Pakistan-US joint air exercise - Falcon Talon III

[MastanKhan]

My humble opinion....4 millions Germans civilians died, millions of Japanese died, thousands of Italians died in WW II, all at the hands of Americans, British, French, Indians, Russians and vice versa still today they do business with each other have strategic alliances, and hold each others debt, and trade and compete with their allies for business across the globe.

This is maturity and real politicking...we need to learn this quickly and better the lot of Pakistanis!!!! Otherwise we destined for the dumps. What is to follow is horrific, global warming, scarcity of water, crop failures, no food, exodus, mass migration of Pakistanis. And no country need to set foot on Pakistani soil to do this!!!

This nation and any other nation exists to better the lot of its citizens and not...sadly because of bad policies, shortsightedness, and poor leaders we have failed in this.

Hi,

Both Germany and Japan are conquered nations by the US military---so basically they are slave nations---.

All the alliances and businesses are entrapments that they cannot get away from---.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Hi,

Both Germany and Japan are conquered nations by the US military---so basically they are slave nations---.

All the alliances and businesses are entrapments that they cannot get away from---.

Hello:

For "Slave" nations they are doing pretty well for themselves and their people!!! The slaves milked US by letting it take care of their defense for decades, meanwhile they built up their economy. That is why Trump is hoping mad at them!!!

This is smart game play form the "Slaves"

 

[MastanKhan]

Hello:

For "Slave" nations they are doing pretty well for themselves and their people!!! The slaves milked US by letting it take care of their defense for decades, meanwhile they built up their economy. That is why Trump is hoping mad at them!!!

This is smart game play form the "Slaves"

Hi,

The US does not allow anyone to 'milk it'---. The US always has an ulterior motive.

By taking care of their defences---the US has made them an IMPOTENT FIGHTING MACHINE---.

The US knows that if the germans or the japanese are left alone by themselves---there is no guarantee that they may not be ready for another major war---.

A Slobodan Milosovic may arise amongst the germans or the japanese and again puts them on a warpath---.

So---the US thinks the money is well spent---. The US manages and maintains its bases far off from mainland US---keeps both these countries from starting trouble once again---that is money well spent---.

The german are getting fat---the japanese have become lazy---.

My brother---please please---never never underestimate the tenacity and futuristic thinking of the ' good ole white boy '---never under estimate the american---.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Hi,

The US does not allow anyone to 'milk it'---. The US always has an ulterior motive.

By taking care of their defences---the US has made them an IMPOTENT FIGHTING MACHINE---.

The US knows that if the germans or the japanese are left alone by themselves---there is no guarantee that they may not be ready for another major war---.

A Slobodan Milosovic may arise amongst the germans or the japanese and again puts them on a warpath---.

So---the US thinks the money is well spent---. The US manages and maintains its bases far off from mainland US---keeps both these countries from starting trouble once again---that is money well spent---.

The german are getting fat---the japanese have become lazy---.

My brother---please please---never never underestimate the tenacity and futuristic thinking of the ' good ole white boy '---never under estimate the american---.

Sir by taking forward the same train of thought....the Germans, Japanese, and the Koreans are dumb asses? Sir i don't think they are. They did what suited them to ensure their revival as significant economic powers. Why put in money on war fighting capability when someone else will do it for u.

And sir i did my bachelor n my master from USA, worked there for many years and to utter surprise of many, i served there too!! So i do know a little about the mind set of Americans and their institutions. And very few people here on this forum can grasp the robustness of US institutions and its policy making apparatus as you have been rightly pointing out in a number of your posts.

What we see today vis a vis India n US, the policy was formulated in late seventies, got delayed due to Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, further delay due to collapse of Soviet union. The plan got started in earnest during Clinton era, then got side tracked due to 9/11 and its fall out and Iraq war. Now the policy formulated good 48 years back is now panning out.

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Hi,

The US does not allow anyone to 'milk it'---. The US always has an ulterior motive.

By taking care of their defences---the US has made them an IMPOTENT FIGHTING MACHINE---.

The US knows that if the germans or the japanese are left alone by themselves---there is no guarantee that they may not be ready for another major war---.

A Slobodan Milosovic may arise amongst the germans or the japanese and again puts them on a warpath---.

So---the US thinks the money is well spent---. The US manages and maintains its bases far off from mainland US---keeps both these countries from starting trouble once again---that is money well spent---.

The german are getting fat---the japanese have become lazy---.

My brother---please please---never never underestimate the tenacity and futuristic thinking of the ' good ole white boy '---never under estimate the american---.

Normally I don't agree with you but in this post, you are 100% correct.

 

[araz]

these r my thoughts too.....in fact the thoughts that represent entity of Pakistan!unlike yr novice and tunnel vision thoughts.

Now address them! Shabash!

and dont give me another tunnel vision.

OK Mr Genius strategic studies student who relies on other people's ideas and calls the Ex ACM Saeen baba and claims that he who has the affairs of the PAF in front of him knows nothing!! Let me indulge you for one post only. I shall quote the posts 99 and 101 and respond to them. By the way from your attitude and mental maturity which you have exhibited in your post, I am old enough to be your Father and it would not go amiss for you to remember that when you address me next

We did pretty well for the past 18 years to defend our homeland against a 5th gen warfare imposed by the US. We had to bleed and sacrifice, but we stood up and looked the enemies straight in the eyes. The US also made use of NATO forces and rougue Indian intelligence apparatus to seek cover. The Americans used every ploy in the book to harm and attack Pakistan. It didn't go well for them. They used brazen Salala like attacks and they also used ethnic and religious faultlines to create chaos. I shouldn't be reiterating any of this because you already know this more than any of us.

No one in their right mind would want a confrontation with US. No one is seeking a confrontation. Ordinary Pakistanis are simply sick and tired of a backstabbing and deceitful relationship with the US. The US is like a bloodsucking leech unwilling to let Pakistan go. The vast majority of Pakistanis want bare minimum relations with the US. The current relationship is just fine where Pakistan is not a client state seeking economic and military aid in exchange for extremely harmful favors. The people want an honest and a cordial relationship with China and the neighborhood. That doesn't equal to confrontation and hostility with the USA.

This exercise means zilch to the broken relationship between Pakistan and the US. The US is clearly recognizing how it has lost the war in Afghanistan. In the process it has utterly destroyed the relationship with Pakistan. To put in perspective, 18 years of bloodshed and carnage to be precise. This amount of destruction and misery cannot be merely fixed with an exercise between PAF and USAF.

By all means go ahead with the exercise, but don't expect relations to be normal. The relationship is broken and dysfunctional on many levels. Pakistan needs to remain neutral at best.

You don't shake hands with someone who tried to rob and kill you. Even if the killer is bigger, stronger and intimidating. As a little guy you keep distance.

The post is reflective of confusion and simple misquoting of facts for the following reason:
The last 18 years mean a period from 2000-2018. There really are 2 different eras in the context of the Afghan war and equating and amalgamating one with the other is falacious. Allow me to elaborate:
I. The first era is 2000 to 20008 when Musharraf ruled the roost. I think it is generally accepted that he gave in too easily and too quickly. A few of the tales coming out from the Corps commander confferences and quoted in the press suggest that giving over of bases to the US was extracted from him. Again he need not have done so. A better deal could have been negotiated. However this is all with hindsight and therefore difficult to comment on. When Pakistan became a part of the WOT and proudly proclaimed how many Afghans its forces had handed over to the terrorists for money it became a Logical and "legitimate" target for the Afghan resistance and its lackiesTTP" who started attacking Targets in Pakistan. The US complied with its part of the deal and paid you your dues. You wanted more and they politely refused saying you have made a bargain. So you were now stuck.
One of the things which is an outcome of wars is production of a generation of people who rely on the gains of war. It seems that it is these people who became the source of much of the ills that prevailed in Pakistan. The Taliban were quick to ostracize them but the behemoth had been created and it was the result of the war rather than the US. IT NEEDS TO BE UNDERSTOOD that a large number if not all of these miscreants were Pakistanis who were just thugs for hire. This is where the RAW came in.
The US interest remained Afghanistan and not Pakistan. So to blame them for your ills is not only illconceived but downright dishonest. What is fact is that US looked after its own interest but we did not.
2. The second phase came 2008 onwards with the realization that the US will not clean our backyard for us. It had its hands full in Afghanistan and wanted to outsource the menial work to anyone who cared to take it on. The Indians took it on for their own nefarious purposes but again utilized Proxies in Pakistan OF PAKISTANI origin. When the realization dawned on the PA It started various operations to clean up its backyardand mined and fenced the border which has brought back relative calm and peace back.
So Umair my assumption is that PA and its leadership in 2000s was very much responsible for what happened to Pakistan subsequently. The US never agreed to clear your backyard for you. If you did not set the rules of the game correctly at the right time and the right price dont blame annyone else for your own lack of hindsight. For instance the mining nad fencing of the border in early 2000s could have negated this whole notion that Pak proxies were involved in attacks on US/allied forces. Again this was done to serve US interests and who would blame them.
The poster again suggest that no one wants to take the US head on. But asserts that the exercise would do Zilch to our broken relationship. However at no place does he say he does not want the exercise to go ahead. In effect he questions the utility of exercise in mending your relations with the US.
Let us expand this further. The exercise in question is a military to military contact and an opportunity to learn from each other. So what value do we place on learning? I think it is good that we learn from each other. Also a direct refusal is rude and would be taken as a snub by the military. US decisions in this theatre are taken on the advice of Pentagon and you want to snub the only hand stretched out towards you, as Donald is clearly not looking:at Paklands with a favourable eye. So how do you see this improving relations?
The otber fact which all Pakistanis fail to understand is international relations are built up on mutual interests. Currently your and the Us interests especially with regards to China are on a collision course and you have rightly indicated that this is not negotiable for you. So if they look after their interest by going to India how is this wrong. The only solution for you is to maintain your relations with the US in light of their need of your help in Afghanistan and you are helping them because it is as much in your interest as in theirs and Afghanistan. The rest ofthe post is based on jingoism which anyone would disregard.
Post 101.

The US can be confronted, depending how much appetite you have for destruction. It is not just our armed forces that are not indoctrinated, prepared, and equipped. We are unprepared as a nation. The armed forces are constituted from the underlying population. There is no magic stick which will take 600000 personnel from an uneducated, poor population, and turn them into modern soldiers of the 21st century.

What I am against is an increasing cronyism between our forces and theirs. At times, this has benefited us greatly, such as the F-16 requested by Gen Zia, or the charisma of Ayub and the resultant concessions. But Ayub experienced the disloyalty in 65, and Zia was eliminated. These two examples should be eye openers. Yet, when I see irreligious, secular minded officers on top spots who are enamored with the West and look up to them as ideals, I fear we have lost without fighting a single battle. I shudder to think of the extent to which America controls the Pakistani Armed Forces. If I let my thought process loose, I even question the public spats we have had. Is it possible that Musharraf clued them about Osama Bin Laden? I clearly remember his address after the Lal Masjid debacle. His words: "And you won't believe the personality that we have found in there". Someone was found in Lal Masjid and transferred to an unknown location, and the matter was never discussed after that. Who was this 'personality'? Even I myself label these thoughts as conspiracy theories, but they make me uncomfortable.

Let me summarize the crux of the entire situation: for a nation that is so intellectually bankrupt and incompetent that it can not solve any of its own national problems, yes, our armed forces need to train with the best, even if the best are our sworn enemies. Without vision, foresight, innovation, rigor, scientific and technical expertise, and a sound financial backing, we cannot assert our own independence. We are mental slaves, and many amongst us are happy to be so. So yes, continue on. But please don't let the Americans assess any of the Chinese technologies.

The first paragraph of this post is regarding taking USA Head on. Well let me tell you you have as much chance of success as a mouse against an elephant(tales aside). You lack political, military, economical and national cohesive power to take US on so forget it. Now that does not mean and has never meant that you cannot disagree with the US policy. International norms give you that right and within reason you can and have already done so. It is good and will probably show you as maturing politically which means you will be able to negotiate from a strategically better position with the US.
The poster goes on to lament how increasing cronyism between forces has been bad for us. Where it has been bad has been because our leaders political and military have chosen their own pockets in favour of national interest. You cannot blame the US for it. It is simply lack of political insight and choosing the easy way out which has become ingrained oin Pakistani psyche, rather than the hard slog which has led us here today. Once again this is Our fault not the US. In military to military relations there are aspects of training and mutual learning. As long as you concentrate on that you are fine. The moment you try and turn this into political/ monetary favours you are owned. When you are owned you are used for the purpose for which you were bought not for national gains by the party buying you.. So lamenting the cronyism because of sticky fingers of your polity and brass is a rather lop sided opinion. If one acts like a hooker you dont lament a sore *** afterwards.
The poster's summary is however spot on and conforms to what I have been saying. When personal gain has preceeded national interests and you have plenty of examples of that in Pak history that is moral bankruptcy and the national suffering as a consequence of these decisions is OUR Faulat and ours alone.
There you go Mr strategic studies student . Now if you have anything further to add to the dabate then please be bothered to pen your thoughts and I shall respond.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

The first paragraph of this post is regarding taking USA Head on. Well let me tell you you have as much chance of success as a mouse against an elephant(tales aside). You lack political, military, economical and national cohesive power to take US on so forget it. Now that does not mean and has never meant that you cannot disagree with the US policy. International norms give you that right and within reason you can and have already done so. It is good and will probably show you as maturing politically which mens:you will be able to negotiate from a strategically better position with the US.

Kindly refrain from addressing me in the third person when you are quoting my own posts. Thank you.

Also, you have a bit of a comprehension issue here. I said the US can be confronted depending on how much appetite for destruction you have. The rest of my post actually explains exactly why the Pakistani nation is ill prepared for such a venture.

The poster goes on to lament how increasijg cronyism between forces has been bad for us. Where it has been bad has been because our leaders political and military have chosen their own pockets in favour of national interest. You cannot blame the US for it. It is simply lack of political insight and choosing the eady way out rather htan the hard slog which has led us here today. Our fault not the US. In military to military relations there are aspects of training and mutual learning. As long as you concentrate on that you are fine. The moment you try and turn this into political/ monetary favours you are owned. When you are owned you are used for the purpose for which you were bought not for national gains. So lamenting the cronyism because of sticky fingers of your polity and brass is a rather lop sided opinion.

So, you are telling me that the US stopped supplies in 65 because Ayub had personal interest? That the US killed Zia because of his sticky fingers?

You know what is one of our biggest problems? It is apologists like yourself who stand ready to defend their American masters. Pakistan is chock full of them. And just like you on this forum, they are on important posts throughout the country. The US has repeatedly sanctioned us, has bought agents from amongst us to act against our vested interests, has attacked our posts, has bombed our population, but above all, it has destroyed our image in the entire world. And you are still finding excuses for chummying up with the yanks? There is only one path to American good books: complete subjugation. Lose your independence, and your sense of self-respect. That's what the Americans want. Your sort don't seem to have any honor or self-respect, but you forget there are others who do.

The poster's summary is however spot on and conforms to what I have been saying. When personal gain has preceeded national interests and you have plenty of examples of that in Pak history that is moral bankruptcy and the national suffering as a consequence of these decisions is OUR Faulat and ours alone.
There you go Mr strategic studies student . Now if you have anything further to add to the dabate then please be bothered to pen your thoughts and I shall respond.
A

In addition to our own flaws, we have enemies who want to see our demise. You sound like a traitor and an enemy agent who is trying to deflect attention from the enemy's machinations. If you could have your way, Pakistan would keep self-flagellating itself, never taking any steps to thwart the subversion of enemies.

 

[araz]

Kindly refrain from addressing me in the third person when you are quoting my own posts. Thank you.

Also, you have a bit of a comprehension issue here. I said the US can be confronted depending on how much appetite for destruction you have. The rest of my post actually explains exactly why the Pakistani nation is ill prepared for such a venture.



So, you are telling me that the US stopped supplies in 65 because Ayub had personal interest? That the US killed Zia because of his sticky fingers?

You know what is one of our biggest problems? It is apologists like yourself who stand ready to defend their American masters. Pakistan is chock full of them. And just like you on this forum, they are on important posts throughout the country. The US has repeatedly sanctioned us, has bought agents from amongst us to act against our vested interests, has attacked our posts, has bombed our population, but above all, it has destroyed our image in the entire world. And you are still finding excuses for chummying up with the yanks? There is only one path to American good books: complete subjugation. Lose your independence, and your sense of self-respect. That's what the Americans want. Your sort don't seem to have any honor or self-respect, but you forget there are others who do.



In addition to our own flaws, we have enemies who want to see our demise. You sound like a traitor and an enemy agent who is trying to deflect attention from the enemy's machinations. If you could have your way, Pakistan would keep self-flagellating itself, never taking any steps to thwart the subversion of enemies.

I do apologize. This was not intended for you and the analysis was forced on me by a certain strategic studies student who was rather crass. I was forced to analyze post 99 and 101. Once again this is not normal practice and my hand was forced for which I tender my unreserved apologies.
Now to your points.
US confrontation is a vague term and needs to be expanded. Do you want to confront the Aus Militarily? If so do you really need an answer here. Remember you are not in proximity of any US areas so there wont be much left afterwards I have alluded to the confrontation on a political front which I agree can be and should be done. But there are norms of civility not blatant snubs which would be akin to political suicide.
Please understand that there was a reason for US bolstering Ayub. This was to confront the Communists in USSR and China. It was never intended to wage war against India. Secondly it is international norm that you suspend military supplies in zones of Conflict. There are other examples of it in France/stopping our M3 Roses and delaying theAugusta sub. So US followed international protocol and reminded Pakland that it had bolstered it against USSR and CHINA rather than India.
Zia's killing MAY have been orchestrated by US. WE DO NOT HAVE ANY Proof beyond heresay. If you believe in heresay then understand the bombs were planted in Pakistan by Pakistani hands. So why blame the US when your own hands are dirty.
You call me an apologist yet fail to see the logic behind my post. If you think Iam an apologist create a scenario where you will bring this nation out atcthe other end without murder and mayhem or frank destruction. I believe it is called pragmatism. It is the same trait which is adopted by nations who cannot match the political and military consequences of their rash decisions. NO Mr Critical thought I am not an apologist but someone who has seen the destruction of this nation from mid sixties onwards, sat down and wat hed our beloved country being dismembered and the very bastards who were responsible for it claiiming how it was the treachery of the Bengalis which led to this dismemberment. I have seen the day Zia came to power his first speech promising elections 90 days later and his janaza 2hile still cling9ng on to power. I have seen the political implants who subsequently came to power who never had the right or intellect to lead the country and the consequences of it. I have seen the currsncy decline so that a Toyota car that was valued brand new at 23000 Rs became 45000Rs overnight. I have seen the carnage in the i0s in Karachi when you left home with no assurance that you will return. So please dont think I have read a bbook here and there and am talking based on learnt knowledge. I have lived the times I am talking about.
You also forgot to mention how your final paragraph was entirely spot on and in congruity with what I have been saying. So we both got to the same end result just via different routes. However I am an enemy agent and a traitor when I do not have a view point which is similar to yours. SubhanAllah! No my friend I have merely shown you a mirror of the reality. A reality where your own people are found wanting and have sold this nation repeatedly and mercilessly with no regards for the consequences. It is these very people who claim everything is orchestrated via outside hands. Let me ask you did Indian or!US mothers give birth to the scum that!subsequently became the TTP. No Sir you cannot blame anyone who serves its national interests when you and your and miy own country men have sold it to the doge.

A

 

[CriticalThought]

I do apologize. This was not intended for you and the analysis was forced on me by a certain strategic studies student who was rather crass. I was forced to analyze post 99 and 101. Once again this is not normal practice and my hand was forced for which I tender my unreserved apologies.
Now to your points.
US confrontation is a vague term and needs to be expanded. Do you want to confront the Aus Militarily? If so do you really need an answer here. Remember you are not in proximity of any US areas so there wont be much left afterwards I have alluded to the confrontation on a political front which I agree can be and should be done. But there are norms of civility not blatant snubs which would be akin to political suicide.
Please understand that there was a reason for US bolstering Ayub. This was to confront the Communists in USSR and China. It was never intended to wage war against India. Secondly it is international norm that you suspend military supplies in zones of Conflict. There are other examples of it in France/stopping our M3 Roses and delaying theAugusta sub. So US followed international protocol and reminded Pakland that it had bolstered it against USSR and CHINA rather than India.
Zia's killing MAY have been orchestrated by US. WE DO NOT HAVE ANY Proof beyond heresay. If you believe in heresay then understand the bombs were planted in Pakistan by Pakistani hands. So why blame the US when your own hands are dirty.
You call me an apologist yet fail to see the logic behind my post. If you think Iam an apologist create a scenario where you will bring this nation out atcthe other end without murder and mayhem or frank destruction. I believe it is called pragmatism. It is the same trait which is adopted by nations who cannot match the political and military consequences of their rash decisions. NO Mr Critical thought I am not an apologist but someone who has seen the destruction of this nation from mid sixties onwards, sat down and wat hed our beloved country being dismembered and the very bastards who were responsible for it claiiming how it was the treachery of the Bengalis which led to this dismemberment. I have seen the day Zia came to power his first speech promising elections 90 days later and his janaza 2hile still cling9ng on to power. I have seen the political implants who subsequently came to power who never had the right or intellect to lead the country and the consequences of it. I have seen the currsncy decline so that a Toyota car that was valued brand new at 23000 Rs became 45000Rs overnight. I have seen the carnage in the i0s in Karachi when you left home with no assurance that you will return. So please dont think I have read a bbook here and there and am talking based on learnt knowledge. I have lived the times I am talking about.
You also forgot to mention how your final paragraph was entirely spot on and in congruity with what I have been saying. So we both got to the same end result just via different routes. However I am an enemy agent and a traitor when I do not have a view point which is similar to yours. SubhanAllah! No my friend I have merely shown you a mirror of the reality. A reality where your own people are found wanting and have sold this nation repeatedly and mercilessly with no regards for the consequences. It is these very people who claim everything is orchestrated via outside hands. Let me ask you did Indian or!US mothers give birth to the scum that!subsequently became the TTP. No Sir you cannot blame anyone who serves its national interests when you and your and miy own country men have sold it to the doge.

A

So an enemy out to destroy you buys influence through your countrymen. You concentrate on lambasting your countrymen, while ignoring the enemy?

Let's see how everyone else deals with this. If a traitor is caught selling state secrets or facilitating the enemy, the traitor is killed AND measures are taken to thwart the enemy. In communist countries this is achieved through absolute control and monitoring. In 'democratic' countries it is done by counter-espionage and counter-subversion, the collapse of U.S.S.R. being a prime example. No one simply ignores the enemy, or worse, tries to become friendly with them.

Let's make it crystal clear the point on which we are arguing. I don't disagree with holding the exercise itself. I disagree on becoming friends with the Americans. Being 'friendly' implies trust. That implies letting them interact with sensitive equipment such as our Chinese AEWACS. This would be suicidal. Similarly, letting them assess the Thunder, especially given the kind of ELINT capabilities they have. There is absolutely no benefit in doing that.

 

[araz]

So an enemy out to destroy you buys influence through your countrymen. You concentrate on lambasting your countrymen, while ignoring the enemy?

Let's see how everyone else deals with this. If a traitor is caught selling state secrets or facilitating the enemy, the traitor is killed AND measures are taken to thwart the enemy. In communist countries this is achieved through absolute control and monitoring. In 'democratic' countries it is done by counter-espionage and counter-subversion, the collapse of U.S.S.R. being a prime example. No one simply ignores the enemy, or worse, tries to become friendly with them.

Let's make it crystal clear the point on which we are arguing. I don't disagree with holding the exercise itself. I disagree on becoming friends with the Americans. Being 'friendly' implies trust. That implies letting them interact with sensitive equipment such as our Chinese AEWACS. This would be suicidal. Similarly, letting them assess the Thunder, especially given the kind of ELINT capabilities they have. There is absolutely no benefit in doing that.

Your first post is a different topic altogether. As I have repeatedly said you are responsible for the actions you take. You may blame XYand Z but the fact remains you carried out the action. The same logic applies to the fact that Shaitan incites you to do haram. You commit Haram then say on youm al qiyama the Shaitan incited me to it. Will it be accepted.l? You cannot assign blame to others when your own hands commited the sin.
Let me be crystal clear since you have been candid. This whole thread was about holding the exercise with the US air force. You and I are essentially in agreement that it can go ahead.
I also need you to be very clear in qualifying the term Friendship in the norms of International relationshipsnot in the norms of your mohalla while having a gilli danda match or playing whatever you guys play on playstations together. This is a very naive word and for the purpose of determining international relationships you need to delete it from your vocabilary. There are NO friends in international relationships.
You are aware of the close relations between US and Israel. If they are so close then why does Israel spy on the US and Why does the US deny the Israelis the opportunity to manufacture the Lavi fighter. The only reasons nations are friendly is because of converging interests. This is the crux to this whole confusion and applies to any international relationship. We fought the USSR in the 70s and were insteumental in their defeat. So why is RUSSIA coming closer to Pakistan. China had serious concerns over its relationship with Pakistan in the late 50s and early 60s. So how come they are good friends now. You cannot equate things in black and white. As to your interests it is your responsibility to look after your ijterests not the ogher nation. If someone for their own petty means is willing to sell his nation down the drain the fault is that individual's not the buyung nation as it looks after its interest.
So why am I saying we should adopt a soft stance? Well simply because there is a norm of conducting international relations. Even if you say No you have to do it with a smiling face. People and nations theeaten each other coerce, buy and blackmail its leadership and , if necessary wage war against each other to guard their interests. Within these extremes are a sphere of national conduct. If you play Chess you will understand the concept of sacrificing to gain. All I am suggesting is maintain international norms and get any possible benefit out of it for the nation. You dont have to be chummy with each other but you dont have to approqch each other with aggressive postures. The Goras( the British) are such masters of it. You really need to see how they function and learn from it.
A

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Well said Araz Sahib. Btw Pakistan, when put into such position, did the same with Afghanistan back in the early nineties.

Lot of members here need to grow up I am 55 years old saw the debacle of East Pakistan, Jamat e Islami the darling of US against communism back 50's and 60's. And the lies our leaders spewed out after 71' about how US let us down. When infact it was far from the truth...they saved what was left of the rest of Pakistan. Indira was on a high and wanted to go to guns on the western borders too, in earnest.

Very few people know that China, both in 65' and 71' did not help us much. They advised us to go for guerrilla warfare after we are defeated by the Indian in 65'!! In 71' they refused to move their divisions to the border with India in fear that USSR might move onto them. Thus Indian army used its mountain divisions taken off of Northern borders and pushed them into Chittagong hill tract as locals.

The fingering in Afghanistan which led to the invasion of Afghanistan by USSR was instigated by MR. Bhutto. We knew Rabbani, Burhani Hikmatyar and Ahmed Shah Masoud way before the invasion!!!

The list goes on....The real face of thnigs is a lot different from what we see here on this forum. A lot of folks here need to grow up, read history from a lot different angles and then come to terms on what is fact an what is fiction.

65' was a disaster. We read the whole thing wrong and when US did not react the way we had predicted, wrongly, we got mad at them!! We predicted that India would not cross the International border, they did. We predicted that the Kashmirs would rise up support the incursion, they did not do as predicted despite ground intel gathered by SSG's who infiltrated in IOK that there is not popular ground swell!!!

Why blame others for our own inadequacies as leaders and as a cohesive and vibrant nation. Always believing in "sazishes" as convenient scapegoat for our own failures.

 

[AMG_12]

Well said Araz Sahib. Btw Pakistan, when put into such position, did the same with Afghanistan back in the early nineties.

Lot of members here need to grow up I am 55 years old saw the debacle of East Pakistan, Jamat e Islami the darling of US against communism back 50's and 60's. And the lies our leaders spewed out after 71' about how US let us down. When infact it was far from the truth...they saved what was left of the rest of Pakistan. Indira was on a high and wanted to go to guns on the western borders too, in earnest.

Very few people know that China, both in 65' and 71' did not help us much. They advised us to go for guerrilla warfare after we are defeated by the Indian in 65'!! In 71' they refused to move their divisions to the border with India in fear that USSR might move onto them. Thus Indian army used its mountain divisions taken off of Northern borders and pushed them into Chittagong hill tract as locals.

The fingering in Afghanistan which led to the invasion of Afghanistan by USSR was instigated by MR. Bhutto. We knew Rabbani, Burhani Hikmatyar and Ahmed Shah Masoud way before the invasion!!!

The list goes on....The real face of thnigs is a lot different from what we see here on this forum. A lot of folks here need to grow up, read history from a lot different angles and then come to terms on what is fact an what is fiction.

65' was a disaster. We read the whole thing wrong and when US did not react the way we had predicted, wrongly, we got mad at them!! We predicted that India would not cross the International border, they did. We predicted that the Kashmirs would rise up support the incursion, they did not do as predicted despite ground intel gathered by SSG's who infiltrated in IOK that there is not popular ground swell!!!

Why blame others for our own inadequacies as leaders and as a cohesive and vibrant nation. Always believing in "sazishes" as convenient scapegoat for our own failures.

Most members here are blinded by a nationalism they know very little of. IMO, we lack political realism. Thank you for your valuable insight.

 

[araz]

Well said Araz Sahib. Btw Pakistan, when put into such position, did the same with Afghanistan back in the early nineties.

Lot of members here need to grow up I am 55 years old saw the debacle of East Pakistan, Jamat e Islami the darling of US against communism back 50's and 60's. And the lies our leaders spewed out after 71' about how US let us down. When infact it was far from the truth...they saved what was left of the rest of Pakistan. Indira was on a high and wanted to go to guns on the western borders too, in earnest.

Very few people know that China, both in 65' and 71' did not help us much. They advised us to go for guerrilla warfare after we are defeated by the Indian in 65'!! In 71' they refused to move their divisions to the border with India in fear that USSR might move onto them. Thus Indian army used its mountain divisions taken off of Northern borders and pushed them into Chittagong hill tract as locals.

The fingering in Afghanistan which led to the invasion of Afghanistan by USSR was instigated by MR. Bhutto. We knew Rabbani, Burhani Hikmatyar and Ahmed Shah Masoud way before the invasion!!!

The list goes on....The real face of thnigs is a lot different from what we see here on this forum. A lot of folks here need to grow up, read history from a lot different angles and then come to terms on what is fact an what is fiction.

65' was a disaster. We read the whole thing wrong and when US did not react the way we had predicted, wrongly, we got mad at them!! We predicted that India would not cross the International border, they did. We predicted that the Kashmirs would rise up support the incursion, they did not do as predicted despite ground intel gathered by SSG's who infiltrated in IOK that there is not popular ground swell!!!

Why blame others for our own inadequacies as leaders and as a cohesive and vibrant nation. Always believing in "sazishes" as convenient scapegoat for our own failures.

A few tidbits here to add to your excellent post. As to 65 a few earstwhile kashmiri leaders took hefty amounts of money from Pak Government for inciting unrest in Kashmir . But then true to their colours went home and slept at the cost of 30k Pakistani soldiers infiltrated into Kashmir who were butchered. During the last days of 65 the Indians captured Haji pir. They were within shelling distance of Islamabad. Which made the great Ayub khan not so great and he persued peace.
That bastard Bhutto not only tore the last chance of peace in Eastern front of Pakistan(thereby avoiding dismemberement of pakistan in 1971) by rejecting and tearing the polish resolution in the UN. He apparently also misinformed the PK Government about the possibility of Chinese help. The Chinese had apparently advised him to wait till March April before starting the war and delay things by all means possible. He blatantly lied to the Pak junta and told them a lie about the Chinese agreement. I think this maybe what you were pointing out. The things we have seen in our lives @Aamir Hussain saheb and yet every genius on the net has the right to call us enemy agent, apologist, etc. That surely makes me happy.
A

 

[MastanKhan]

Sir by taking forward the same train of thought....the Germans, Japanese, and the Koreans are dumb asses? Sir i don't think they are. They did what suited them to ensure their revival as significant economic powers. Why put in money on war fighting capability when someone else will do it for u.

And sir i did my bachelor n my master from USA, worked there for many years and to utter surprise of many, i served there too!! So i do know a little about the mind set of Americans and their institutions. And very few people here on this forum can grasp the robustness of US institutions and its policy making apparatus as you have been rightly pointing out in a number of your posts.

What we see today vis a vis India n US, the policy was formulated in late seventies, got delayed due to Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, further delay due to collapse of Soviet union. The plan got started in earnest during Clinton era, then got side tracked due to 9/11 and its fall out and Iraq war. Now the policy formulated good 48 years back is now panning out.

Hi,

It has happened because pakistan has not marketed itself properly---.

None of them are dumb assess---but they are caught in the web---.

The US may not have as much control over south Korea---. If the threat of no Korea is gone---so Koreas is gone from the US influence---.

Japan and Germany are still US protectorates---.

 

[Readerdefence]

A few tidbits here. As to 65 a few earstwhile leaders took hefty amounts of money from Pak Government for inciting unrest in Kashmir . But then true to their colours went home and slept at the cost of 30k Pakistani soldiers infiltrated into Kashmir who were butchered. During the last days of 65 the Indians captured Haji pir. They were within shelling distance of Islamabad. Which made the great Ayub khan not so great and he persued peace.
That bastard Bhutto not only tore the last chance of peace in Eastern front of Pakistan by rejecting and tearing the polish resolution in the UN. He apparently also misinformed the PK Government aboutthe possibility of Chinese help. The Chinese had apparently advised him to wait till March April efore starting the war and delay thi gs by all means possible. He blatantly lied to the Pak junta and told them a lie about the Chinese agreement. I think this maybe what you were pointing out. The things we have seen in our lives @Aamir Hussain saheb and yet every genius on the net has the right to call us enemy agent, apologist, etc. That surely makes me happy.
A

Hi Araz
I hope you don’t mind answering me about what happened in 62 when Chinese were asking us to invade Kashmir as Indians were busy with Chinese
And if we didn’t act at that time is it right to blame Chinese about not supporting us in 65
Now I’m not blaming you but your are very learned member on this forum would you like
To shed some light regarding about my Q
Thank you