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Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

Loooool ok
Patterns can be overlooked when required. Following patterns means you become predictable

When Pakistan induct system which bring new capabilities to the region then we usually don't announce it or its down played, and NGF can not be kept secret or its capabilities down played so India will go shopping for NGF before producing in house with good economy they will be able to bring balance in their favor.
 
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@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
Looks like there is a private company ( Scaled Aviation pvt Limited) manufacturing dual seat trainers and personal civilian light aircrafts under licence
It has nothing special but when i was reading about Air Marshal Farhat Hussain Khan Retd. (He is sitting chairman of Scaled Aviation pvt Limited and has remained Cheif Project Director of JF 17 project) ,i came to know that they are trying to indiginously develop a six seat civilian air craft. This is positive news and a step in right direction i think.

What you guys think,can they develop it?
 
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@JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
Looks like there is a private company ( Scaled Aviation pvt Limited) manufacturing dual seat trainers and personal civilian light aircrafts under licence
It has nothing special but when i was reading about Air Marshal Farhat Hussain Khan Retd. (He is sitting chairman of Scaled Aviation pvt Limited and has remained Cheif Project Director of JF 17 project) ,i came to know that they are trying to indiginously develop a six seat civilian air craft. This is positive news and a step in right direction i think.

What you guys think,can they develop it?
Lol no. They assemble imported kit aircraft. This is something people do in their backyards in the US. A friend of mine worked with them for a year with promise of full-time position. They got free work from him for a year. Then he left. It was probably my friend's fault for staying that long too but you get the feel for what this company is.
 
I wouldn't even factor in any other university other than NUST into the whole equation. That in itself is the crux of the problem. We don't have any private or public university capable of venturing into a bold R&D venture. While EME might have some semblance of infrastructure, military men bring with them a culture, a thought-process and a way of live that just snubs any R&D/innovation out of students and the civilian faculty.

I am really sorry to say this but every fauji-engineer working at PAC, EME, studying at post-grad level in SMME, or present in an administrative capacity in NUST (I have come across) has struck me as rather stupid. Like actually stupid. Engineering was not one of their forte. I've been extremely skeptical about this aviation city crap that airforce wants to start. It is most certainly an extra-ordinary vision but the ground realities are not changed simply by vision.

Also, for some reason, Pakistani institutions believe that Maths is an unnecessary skill set for an engineer. SNS used to supply the Math professors in entire NUST and you know who went to SNS? The ones who failed in getting into any other engineering discipline! Honestly, the only reason why I cant achieve more right now is because my math sucks, even though I am an engineer! and graduated in the top 10 of the class at SMME! I can say the same for every other graduate coming out of Pakistani schools. The fundamentals are weak in Pakistan and there is no realisation of this. Maths was just a personal example that is holding me back.
Trust me, I get exactly what you mean and I couldn’t have said it better. I don’t really blame army engineers for being how they are because they’re trained to be that way, they’re meant to be army officers with engineering knowledge and not engineers with officer training, if you get what I mean. They do what they’re supposed to do well, but we won’t get any research out of them, (or anyone else for that matter) not until we fundamentally change the entire system from the ground up.

At CEME almost all the research is being done by the non-army faculty (and there’s some very brilliant minds in there, as I’m sure there are in SMME, SEECS etc as well).
From what I’ve noticed, the only time actual military guys do research and development work here is when the military actively needs something, it’s like a massive catalyst getting stuff done, however that’s a rare occurrence, unlike in some more developed nations where doing research is a full time job and continues 365 days a year, in Pakistan it’s a seasonal thing for when something is needed, hence funding is given, otherwise it’s always on hold.
 
Anyone who discounts Pakistans contribution and fails to understand how immensely Turkey gains from this is either a newb or a professional Indiot.

Pakistan designed, manufactered, and incrementally upgraded a 4.5th generation fighter from scratch since the last 2 decades. Whether help/input was taken from Northrop (US) or China (CAC), it does not matter. At the end of the day Pakistan has solid engineers/scientist in the aviation sector that have more experience than 95% of countries in the world. In this day and age, manpower/labour is the most important commodity even more than money. With such high inflation and shortage of workers even with massive funds many countries/companies simply cannot find workers. Pakistan does not have this issue due to the abundance of engineers.

Turkey has little options. Its relations with the US, Russia, and China are all at the lowest point in history. You be the judge. Pakistan will get a 5th generation fighter by 2030 with or without Turkey, but I doubt Turkey can without Pakistan.
 
Trust me, I get exactly what you mean and I couldn’t have said it better. I don’t really blame army engineers for being how they are because they’re trained to be that way, they’re meant to be army officers with engineering knowledge and not engineers with officer training, if you get what I mean. They do what they’re supposed to do well, but we won’t get any research out of them, (or anyone else for that matter) not until we fundamentally change the entire system from the ground up.

At CEME almost all the research is being done by the non-army faculty (and there’s some very brilliant minds in there, as I’m sure there are in SMME, SEECS etc as well).
From what I’ve noticed, the only time actual military guys do research and development work here is when the military actively needs something, it’s like a massive catalyst getting stuff done, however that’s a rare occurrence, unlike in some more developed nations where doing research is a full time job and continues 365 days a year, in Pakistan it’s a seasonal thing for when something is needed, hence funding is given, otherwise it’s always on hold.
Any hope when this system will change or any signs of improvement???
 
This would make the most sense IMO. I think a strike-based TFX would come much later -- like mid-to-late 2030s -- but it would create more time for Turkey to develop its indigenous engine. Moreover, the PAF can probably keep closing capability gaps with additional J-10CEs and JF-17 B/Block-3-based variants (especially if the latter's slated to use a new engine).
Or PAF can induct limited J31/J35 post 2025 till PAC variant of TFX materialized
 
When Pakistan induct system which bring new capabilities to the region then we usually don't announce it or its down played, and NGF can not be kept secret or its capabilities down played so India will go shopping for NGF before producing in house with good economy they will be able to bring balance in their favor.
My dear if you just are a reactive nation you will die. If you are proactive you will plan well ahead for the future. This is why developed nations are years ahead of the game
 
My dear if you just are a reactive nation you will die. If you are proactive you will plan well ahead for the future. This is why developed nations are years ahead of the game

I just posted the reality on ground and that have worked till now since 70 years, also if you want an active posture then please bring economic independence first.
 
@The Eagle I think you may have been premature in locking the Azm thread and making this the primary thread. I don't think we've had any official confirmation of TFX being the Turkey-Pakistan fighter. I really think Temil Kotil was playing to the gallery - this is the view widely shared by Turkish members as well. I am not saying there is no collaboration, but it is premature to say that TFX has become Turkey-Pakistan fighter.
Dear,
AZM thread is locked temporarily and for totally different reasons. This topic here is from totally discussion point of view based on what's being said and we all are not claiming it to be an official news. Like you, me and everyone else, can discuss and analyze situation etc. In a few days or a week probably, you will see why a separate thread is created for this collaboration and how we are expanding AZM project. I have said it repeatedly that AZM is not abandoned nor terminated or anything in regard to call it dead. Wait for a while and you will see the reason as well. An idea is floated and team is discussing.
 
AZM thread is locked temporarily and for totally different reasons. This topic here is from totally discussion point of view based on what's being said and we all are not claiming it to be an official news. Like you, me and everyone else, can discuss and analyze situation etc. In a few days or a week probably, you will see why a separate thread is created for this collaboration and how we are expanding AZM project. I have said it repeatedly that AZM is not abandoned nor terminated or anything in regard to call it dead. Wait for a while and you will see the reason as well. An idea is floated and team is discussing.
As long as it is temporary that's fine thanks.
 
I just posted the reality on ground and that have worked till now since 70 years, also if you want an active posture then please bring economic independence first.
To date you are correct. That's what has been happening
 
we've been discussing the modalities of possible collaboration between Pakistan and Turkey for years on the Azm thread but one TV interview later the forum has woken up to that discussion and rehashing all of that discussion now lol. I suggest everyone who didn't read the Azm thread before the TV show to go read that thread and be amazed at how what you're about to say here was already discussed to death on that thread lol.

Even ACM Sohail Aman hinted towards what's being said by TAI CEO but nobody paid much attention since nothing was told with confirmation. This is internet my friend. Everyone has the liberty to share opinion and freedom to believe it or not.
 

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