Pakistan-Turkey Defence Deals l President Erdogan visit to Pakistan

[HRK]

@HRK thanks for the merge.

I did nothing .... may be some moderator ....

 

[StormBreaker]

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10158057819428328

I think this is very interesting. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) had suggested that TAI had set up at NUST to fund research. I had originally disagreed with such a notion saying that it was to do with exports of TAI products. I believe I stand corrected.

Of note is
"The areas of collaboration include Student & Faculty Exchange, Joint Research, and Intellectual Property Training leading to technology transfer."

1. Student exchange: This is certainly to our benefit. We are unable to provide our students with the right industries to work in.
2. Faculty exchange: This seems like a two way street. It seems TAI is interested in the faculty working at NUST and would like some of their work to make it to TAI products.
3. Joint Research, and Intellectual Property Training leading to technology transfer: This is probably an extractive process with respect to us. But I am not complaining. If our universities are producing talent and technology and it isnt being fully utilized locally it is good that at least someone is. Perhaps this will push Pakistani industries to follow suit once they see all the benefits of this that TAI reaps.

@HRK thanks for the merge. Was just about to ask for it.

This is really big news

 

[Basel]

Can we get our midget subs to be upgraded by Turkey?


Go for This Pakistan!!


You mean like Long Range Anti Ship Stealth missiles that that of Lockhead Martin LRASM?


We have RA'AD for more than a Decade then why dont we modify it for our own? Why get Turkish ALCM when we have this technology before them?

Why need to reinvent wheel??

SOM series is very good as it is made to penetrate highly defended areas and also have multiple guidance as per version with top attack capability.

 

[dBSPL]

In the past, the two countries have helped each other in many areas and have given priority to each other in meeting their needs. However, the structure that is currently being tried to be created beyond this traditional brotherhood; Pakistan and Turkey are becoming strategic partners in the field of defense by gaining joint work capability from scratch. Now we overcome the financial and legal infrastructure of this process, while taking necessery steps for coordination of the workforce and the standardization of infrastructure, one by one.

We will rise between the two worlds with our own standards, our own engineering power, our own know-how and our own industrial capabilities. Instead of speculating SOM or another end product here, we need to focus on our common and great future, which will be the guarantee of the independence of the two countries.

 

[StormBreaker]

In the past, the two countries have helped each other in many areas and have given priority to each other in meeting their needs. However, the structure that is currently being tried to be created beyond this traditional brotherhood; Pakistan and Turkey are becoming strategic partners in the field of defense by gaining joint work capability from scratch. Now we overcome the financial and legal infrastructure of this process, while taking necessery steps for coordination of the workforce and the standardization of infrastructure, one by one.

We will rise between the two worlds with our own standards, our own engineering power, our own know-how and our own industrial capabilities. Instead of speculating SOM or another end product here, we need to focus on our common and great future, which will be the guarantee of the independence of the two countries.

InshaAllah, long term project, if the leaders remain faithful, we will rise together soon !!

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Pakistan and Turkey can make this work... just need to put the money where their mouth is... a joint organization administering JV's, investments and integration of best practices. If both countries can fund such mutual organization/agency they can achieve a lot. Pakistan needs a lot of help in adding value to it's raw materials and agricultural products. Also facilitate travel and cooperation between educational institutions.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Genuine question, what type of research can flow from our side to turkey which turkey may not be able to access on their own?

Sometimes it's just a situation of scouting for good R&D people. As @JamD noted, if we're not locally using our talent to its full, then it'll end up abroad anyways. So, instead of the US and EU having a monopoly, Turkey wants to compete for it too. It may not benefit us in the near term, but it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of Turks had went to the US or EU under similar arrangements 30-40 years ago. When the local industry finally started investing, many returned, bringing tons of valuable expertise with them. Likewise, they also pushed the likes of Airbus, LM, etc to also invest in projects in Turkey, further deepening the pool.

 

[JamD]

Genuine question, what type of research can flow from our side to turkey which turkey may not be able to access on their own?

Great question.

This has to do with the difference in research done in universities compared with research done in companies and strategic organizations.

Research in companies and organizations is done for very specific goals (sometimes for specific projects) and it is very goal oriented. They tend to think less outside the box and go for safe and practical solutions that can get the job done. You can do this with a focused teams of small number of specialists. Upside is speed, practicality. Downside is little progress scientifically and risk of stagnation because research is only problem oriented.

Research in universities is done in a much more open ended manner. There are many many researchers working on many different problems. Researchers are mostly free to do research on what they want. They will usually produce things of little practical value but many many avenues of further research are opened. The existence of this ecosystem is vital for scientific progress. Upside is you keep getting new things and technologies. Downside is you might not have immediate applications for most of the work done. Another downside is it takes a lot of time and money to fund so many people for so long. It's a 20 30 year game.

Let's look at what makes the American model so successful. There is a huge number of companies and government organizations that do their own research. But then there is even gigantic ecosystem of university researchers that these companies and organizations fund research in. The companies and organizations cannot do this kind of research and universities cannot do the research companies do. So both work together. All these companies like Boeing Raytheon Lockheed Northrup Harris wouldn't be so cutting edge if they weren't constantly co-opting technologies developed in universities over decades. The thing is you need LOTS of universities and researchers to have a certain critical mass so that out of the mostly impractical ideas a few good ideas can be found.

Now coming to why TAI is interested in NUST. Pakistan has a decent amount of universities and NUST in particular is involved in a lot of research. Theres a lot of faculty. The government is funding a lot of research. Unfortunately, the government is not utilizing most of the research done in universities so it's mostly money down the drain. TAI probably saw this and thought to themselves why dont we expand our "university pool of researchers" to include NUST? To them it's a free resource that the government of Pakistan is paying for and not utilizing. To us were happy that our researchers and students have finally something to feed into.

That's what's happening here IMHO.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Great question.

This has to do with the difference in research done in universities compared with research done in companies and strategic organizations.

Research in companies and organizations is done for very specific goals (sometimes for specific projects) and it is very goal oriented. They tend to think less outside the box and go for safe and practical solutions that can get the job done. You can do this with a focused teams of small number of specialists. Upside is speed, practicality. Downside is little progress scientifically and risk of stagnation because research is only problem oriented.

Research in universities is done in a much more open ended manner. There are many many researchers working on many different problems. Researchers are mostly free to do research on what they want. They will usually produce things of little practical value but many many avenues of further research are opened. The existence of this ecosystem is vital for scientific progress. Upside is you keep getting new things and technologies. Downside is you might not have immediate applications for most of the work done. Another downside is it takes a lot of time and money to fund so many people for so long. It's a 20 30 year game.

Let's look at what makes the American model so successful. There is a huge number of companies and government organizations that do their own research. But then there is even gigantic ecosystem of university researchers that these companies and organizations fund research in. The companies and organizations cannot do this kind of research and universities cannot do the research companies do. So both work together. All these companies like Boeing Raytheon Lockheed Northrup Harris wouldn't be so cutting edge if they weren't constantly co-opting technologies developed in universities over decades. The thing is you need LOTS of universities and researchers to have a certain critical mass so that out of the mostly impractical ideas a few good ideas can be found.

Now coming to why TAI is interested in NUST. Pakistan has a decent amount of universities and NUST in particular is involved in a lot of research. Theres a lot of faculty. The government is funding a lot of research. Unfortunately, the government is not utilizing most of the research done in universities so it's mostly money down the drain. TAI probably saw this and thought to themselves why dont we expand our "university pool of researchers" to include NUST? To them it's a free resource that the government of Pakistan is paying for and not utilizing. To us were happy that our researchers and students have finally something to feed into.

That's what's happening here IMHO.

It'll be interesting to see if TAI adds to the R&D base through facilities and programs, especially as an offset in its sales to the armed forces. It can be a win-win: the armed forces get their hardware, TAI could invest money in an area that aligns with its interests, and the Pak Gov't is less stressed about USD outflows. Granted, this investment wouldn't cross 10-15% of the total value of such sales, anything more would mean handing MRO and other larger responsibilities (including production) to the private sector. Doubt we're ready to let go of that yet.

 

[JamD]

It'll be interesting to see if TAI adds to the R&D base through facilities and programs, especially as an offset in its sales to the armed forces. It can be a win-win: the armed forces get their hardware, TAI could invest money in an area that aligns with its interests, and the Pak Gov't is less stressed about USD outflows. Granted, this investment wouldn't cross 10-15% of the total value of such sales, anything more would mean handing MRO and other larger responsibilities (including production) to the private sector. Doubt we're ready to let go of that yet.

More realistically they'll poach researchers and research by offering them jobs and scholarships. Well be happy for the opportunity. We can't complain though. We arent offering researchers and students any opportunities ourselves. That's what I think the "win-win" will be. I dont expect TAI to develop our civialian R&D infrastructure out of the goodness of their hearts/charity.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Someone should suggest HIT Taxila to do a JV with Turkey on these

Pars 8x8
Pars 6x6
Ejder Tactical Armoured Vehicle

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

More realistically they'll poach researchers and research by offering them jobs and scholarships. Well be happy for the opportunity. We can't complain though. We arent offering researchers and students any opportunities ourselves. That's what I think the "win-win" will be. I dont expect TAI to develop our civialian R&D infrastructure out of the goodness of their hearts/charity.

But I do think we're in a unique position where we can tie our purchases from Turkey to deeper investment, such as civilian R&D expansion. So, the T129 deal for example, the engine issue notwithstanding we could push the Turks to spend 50%+ of it ($750 m) back in Pakistan across targeted areas, including R&D. Likewise, if the PAF is serious on the TF-X (after all, the Chairman of PAC said “Turkey’s T-FX is in line with what the PAF want”), it can attach similar strings. Where we're often the first buyers of Chinese equipment, the Chinese don't need us for anything; but with the Turks, we can at least argue the economies-of-scale and launch overseas user case as leverage.

 

[dBSPL]

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...t-aselsan-to-open-offices-in-pakistan-ukraine

https://www.dailysabah.com/defense/...ense-giant-tai-opens-first-office-in-pakistan

Roketsan will follow others.

 

[alphapak]

Pak should also have a look at the Koral system with Turkey getting the
S400's. They can be tested.

 

[khanmubashir]

Influenced doesn't matter. What matter is Turkey having the whole indegenious equipments which is good. There should be diversity in our arsenal. Turks have made a great deal in defense. Western Technology isn't bad. Hope Pakistan JV's with Turkey on Hisar ADS

and Turks also help to incorporate NATO tech onto Chinese origin systems like Turkish irst for jf17

any news related to tfx azm ??