Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

[Ali_Baba]

We are not talking about 2022
We are talking about the TFX with indigenous turbofan Engine in 2035


Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world

in 2018 Turkey has started developing indigenous turbofan Engine to power the TFX in 2035.( we will see the first prototype of indigenous turbofan Engine in 2026 )


HURJET
HURJET is under production which is simiilar capability to JAS Gripen and HAL Tejas Fighter Jets

TFX
Turkey has started producing the TFX for roll out on 18 march 2023. and first flight on 18 march 2025

-- TAI's advanced carbon composites fuselage facility which was commissioned to produce fuselages for F-35 program

-- ASELSAN GaN based AESA Radar

-- ASELSAN avionics and equipment
Radar warning receiver (RWR)
Missile warning system (MWS)
Laser warning system (LWS)
Digital radio frequency memory (DRFM)-based jamming system
Advanced Navigation Features (ICNI)
Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS)
Infrared Search and Track (IRST),
Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)


-- TUBITAK-SAGE / ROKETSAN air to air Missiles
BOZDOGAN WVR infrared homing
GOKDOGAN BVR active radar homing
GOKHAN ramjet engined BVR active radar homing

-- TRMOTOR turbofan Engine ( Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 Engines )

One of the most difficult parts of building a fast military jet alongside the engine, is to build a quadruplex digital FBW for an unstable airframe, and one that Turkey will have had to have build from the ground up for both the Hurjet(where i assume it is a stable design ? ) and one for the TFX which will be an unstable design. I think BAe will have helped in this space alot as BAe is an expert in FBW's ..

The Hurjet is due its maiden flight in 2023 so that will form a good testing bed for the work being done on the TFX. It will be good to see Turkey "tick" that box next year for the FBW and once you have one, then you can spawn off custom variants for different platforms.

I do think that Turkey has been very smart and has acquired all of the technology pieces it needs to built a fighter jet, and the technical challenge remaining is not as much as some people are suggesting it is. BAe is helping Turkey and leveraging that experience for the Tempest programme alongside. Engine is an unknown as we have all said, but Turkey has enough knowledge to make it a problem it can resolve. The engine is the only piece of the puzzle left, a significant one but still the only major piece.

( .. and if the USAF wants to continue to have exercises with the PAF and keep that relationship alive in a post-F16 world - it too has to see TFX succeed as PAF is not buying another USA fighter jet platform, and i dont see PAF going for an EU origin plane from France - and there is a mild chance of Tempest if the Indians dont get there first ...).

 

[Big_bud]

One of the most difficult parts of building a fast military jet alongside the engine, is to build a quadruplex digital FBW for an unstable airframe, and one that Turkey will have had to have build from the ground up for both the Hurjet(where i assume it is a stable design ? ) and one for the TFX which will be an unstable design. I think BAe will have helped in this space alot as BAe is an expert in FBW's ..

The Hurjet is due its maiden flight in 2023 so that will form a good testing bed for the work being done on the TFX. It will be good to see Turkey "tick" that box next year for the FBW and once you have one, then you can spawn off custom variants for different platforms.

I do think that Turkey has been very smart and has acquired all of the technology pieces it needs to built a fighter jet, and the technical challenge remaining is not as much as some people are suggesting it is. BAe is helping Turkey and leveraging that experience for the Tempest programme alongside. Engine is an unknown as we have all said, but Turkey has enough knowledge to make it a problem it can resolve. The engine is the only piece of the puzzle left, a significant one but still the only major piece.

( .. and if the USAF wants to continue to have exercises with the PAF and keep that relationship alive in a post-F16 world - it too has to see TFX succeed as PAF is not buying another USA fighter jet platform, and i dont see PAF going for an EU origin plane from France - and there is a mild chance of Tempest if the Indians dont get there first ...).

It seems Turkey's main plan was to get a lot of key technologies from Europe, sign up various contracts & get experts on board. Rolls Royce already pulled out of the project. GE was not interesting in offering their engines. A collaboration for obtaining Russian engines was also revealed. 11 years for the project however it is still in phase 1, stage 1 preliminary design works. There has been a couple of MOUs signed, partnerships announced, a mock presented but so far we are not aware if there has been some real progress. And the problem is, with US pressure all those European companies can pull out anytime.

Pakistan should keep close partnership with the Chinese and not loose that in the process. While continue to work with Turkey, its a gamble but hopefully Pakistani aviation industry would also grow and learn in the process. Long road ahead, have to wait and watch!

 

[dBSPL]

You can support Pakistan not to take part in this project. If you ask my opinion, I'm closer to this group in principle, it's too late for some things now. Turkiye does not have the luxury of wasting time by entering into such a contract negotiation.

However, it is not really ethical behavior to spread false information to creating support this, or simply to write as if you know something about subjects you have never researched.

 

[prokion]

They will need many more years of experiences on a cluster of wind tunnels with each built to serve a specific test purpose, proven mathematical models extracted from reliable wind tunnel test data, strong R&D capability of advanced metal/composite materials and, of course, a capable engine without the fear being sanction by the west. I have intentionally excluded those electronic stuff from consideration to make it look easier. Still all those included items are top secrets for all major world powers.

Turkey alone is less experienced than India as India has partly proved itself by developing and flying Tejas, even though that design mostly came from the Frenches.

Can Turkey use the Frenches? No. France and Turkey are sort of hostile to each other with regards to the Greeks. Turkey is neither a good friend to any other world powers which are good at developing aircrafts. So they have to do it all on their own. Good luck to them for that!

40 years + for tejas and rejected by iaf. Now you question Turkey

Rejected? which year are you living in?

We are not talking about 2022
We are talking about the TFX with indigenous turbofan Engine in 2035


Turkey has developed TEI TS-1400 gas turbine engine which is only a few countries in the world

in 2018 Turkey has started developing indigenous turbofan Engine to power the TFX in 2035.( we will see the first prototype of indigenous turbofan Engine in 2026 )


HURJET
HURJET is under production which is simiilar capability to JAS Gripen and HAL Tejas Fighter Jets

TFX
Turkey has started producing the TFX for roll out on 18 march 2023. and first flight on 18 march 2025

-- TAI's advanced carbon composites fuselage facility which was commissioned to produce fuselages for F-35 program

-- ASELSAN GaN based AESA Radar

-- ASELSAN avionics and equipment
Radar warning receiver (RWR)
Missile warning system (MWS)
Laser warning system (LWS)
Digital radio frequency memory (DRFM)-based jamming system
Advanced Navigation Features (ICNI)
Integrated Electro-Optical Systems (IEOS)
Infrared Search and Track (IRST),
Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS)


-- TUBITAK-SAGE / ROKETSAN air to air Missiles
BOZDOGAN WVR infrared homing
GOKDOGAN BVR active radar homing
GOKHAN ramjet engined BVR active radar homing

-- TRMOTOR turbofan Engine ( Prototypes will be equipped with General Electric F110 Engines )

TAI hurjet is not similar to Tejas or jf-17. The latter are fighter jets while Hurjet is an advanced supesonic trainer jet.

 

[TOYGAN]

Turkey has little options. Its relations with the US, Russia, and China are all at the lowest point in history. You be the judge. Pakistan will get a 5th generation fighter by 2030 with or without Turkey, but I doubt Turkey can without Pakistan.

Pakistan has no technology to give 5th gen Fighter and turbofan engine technologies to Turkey

dont worry , without Pakistan
Turkey will have its own 5th gen Fighter Jet with turbofan engine , Supersonic stealth unmanned Fighter Jet , heavy Attack Helicopter , Airborne stand off Jammer Aircraft , High altitude Air Defense System , Balistic Missile Defense System , Destroyer , AIP Submarine , Aircraft Carrier in 2030s

 

[TOYGAN]

TAI hurjet is not similar to Tejas or jf-17. The latter are fighter jets while Hurjet is an advanced supesonic trainer jet.

I am not talking about JF-17 , but HAL Tejas

HURJET will have Fighter Jet variant equipped with AESA Radar , air to air missiles and air to ground missiles/guided bombs


HURJET
Lenght : 13 m
Max speed : mach 1,4
Range : 2.220 km
G limits : +8/-3
Engine : General Electric F404-GE-102

TEJAS
Lenght : 13,2 m
Max speed : mach 1,6
Range : 1.850 km
G limits : +8/-3.5
Engine : General Electric F404-GE-IN20

 

[SD 10]

Pakistan has no technology to give 5th gen Fighter and turbofan engine technologies to Turkey

dont worry , without Pakistan
Turkey will have its own 5th gen Fighter Jet with turbofan engine , Supersonic stealth unmanned Fighter Jet , heavy Attack Helicopter , Airborne stand off Jammer Aircraft , High altitude Air Defense System , Balistic Missile Defense System , Destroyer , AIP Submarine , Aircraft Carrier in 2030s

we dont give a damn... Good luck!

 

[GiantPanda]

China is finally officially pushing the FC-31 for export. And a medium engine line (probably WS-13E) was completed for mass production last year.

The PLAAF/PLANAF don't even use a medium engine -- though that would change in the future with J-35. But that class of engine is what the TFX and AZM (and AMCA and KFX for that matter) were designed around.

China establishes office to promote exports of the FC-31 stealth fighter - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

China completes construction of medium-thrust aeroengine production line - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

China is setting themselves up for a partnership in the stealth fighter space.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

China is finally officially pushing the FC-31 for export. And a medium engine line (probably WS-13E) was completed for mass production last year.

The PLAAF/PLANAF don't even use a medium engine -- though that would change in the future with J-35. But that class of engine is what the TFX and AZM (and AMCA and KFX for that matter) were designed around.

China establishes office to promote exports of the FC-31 stealth fighter - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

China completes construction of medium-thrust aeroengine production line - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

China is setting themselves up for a partnership in the stealth fighter space.

@tphuang Does this mean there's no "export J-35" but simply J-35 and FC-31?

 

[Trango Towers]

Pakistan has no technology to give 5th gen Fighter and turbofan engine technologies to Turkey

dont worry , without Pakistan
Turkey will have its own 5th gen Fighter Jet with turbofan engine , Supersonic stealth unmanned Fighter Jet , heavy Attack Helicopter , Airborne stand off Jammer Aircraft , High altitude Air Defense System , Balistic Missile Defense System , Destroyer , AIP Submarine , Aircraft Carrier in 2030s

Sounds like a frustrated Indian poster pretending to be Turkish

 

[PakShaheen79]

Pakistan has no technology to give 5th gen Fighter and turbofan engine technologies to Turkey

dont worry , without Pakistan
Turkey will have its own 5th gen Fighter Jet with turbofan engine , Supersonic stealth unmanned Fighter Jet , heavy Attack Helicopter , Airborne stand off Jammer Aircraft , High altitude Air Defense System , Balistic Missile Defense System , Destroyer , AIP Submarine , Aircraft Carrier in 2030s

Yes, Turkey can build all of those without Pakistan and, I am saying this seriously. But if you listen to the words of TAI's chief there is a big elephant in the room which can't be ignored and Mr. Kotil talked about it i.e. "I don't have enough engineer in Turkey". This is what Pakistan brings to the table and that's why all this collaboration is done at academia level (With NUST not with PAC). Next, If TAI's chief is saying that they are brining some operations to Pakistan, this is no small statement by any mean. I am not sure what exactly those operations are, but we can deduce from circumstantial evidences these will be related to airframe manufacturing. When we talk about it many people think it's because of Thunder and experience gained from that project but let me tell you the experience in this field transcends Thunder. PAC has stunned world's best in the business with its airframe manufacturing prowess when it brought back to life these planes from dead by repairing their framework. SAAB had written off these Erieye aircraft and Lockheed Martin did the same in case of that PAF's F-16B in the pic ... then PAC showed them what happen when you have right commitment and determined leadership to stand behind your efforts.

Then there are legends known as Mirages IIIs/Vs ... more than 50 years old aircraft and still able to deliver. 2019 Op Swift Retort was mainly a strike mission carried out by PAF's mirages being maintained by PAC.

OEM specifications were that these aircraft will have 2 service life overhauls and PAC has already put these machines 4 times through its rigs ... I don't want to go specifications enhancement done by PAC/PAF on these as that's not the discussion here. When PAC/PAF were doing all this, the world including TAI was watching and taking note!
Now, you will understand why TAI chief is so keen to bring the project to Pakistani young engineers They know about the potential, rest can be achieved by cooperation and guiding these potential aviation experts of future for the benefits of both the nations.

Now, coming back to the topic at hand, Pakistan's cooperation with TAI on TFX is not going to be a platform level exercise rather cooperation is on sub-system level where TAI will get cheap but very capable minds and PAC will get fresh, advanced trained human resource in house with lots of opportunities to expand existing knowledge base in the country something many countries want but simply can't due to multiple reasons ranging from political to financial.

As far as Merging of TFX- and AZM is concerned. This is NOT POSSIBLE to do for PAF for very very obvious reason.

Let me try to explain that to you and others who think on the similar lines....

TFX development cycle is stretched to 2040 if everything in between then and now stay on schedule. But we know delays are inevitable in such complex projects. So we are talking about 2045-50 timelines for TFX flying in numbers and exported to PAF. Now, PAF's time of induction of 5th Gen fighter is not dependent on the completion of TFX or AZM. The most critical variable is when IAF will decide to induct its 5GF. PAF is following Minimum Credible Deterrence (State level military doctrine implemented across all 3 forces). You saw how quickly the operational gap created by IAF by acquiring Rafale was plugged by induction of J-10Cs. The same is going to happen with 5GF as it happened in case of 4.5GF! So, PAF has time to develop AZM while procuring off the shelf 5GF from China to restore the balance of power in the region to ensure strategic stability. India since 1971, has introduced instability in stability-Instability paradigm in the region around 7 or 8 times, and Pakistan restored stability in the paradigm every time to ensure deterrence stay alive. (Details are not relevant to the discussion at hand but if anyone interested can inbox me).

Pakistan will continue to cooperate with Turkey on TFX while expertise got will go to Azm as well because like I said (and TAI team also explained in that interview) that NUST engineers will be solving problems by breaking them into smaller challenges. Obviously we are talking about sub-system level R&D. Pakistan, for its own need, will keep Chinese channel open. This is our strategic constraint like I explained above. So, If Turkey can develop everything on its own, we will be more than glad, but if our brother has asked us for cooperation, this is also an honor for us as we consider this gesture as recognition to our talent. This changes nothing for PAF's future plans, AZM or anything!

Why NUST?

Many members have spoken on this as well. To me, it's related to the fact that NUST is only place in Pakistan with supercomputer installed, and it means this is a goto place for every organization in the country who has some sort of simulation, modeling and high fidelity analysis task at hand and require results with high degree of accuracy. This will also clear what Dr. Rizwan meant when he said NUST will be providing same services to TAI as it did for PAF's AZM! But then again it's my own understanding only.

 

[GiantPanda]

@tphuang Does this mean there's no "export J-35" but simply J-35 and FC-31?

China has clearly stated FC-31 is for export in this case not J-35. J-35 would be like J-20 where export is not possible since it is chosen as PLAN's next carrier fighter.

Maybe the differences might not be too large but we wouldn't know. It could be different radar sets or engines -- for example, WS-19 would go to J-35 first when it comes out.

But the export piece for FC-31 might mean exporting assembly too. This was done with K-8 and FC-1/JF-17.

Pakistan having experience with this might rope in China for TFX with FC-31 parts and WS-13 engines with assembly in Pakistan for its share of the production.

 

[tphuang]

@tphuang Does this mean there's no "export J-35" but simply J-35 and FC-31?

I don't think we know the exact designations yet. It's also not important to know that.

We have a naval 5th gen aircraft in development and testing. There will be a land based one too. The two will be very similar (like f35a vs f35c). The export version will be f35a with possible changes just to client requirements. I wouldn't get too hang up on export version since that has a negative connotation. I think it will be more like j10c. Pakistan will have some different requirements than pla so things won't be exactly the same.

 

[TOPGUN]

I think PAF and TAF know better then us all here so why the anger and fights here, we are brothers in all ways let good times roll and come rather then fight with each other because thats what our enemies want so stop the BS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SD 10]

hopefully it wont be another T129 saga!!!!!!!! but we didn`t think this through, anyways i hope i am wrong!