Pakistan totally failed to capitalize the technology transfer of the Agosta-90B Submarines.

[HariPrasad]

Hi,

But the Agosta 90B was one of the finest in its class at that time---so---kickbacks aside---pak navy got a great product---.

Fully agreed. French submarines are certainly top class. I think Pakistan has got independent propulsion which adds to its punch.

 

[Tank131]

There are some fresh approaches to be considered that may lead to designs different from F-22. But, good work so far. Keep it up!

To that approach, the YF-23 which was,the Northrop design that competed against the F-22 in the ATF tender was both faster and, stealthier, although the F-22 was more agile (though only slightly so) but was though at the time to be likely to have a cheaper development cost. Some of its design elements are being rumored to be finding their way to future 6th gen fighter designs. There have even been single engine artist renders for future 5th gen fighters from china which resembled design elements from YF-23

 

[CriticalThought]

To that approach, the YF-23 which was,the Northrop design that competed against the F-22 in the ATF tender was both faster and, stealthier, although the F-22 was more agile (though only slightly so) but was though at the time to be likely to have a cheaper development cost. Some of its design elements are being rumored to be finding their way to future 6th gen fighter designs. There have even been single engine artist renders for future 5th gen fighters from china which resembled design elements from YF-23

I am deply interested in the possibility of conventional aerodynamic design becoming stealthy, giving best of both worlds.

 

[Arsalan]

I wont say we totally failed. One have to consider the amount of ToT that was acquired in that deal. The continuation in form of the Chinese subs is also something that was helped by lessons learned from Agosta deal.

 

[MastanKhan]

I wont say we totally failed. One have to consider the amount of ToT that was acquired in that deal. The continuation in form of the Chinese subs is also something that was helped by lessons learned from Agosta deal.

Hi,

You are right---we did not fail---there were no orders for the 90B---. We gained the knowledge that we were supposed to---.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

In a sense KSEW technically did get the ability to make submarines, but shipyards in general are at the final stage of warships production. The 3rd boat (PNS Hamza) was constructed indigenously, but as Pakistan did not have competency in ship-grade steel, electronics and propulsion, the materials necessary to manufacture still had to be imported. This can't be thrown at KSEW or the PN alone, for domestic turnkey shipbuilding, we need producers in the key inputs. The good thing about most of these inputs is that they're dual-use (e.g. gas turbines) and getting overseas help to set up shop in Pakistan might be easier (politically speaking) than buying a readymade weapon. Ask MTU, Rolls Royce and Safran about their activities with China.

Very right. This requires strong local engineering industry and that requires economies of scale for the private sector to invest in technology and manpower. Even India has given up on the state sponsored mfg setup and now looking towards the private sector to take up manufacturing in the defense sector.

 

[PAR 5]

PN has the ability to buy. PN has the ability to construct. PN however lacks the ability to design, prototype and test. Which is the reason why like POF it cannot produce indeginously

Hi,

You are right---we did not fail---there were no orders for the 90B---. We gained the knowledge that we were supposed to---.

Gaining knowledge holds no water unless you use it afterwards

 

[Asian.Century]

So sad.

 

[Imran Khan]

if the news of mini sub is true i think its still benefited us .

 

[MastanKhan]

PN has the ability to buy. PN has the ability to construct. PN however lacks the ability to design, prototype and test. Which is the reason why like POF it cannot produce indeginously
Gaining knowledge holds no water unless you use it afterwards

Hi,

POF produces functional utility equipment but not at par with the latest western equipment---and even if it does---there is a reason behind it---. The product is economically feasible to produce and the POF can get the material needed to produce it---.

Even though the PN got the TOT on the agosta 90 B---it was to raise their thinking and technical standards---.

To produce another agosta 90 B---you need to have the material---the metals---the power plant---the electronics that the PN does not have access to---.

Next---it needs a buyer for its product---which they do not have---next if they get a buyer---the project is not profitable---.

Sadly only a " Pakistani " can say that they have learnt nothing and the knowledge of TOT is not worth it---.

This level of illiteracy is uniquely registered to Pakistanis---. It truly is a hallmark of their lack of understanding the true meaning of TOT---.

 

[Trango Towers]

Hi,

POF produces functional utility equipment but not at par with the latest western equipment---and even if it does---there is a reason behind it---. The product is economically feasible to produce and the POF can get the material needed to produce it---.

Even though the PN got the TOT on the agosta 90 B---it was to raise their thinking and technical standards---.

To produce another agosta 90 B---you need to have the material---the metals---the power plant---the electronics that the PN does not have access to---.

Next---it needs a buyer for its product---which they do not have---next if they get a buyer---the project is not profitable---.

Sadly only a " Pakistani " can say that they have learnt nothing and the knowledge of TOT is not worth it---.

This level of illiteracy is uniquely registered to Pakistanis---. It truly is a hallmark of their lack of understanding the true meaning of TOT---.

Finally I can agree with @MastanKhan

 

[flameboard]

Does anyone have any news on Chinese submarines 3 or 4 of which would be made in Pakistan and the rest made in China?

 

[volatile]

Hi,

POF produces functional utility equipment but not at par with the latest western equipment---and even if it does---there is a reason behind it---. The product is economically feasible to produce and the POF can get the material needed to produce it---.

Even though the PN got the TOT on the agosta 90 B---it was to raise their thinking and technical standards---.

To produce another agosta 90 B---you need to have the material---the metals---the power plant---the electronics that the PN does not have access to---.

Next---it needs a buyer for its product---which they do not have---next if they get a buyer---the project is not profitable---.

Sadly only a " Pakistani " can say that they have learnt nothing and the knowledge of TOT is not worth it---.

This level of illiteracy is uniquely registered to Pakistanis---. It truly is a hallmark of their lack of understanding the true meaning of TOT---.

Their is another angle to TOT which is making sure the operator have enough know how to operate ,minor maintenance and other small upgrades can be done with out sending the ship to France .In my opinion TOT is over rated term and good for desi`s that we are buying absolutely some thing out of this world ,for TOT you need to have proper infrastructure ,man power ,technical pool of people and many more things .Its a big subject .for us we should be happy just throw some words and jack up price 5%

 

[aziqbal]

We didn't construct a single submarine after the initial three. Instead we are buying eight more Chinese submarines. What was the whole point of wasting resources for building future submarines that we will never build?

the point wasn't to build more

the point was if it is damaged or needs repair Pakistan can do it in house

and even upgrades and overhaul can then be done in house

there was never a plan to buy more than 3

with Chinese its the same story, 8 and plus we build some at Karachi

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Unfortunately, folks are still confusing "ToT" with "turnkey" manufacturing.

In the case of the Agosta 90B, the two are not the same.

Yes, KSEW gained the ability to construct the Agosta 90B, but it still relied on kits-of-material (KoM) from the OEM, DCNS/Naval Group. This is because Naval Group still owned the IP and design. So, each time the PN wants to build a new Agosta 90B, it'd need to get the KoMs from Naval Group. In turn, Naval Group works with the suppliers (i.e., for the steel, engine, electronics, etc) it wants, and Pakistan pays for it at the agreed price.

When the PN wanted additional submarines, Naval Group stopped offering the Agosta 90B, and it wanted the PN to move onto Marlin (i.e., an improved version of the Scorpene).

Ideally, the PN would have bought out the design rights to the Agosta 90B too so that it can work with the suppliers directly and keep manufacturing. Unfortunately, submarine design is a guarded secret, so even with an old design it won't let it go (though South Korea somehow got the design of the Type 209, which it's manufacturing on its own).

The MoDP said KSEW will build the 4 Hangor SSP using KoMs too. So, the situation on subs will not change, the PN will have to fund an original design to independently manufacture one. But, for what it's worth, Turkey's STM has offered us that opportunity.