Pakistan totally failed to capitalize the technology transfer of the Agosta-90B Submarines.

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Watch this video from 31:25 minutes regarding TOT---and learn what TOT is and the lie behind it.

Then watch at 38:15 why Pakistan refused MFN ( most favored nation status ) to india---.

Listen @ 43.36 onwards how many defense employees are sacked because they cannot prove how they got their assets

Listen and learn---" In this day and age---no country can be independent of the other country---".

 

[Incog_nito]

But I guess in the current scenario PN should focus on the next submarine acquisition besides 8 S-20s.

PN should re-start Submarine hut in Europe. Germany, France, Italy, & Sweden are good options. Also, PN can look towards Japan and any other Asian country as well.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

But I guess in the current scenario PN should focus on the next submarine acquisition besides 8 S-20s.

PN should re-start Submarine hut in Europe. Germany, France, Italy, & Sweden are good options. Also, PN can look towards Japan and any other Asian country as well.

The next possible sub program in the PN is probably to replace the Agosta 90B, but that won't happen until 2040-2050. So, that's a lot of time, even if you give a 10-year production timeline for 3 submarines.

Overall, I think the PN will use that time to co-develop its own submarine, either with China or Turkey.

Turkey could pitch STM's xTS-1700. @Nutuk @cabatli_53

China's new single-hull designs are really interesting too:

 

[cabatli_53]

The next possible sub program in the PN is probably to replace the Agosta 90B, but that won't happen until 2040-2050. So, that's a lot of time, even if you give a 10-year production timeline for 3 submarines.

Overall, I think the PN will use that time to co-develop its own submarine, either with China or Turkey.

Turkey could pitch STM's xTS-1700. @Nutuk @cabatli_53

China's new single-hull designs are really interesting too:

Bro, STM designed above concept as being a candidate for Turkey's official submarine program called MilDen but I think This concept doesn't fulfill the requirements described by Turkish Navy. Acc to requirement described by Admiral Bostancıoğlu, Milden will have launching capability for national land attack cruise missiles called Gezgin. He didn't specify whether these missiles will be fired from torpedo tubes or vertical launchers but I suppose Milden will have a separate section for VL tubes(?). Besides, Milden is being designed by Turkish Navy design office (ArMerKom) under the cooperation with other institutes when It is needed. This Navy office is the same place where Milgem, Istanbul class and TF-2000 destroyers were designed.

Here is a perfect article written by Dear İbrahim SÜNNETÇİ. He is comparing the features of U-214TN (Reis class) with Milden national submarine program.

The development activities of the GEZGİN National Cruise Missile are ongoing, and it is considered to be used for the first time on MİLDEN platforms. However, when the missile is ready, I expect it to be used in PREVEZE Class Submarines equipped with MÜREN CMS from the mid-2020s.
The infrastructure established for REİS Class Submarines will be used in the design and construction of the first national submarine, MİLDEN, which will be designed and built with a high domestic contribution rate and national resources. Although initially thought to have similar dimensions and displacement as the REİS Class, I believe that MİLDEN boats will be slightly longer and heavier than planned. I think MİLDEN Submarines will have a length of around 75-80m, a beam of 7m, a draught of 6.5m, and a submerged displacement between 2,500-3,000 tons and unlike the REİS Class, MİLDEN Submarines will have at least one Reformer. Preferred for long-range missions, Reformer is preferred for large (over 2,000 tons) submarines. Both PEM Fuel Cell modules and Reformers to be used in MİLDEN submarines to be equipped with 300kW (400hp) AIP System will be designed and produced nationally, and the systems will also be developed domestically under the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project. The PEM Fuel Cell modules, which will be manufactured locally by the company to be selected under the project, are intended to replace the BZM120 modules currently used in REİS Class Submarines in the following years. Additionally, unlike the REİS Class, MİLDEN Class is expected to use locally produced Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) batteries (LIB) with higher power and capacity instead of lead-acid batteries. Unlike REİS Class submarines, which are currently under construction, and AY, PREVEZE, and GÜR Class submarines, which have a single compartment cigar-shaped hull form, MİLDEN class submarines will have a multi-compartment teardrop hull form. I think that MİLDEN will have at least six 533mm heavyweight torpedo tubes and one 650mm deployment station to allow SAS/SAT underwater operations.

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...apabilities-in-the-eastern-mediterranean-3919

 

[airomerix]

This is partially true.


Pakistan still holds a commercial license to produce these submarines for any foreign customer (if any). It is not just about the labor, it is about the technology blueprints, supply chain management, and other variables that go into the production of defense products.

However, we did falter and lost an opportunity to grow the fleet to at least 6 subs of this class. Which should have been the case.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

This is partially true.


Pakistan still holds a commercial license to produce these submarines for any foreign customer (if any). It is not just about the labor, it is about the technology blueprints, supply chain management, and other variables that go into the production of defense products.

However, we did falter and lost an opportunity to grow the fleet to at least 6 subs of this class. Which should have been the case.

If this is the case, could they try building new submarines, but with new input suppliers/supply chain partners (e.g., in South Korea, UK, Italy, etc)?

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

If this is the case, could they try building new submarines, but with new input suppliers/supply chain partners (e.g., in South Korea, UK, Italy, etc)?

PN should Attempt to Build and Design at least a Coastal Submarines within 800-1000 Ton Range Surely the Warship Grade Steel and some Subsystems would have to be Imported but it would be something we can build upon later on.

We already have J-Class Frigates for us to build upon and Design something our self in the Future a Similar Attempt should be made For Subsurface elements so we can Steadily build up an effective and Large Force over the next few Decades.

 

[Incog_nito]

The next possible sub program in the PN is probably to replace the Agosta 90B, but that won't happen until 2040-2050. So, that's a lot of time, even if you give a 10-year production timeline for 3 submarines.

Overall, I think the PN will use that time to co-develop its own submarine, either with China or Turkey.

Turkey could pitch STM's xTS-1700. @Nutuk @cabatli_53

China's new single-hull designs are really interesting too:

Instead of just China, PN should look elsewhere. I guess PN doesn't want 8 SKKs only there requirements might be 16-20 SSKs if funds are available.

 

[airomerix]

If this is the case, could they try building new submarines, but with new input suppliers/supply chain partners (e.g., in South Korea, UK, Italy, etc)?

Building a submarine is one of the most complex of tasks in the defense industry. It would require complete support from OEM which means alot of money, diplomacy, goodwills, and good lucks.

Neither will French would want to lose on the money if PN attempts to manufacture an Agosta 90B inhouse in small numbers (since we can only afford small numbers).

The Agosta deal was intensely complex and plagued with dirt from the French themselves, Pakistan's political top brass, naval officers, and bureaucrats. Everyone raped the Navy of its budget. And trust me when I say this, if the deal had gone how it should have, we originally had 6 Agosta's in our plans till 2020.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Transfer of Technology is most misunderstood concept in military domain. There is no such thing as 100% ToT. It varies usually between 12-25% only. OEM always keep most sensitive sub-system technology. Look at JF-17, our JV with China and yet, avionics is primarily comes from China in knockout kits for assembly in PAC. There is another dimension of this, if your industrial base is not ready to tackle advanced tech, there is simply no point in getting 100% tech. I am yet to see a bilateral deal between any 2 countries where ToT was 100%. Last time, French allegedly gave us blue prints of Mirage III/V for ROSE project when they themselves had stopped their production years ago.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Transfer of Technology is most misunderstood concept in military domain. There is no such thing as 100% ToT. It varies usually between 12-25% only. OEM always keep most sensitive sub-system technology. Look at JF-17, our JV with China and yet, avionics is primarily comes from China in knockout kits for assembly in PAC. There is another dimension of this, if your industrial base is not ready to tackle advanced tech, there is simply no point in getting 100% tech. I am yet to see a bilateral deal between any 2 countries where ToT was 100%. Last time, French allegedly gave us blue prints of Mirage III/V for ROSE project when they themselves had stopped their production years ago.

Yep. KSEW and PAC can get the blueprints, but we lack all of the underlying industrial inputs to make this stuff at home on a turnkey basis.

Yet...if that had been the only problem. We even lack the design and engineering expertise to pull together inputs from other places (like Turkey can, for example). If we had just that much, we may have been able to make a new Agosta variant (with non French inputs).

Looks like we caught a break when the Turks agreed to sell that expertise for frigates, but a submarine is a whole other story still.

Ultimately, I think the sub after the Hangor will be an original design. Perhaps a variant of a Chinese or Turkish concept on offer (e.g. STM TS1700 or CSSC S1100). But the goal, like the J-Class and LRMPA, will be to produce one by working with foreign input suppliers (steel, engine, electronics, etc) directly.

 

[MastanKhan]

Just look at what the israelis have done with Kfir block 60. Its truly remarkable how advaced that old Mirage 5 airfame has allowed it to be. A Mirage F-1 would have been an awsome start for Pakistan and could easily have been upgraded with what was learned from studying its subsystems to develop an advanced jet manufacturing capability and avionics facilities. Alas it was not to be.

Hi,

With the induction of Mirage F-1---Paf would have had a JF17 in the 80's---.

 

[zhxy]

There is no 100% TOT. For example, the Indian T-90. The optical and electronic components on the T-90 are all imported from France and the EU. Russians can't transfer technology they don't own even though Indians pay more. The same is true for the case of JF-17, AVIC does not make 100% of this aircraft, many components are purchased from subcontractors. AVIC is simply a designer and reassemble.

 

[MastanKhan]

There is no 100% TOT. For example, the Indian T-90. The optical and electronic components on the T-90 are all imported from France and the EU. Russians can't transfer technology they don't own even though Indians pay more. The same is true for the case of JF-17, AVIC does not make 100% of this aircraft, many components are purchased from subcontractors. AVIC is simply a designer and reassemble.

Hi,

Thank you for your post---.

As a well versed indian analyst " Iyer " put it clearly---there is no such thing a technology transfer as a whole---.

There maybe 10-15 different vendors to building a submarine---. The technology transfer may have been given for the hull---and that may only be like 20-30% of the whole---.

So---if the shipyard gave TOT for the hull---it does not mean the other vendors gave the TOT---.

You need propulsion systems---you need plumbing---you need fire control and fire fighting---you need a drive mechanism---you need electronics and other paraphernalia---sonar---battle managements systems and myriads of other things---torpedo launching mechanism---residential areas---.

Now you may understand how much specialized labor is needed to build a submarine---let us say---15 teams of builders working on 15 different projects one totally dissimilar to the other---.

Now that you have the technology to build a hull---what are you going to do with just the Hull---maybe add OARS---put benches inside for the labor to sit and pull on them---.

Pakistani men have to be SPOON FED every explanation and every reason as to why things are not as they seem---.

Now that I have given an explanation to what TOT transfer and its limitations are---I hope the reader can understand and comprehend what TOT does not mean what people generally understand---.

 

[LKJ86]

AVIC is simply a designer and reassemble.

No, CAC would do that job, and most of JF-17's components are just from AVIC.