Pakistan totally failed to capitalize the technology transfer of the Agosta-90B Submarines.

[Kompromat]

What an expensive loss.

 

[MastanKhan]

The Swedes couldn't work out due to the fall-out of 1971, but Pakistan's ties with France could have been developed through the 1980s. Yes, the Mirage 2000 was a very costly aircraft (even in the 1980s). I don't think the PAF would have been able to buy more than 24 in the 1980s, with another 8-12 by the mid-1990s.

However, the net-outcome would have been about the same in the 1990s as having 32 F-16s that couldn't be flown for very long due to the paucity of spare parts.

The French had also offered the Mirage F-1 with local manufacturing in Pakistan along with a giant stockpile of ATAR turbojet engines. Those could have been bought in force to compensate for fewer Mirage 2000s, perhaps even be equipped with the same subsystems as the Mirage 2000 (i.e. Mirage F-1 F2000).

Hi,

Thank you---the more we dig into it---the more we find out how incompetent the PAF generals were---.

Having the production line of Mirage F1's in pakistan in the 80's would be what I wrote earlier---a 2018 capable JF17 aircraft in PAF's inventory in the 1980's---.

Why do I say the Paf generals are TRAITORS to pakistan---the proof is in the pudding---. Their deceit and deception has ruined pakistans leadership in air defence and strike capabilities in the arena---.

Sohail Aman is of the same school---he also firmly believes in the myth of the " man behind the machine " mentality---.

 

[SipahSalar]

Sohail Aman is of the same school---he also firmly believes in the myth of the " man behind the machine " mentality---.

If you hate that mentality, you would have a hard time finding an officer of any air force in the world that you will like.

In no other military branch does skill and experience matter as much as in the air force. That's why Air Forces put so much effort in protecting their pilots. You can build a new F-16, but you will have a very hard time replacing a pilot with 3000 hours flying that F-16.

 

[MastanKhan]

If you hate that mentality, you would have a hard time finding an officer of any air force in the world that you will like.

In no other military branch does skill and experience matter as much as in the air force. That's why Air Forces put so much effort in protecting their pilots. You can build a new F-16, but you will have a very hard time replacing a pilot with 3000 hours flying that F-16.

Hi,

The issue over here is that " my man behind the machine is better than the enemy's man behind the machine '---even though the enemy maybe flying a superior machine---.

Not all pilots have 3000 hrs---as a matter of fact---very few of them in Paf---.

Majority of combat pilots would be under a 1000 hours---and maybe 1/2 of them between 300 to 800 hrs---.

Sohail Aman is not talking about replacing pilot---he says his pilot is superior to the enemy pilot and can do better in an inferior machine.

 

[POPEYE-Sailor]

We didn't construct a single submarine after the initial three. Instead we are buying eight more Chinese submarines. What was the whole point of wasting resources for building future submarines that we will never build?

Build more submarine locally, its depend upon $$$$ and Pak navy getting new submarine on Sweet loans..!!!

 

[Vortex]

Guys, the TOT everyone's talking, wasn't a full TOT for building. I don't remember where i heard or read that they never give full TOT, they keep the technology of main components.

Their goal was to sell.... They sold. We were the buyer.

At least, i read somewhere that CATIC and pressurized water cutting technologies we got from agusta adventure were used for JF17... I don't remember exactly where.... My memories are failing.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

I think back in 90's one idea which was quite popular was also that being one of first nations in our region to make Submarines , we might get to assemble a Third party order i.e Order emerging from lets say Middle east etc however that fantasy never materialized

So after the 2-3 Submarines we constructed , we never managed to get a a followup order from Middle east.

Also on French side there was some massive probe against their Prime Minister to selling Paksitan the Agosta

"India had assainated few French Engineers using Raw operatives and that really soured Pakistan/French Submarine cooperation ties". In 1999 both nations had gone nuclear and
relations were tense.

Pakistan never fully raised the issue of Indian involvement in Killing , because back then folks were trying to have normalized ties with India

Pakisan failed to connect the dots involving RAW's operation in Karachi city and Killing of French Engineers back when it happened, the blame was convinently placed on Zardari
however it is well known no one would do such a thing from Pakistan's side


After 20-25 years , when the networks were dismantled Operation Rad-Ul-Fasad (Anti Corruption Operation in Karachi 2016-2017), it is now that we see the effect of the RAW network which become extra busy specially when French Engineers were in Pakistan to work on Agosta Submarine and train local crew



So that is an area we truely missed out to expose India's role
A recent attack against a Chinese Engineer , was a similar approach

Due to these reasons

1- We never had a follow up order
2- India got clean chit in killing of french engineers
3- We of course never attempted to make a French submarine on our own without Licence


Ironically India managed to step into Void left in French-Pakistan ties , after that incident and quickly capataized with Orders of Mirage / Submarines and Rafale


If Pakistan had raised the issue of RAW operatives involvement in killing of french Engineers in United Nation back than, there would have been some serious implications on Indians


However 2002 was a politically charged year , world was quite tense and every one was on a very tense characteristic in mix of this confusion India carried out his Covert Ops against French Engineer

- There was no beneficiary of french engineer killing than India

The operation was done with a bus near residential areas of engineers
Giving it sufficient cover , of unknown elements did the attack
However the folks who did it knew well in advance where the folks were residing

In Pakistan people had a very positive view of French in general
Three Agosta 90Bs were ordered in 1994

(BENAZIR'S 2ND term in power before Nawaz Sharif ousted her the typical character that he is in Pakistani politics obviously when ever Nawaz Sharif comes into Picture Pakistan's borders with India were left bit more open then usual)

Nawaz Sharif , had a lawless approach to Karachi and that enabled RAW to plan out such a move inside Pakistan at precise time when French Engineers were in Pakistan, the Criminal Gang's rise in Karachi happened between 80's and 90's. Nawaz sharif was always too keen on his offshore accounts to worry about Karachi

The idea of Mr Zardari involvement in any kind was baseless as he himself was quite keen to develop ties with French (Bhutto/Zaradari family were already quite rich in Pakistan)

The Idea that for petty cash Zardari would kill French Engineers was 100% Bogus becasue while he may have been a shrewed businessman he would not have done a deal of such low stature , it was a conjuring right out of a Bollywood movie


These were mere rumors spread up locally and also French PM Sarkozy faced similar political pressure against him


Ask yourself a simple question , Why would a terrorist from mountain thousand of miles away from sea be fearful of a submarine ? The submarine has no connetion to land

Now ask yourself a question ? Distrubing French-Pakistan ties favors which country ? Yep India

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Guys, the TOT everyone's talking, wasn't a full TOT for building. I don't remember where i heard or read that they never give full TOT, they keep the technology of main components.

Their goal was to sell.... They sold. We were the buyer.

At least, i read somewhere that CATIC and pressurized water cutting technologies we got from agusta adventure were used for JF17... I don't remember exactly where.... My memories are failing.

There are two things to consider: (1) the Agosta 90B design and (2) the industrial inputs necessary to make a submarine. KSEW got (1) from DCNS (i.e. the Agosta 90B designer), but KSEW didn't get (2). Thus, to even manufacture new Agosta 90Bs KSEW has to import core inputs from France.

Why? Because (2) isn't something DCNS can give.

The industrial inputs of a submarine require competency and infrastructure in forging a specific grade of steel, propulsion - which lends into propellers, compact power-generation technology, cooling, etc - and electronics.

All those inputs require long-term investment and development under an all-encompassing industrial growth program. We have to approach them from a general mindset at first and then gradually narrow as we grow in human capital, funding resources, etc. For example, we have set-up a semi-conductor base for a start, and from there it's a long, long road before we can ingenuously manufacture radars and avionics.

Another example, there's no way we'd make an indigenous turbofan engine for aircraft without a solid base in gas turbines, and much of gas turbine work is in relation to energy. Pakistan is a perennial gas turbine importer with basically zero interest (until very, very recently) in manufacturing its own. But even if we start now, it's a very long road before we can even enter the conversation about the necessary metallurgy (a field of its own right) to produce the right standard of crystal blades.

This mentality of "well we can get it from China" comes at a cost, and the cost is the loss of scarce hard/foreign currency with increasingly costly imports (for modernization) while losing time on developing our own stuff.

On an optimistic note, there are relatively few exporters of these goods. Any start today Pakistan makes could earn it a place in the market as a seller to even less developed countries (or even developed countries looking for cheaper inputs).

Every advancement from our end would increase the value and competitiveness of our industrial goods, giving us more in hard-currency that we can then put towards stop-gap imports, fast-tracking industrial development via targeted ToT, etc.

All it takes is sincere and visionary leadership, and even though we can say Pakistan lacks it, I think we need to start actively voicing this expectation so that people (even 1-by-1) see the corrupt less and look for the sincere more.

 

[MiG-35-BD]

On an optimistic note, there are relatively few exporters of these goods. Any start today Pakistan makes could earn it a place in the market as a seller to even less developed countries (or even developed countries looking for cheaper inputs).
.

I do think a small, basic submarine, in the 600 ton class is possible for Pakistan to build, with a little effort. This would not be a gladiatorial submarine, designed to counter India in the high seas, but more like a submarine missile boat - putter up to somewhere near an Indian port, lay a few mines, take a chance shot at a passing ship, and return back to base. One force multiplier would be a small UUV piggy-backing such a sub, that would vector into an Indian port and let loose on anything that moves.

The idea of a small submarine attacking a port is as old as WWII, where it was found that a large USN warship was sunk by such a boat. Though mostly such boats don't come back alive. Which makes a UUV ideal.

With modern automation, crew loads have been drastically reduced, as we saw with the Azmat class. A simple 600 ton submarine, with 4 fixed torpedo tubes (no reload, plain simple design), two mines, and a piggy-backing UUV, would cost very little and would be a serious threat for a good number of IN's Western ports, which are key to operations against PN.

Further, the threat of such attacks would cause a significant allocation of IN's resources to defending the port and clearing mines, a thankless and cumbersome task.

All for very little $$$ as a locally built 600 ton submarine would not cost much more than an Azmat class.

 

[khanasifm]

It was already discuss in-detail on defense and diplomacy episode

 

[farhan_9909]

if i remember correctly KSEW infact was pushing agosta90B for export to other countries on various defense expos

 

[PakShaheen79]

IMHO, all this discussion is an outcome of misunderstanding the term Transfer of Technology.

 

[khanasifm]

if i remember correctly KSEW infact was pushing agosta90B for export to other countries on various defense expos

Yes that was the idea and Pak was planned to build orders from Asia pacific region but agosta 90 was also superseded by newer models which now I think India and Malaysia etc are pursuing

I am sure KSEW learned and did get some technology and it may help in the new sub order and perhaps help in the rebuild of subs locally but overall Long term it did not achieve results for local manufacturing

Pn operationally got lot o experience in operating subs with aip the only navy perhaps in the region

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

if i remember correctly KSEW infact was pushing agosta90B for export to other countries on various defense expos

Yes that was the idea and Pak was planned to build orders from Asia pacific region but agosta 90 was also superseded by newer models which now I think India and Malaysia etc are pursuing

I am sure KSEW learned and did get some technology and it may help in the new sub order and perhaps help in the rebuild of subs locally but overall Long term it did not achieve results for local manufacturing

Pn operationally got lot o experience in operating subs with aip the only navy perhaps in the region

It wouldn't have mattered much even if Agosta 90Bs were exported. The steel, electronics, propulsion, etc would have come from France, leaving KSEW with just the manufacturing work. The revenue would have been relatively marginal if you're not in the loop of providing the valuable material.

Ultimately, the big issue with most Pakistani 'ToT' programs is that they aren't going to give inputs *unless* you pay for them, and since all that stuff are trade secrets, it is unlikely that they'll be on offer. If not indigenous development, then co-investing with another country in the same boat could be the way forward.

IMO states such as Ukraine, South Africa, Czech Republic, South Korea, etc, while unable to offer Pakistan as much as the US or China in terms of defence products, they are better partners for developing the inputs that can result in defence products.

Yes, you can't bank on indigenous work in the short-term, but these inputs can give Pakistan valuable civil exports to bolster the hard-currency reserves (plus skilled jobs for the middle class, STEM activity, etc). This way, you get money to buy goods off-the-shelf in the near-term while also having a long-term domestic program.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

Pakistani Fanboys have an exaggerated understanding of TOT.

They just simply cannot understand and comprehend the nations limitations in abosrbing the technology---.