Pakistan to raise 12,000 Marines in a new branch of Navy

[Signalian]

Honourable Sir,

Your post mentioned an infantry Div. having 3 Infantry Brigades plus an AD Brigade, an Artillery Brigade & a Support Brigade making 6 Brigades in total!

In my humble opinion, an Infantry Div. would only have AD Battalion, Artillery Battalion & a Support Battalion. It is the normally the Corps Artillery that is of Brigade strength. I am certain that an Artillery Brigade is at least 3,000 strong, the post mentions 900 -1000 men; surely this is Battalion/Regiment manpower not of a full Brigade.

Even in PA, not all divisions have same composition which is why i mentioned full strength infantry division e.g. 12 Infantry Div has 6 infantry brigades and then the support brigades, Armour Divisions have 2 armour brigades each having 2 armour regiments each which is quite under strength.
i agree that most Infantry divisions in PA have one regiment of AD, Armour and Arty. The Corps HQ attaches other units. The Pakistan Marines do not seem to have any Corps Command for attaching support units to Marine division so i mentioned all units attached with a single Division.

Same is the case with support units: Most infantry divisions have own Signals or Engineers units. Similarly, Corps also have own signals units and sometimes an Engineer Brigade, having three Engineer battalions to attach to its divisions. Every Division has an S & T Battalion. Then there is the Field Medical Unit, Intelligence Unit and Military Police unit with Divisions. I mentioned all of these as Battalions in a Single Support Brigade.

In case of Artillery regiments, usually armoured divisions have own artillery brigades made up of three SP units. Arty Regt is formed up of 12-18 guns formed in three batteries.The three batteries of Arty (e.g P,Q,R) have 6 guns each, each battery of 6 guns supporting one battalion. In ideal condition, one regiment of Artillery supports one infantry/mech/armour Brigade.
AD has same case, usually an AD Brigade attached with an Armoured Div in PA.

The man power in Armour, Arty and AD battalions are less than of an Infantry regiment. First basic difference is that infantry battalions have 4 companies + HQ while Armour, Arty etc have 3 squadrons or batteries + HQ. Next difference is that infantry company has 4 platoons + weapons det like LMG/ Mortar etc. where as Armour has 3 troops of 3-4 tanks each + HQ while artillery has basic 3 x battery of 6 guns.

So as you go down in hierarchy, the armour and Arty start decreasing in number.

This means one Infantry company has 120-150 troops (4 platoons of 25-30 troops each + weapons det of 12-15 troops and HQ)
An armour squadron has 10-12 Tanks + HQ (usually 1 or 2 tanks + transport of 1 APC, 2-3 jeeps + trucks for ammo/tents/rations etc), somewhere around 80-85 troops.

The battalions with 900-1000 troops are Infantry or Mech Infantry, S & T, Signals, Engineers etc. Infact, in worst case scenario Signals, Engineers regts etc can be used in infantry role too.
Do bear in mind that the Mountain formations of infantry are smaller in number than regular infantry battalions which means NLI Regt may have less strength than Baloch Regt, Punjab Regt etc.

If Artillery battalions have 24 guns, then the troop strength will increase but PA artillery regiments mostly have 18 guns of 3 batteries. Similarly, western armies have upto 60 tanks in a single armour battalion , which means 4 squadrons and increase in troops also.

 

[Signalian]

This 12000 force should have Tanks and IFV along with Artillery

They may get seconded equipment from the Army. They should be pretty happy with M 113 to be used in creeks although a wheeled amphibious APC has its own advantages.
I think the Type 59 tanks and 122 mm artillery pieces will make their to the Marines.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Many questions remain unanswered. All we know so far is that it will be headed by a 3 star Admiral.

What will be the purpose of such force?
Why the sudden need for Marines?
Where will they operate? Are they meant to guard Gwadar?
What equipment will they have? Is Pakistan finally getting Amphibious assault ships which are considered vital for any amphibious military to effectively operate?

Pakistan Seeks New Force for Sea Boundaries
ISLAMABAD — Pakistan is to raise a new force to help safeguard its sea boundaries, but analysts are perplexed as to how the force is to be raised even though there is a need to improve security.

The move was announced Tuesday by Pakistan's Minister for Ports and Shipping Senator Kamran Michael who said a force of 12,000 Marines was to be raised and headed by a three star general. He added the Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif had sanctioned the program and the defense ministry had commenced work on establishing the force.

However, neither the defense ministry nor the Pakistan Navy would provide details of the proposed force when contacted by Defense News.

It is not understood how this Marine force will be established, whether it will be an entirely new force, drawn from other Marine units, or an expansion of existing units that will be re-tasked.

There is no time frame given for when it will become operational.

Pakistan's maritime area of interest has been very topical of late.

The move to establish the new force comes as work on the US $36 billion Sino-Pakistani economic corridor to connect Pakistan's deepwater port of Gwadar with western China gets underway, and against the backdrop of an expansion in the size of Pakistan's Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ).

In March the United Nations' Commission on Limits of Continental Shelf also accepted Pakistan's claim to extend its EEZ to the continental shelf limits and extended it from 200 nautical miles to 350. This amounts to an additional 50,000 square kilometers, taking the total EEZ from 240,000 square kilometers to 290,000 square kilometers.

Regarding the establishment of this new force, former Australian defense attache to Islamabad Brian Cloughley says an initiative of this size will take a monumental level of organization and training, the scale of which may not yet be apparent.

"Recruiting, alone, will take years. Of course it's an excellent idea, but it would be better to build on the Coast Guard and the [Maritime Security Agency] — combine and expand the two, under the legal cover of the latter."

Asked as to whether this may be part of the recently announced Sino-Pakistani economic corridor program and if the Chinese would help equip the new force he said, "I have no doubt that the Chinese will be most supportive and will probably provide equipment."

There could yet be another theory as to how the force will be established however. Though the move was announced by the Minister for Ports and Shipping, Cloughley does not believe the force will be tasked solely with port security.

"I think the new force is intended to assume the duties currently performed by the Coast Guard and the Maritime Security Agency (MSA), not just to concentrate on ports."

Similarly, analyst Haris Khan of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank agrees there needs to be some form of change, but that this should focus on capacity building for the MSA.

"What is required is that the MSA needs expansion and it needs to incorporate the Coast Guard," he said. "There is already a viable structure of command and control of the MSA which operates under the supervision of Pakistan Navy."

Highlighting the MSA's assets in having "close to 2,500 personal, four Barkat class OPVs, three Shanghai II class FAC, ten 13 meter interdiction patrol craft, and three BN Defender aircraft", Khan says this provides a good core capability.

The Coast Guard is a land-based paramilitary force currently under control of the Army. The MSA is a maritime paramilitary unit under the control of the Navy.

Analysts dispute the effectiveness of the Coast Guard, but it made headlines this month when it seized just over 3,000kg of hashish during a raid in the town of Pasni, Balochistan. It was destined for the gulf where it would have been worth an estimated US $50 million and is one of the largest ever seizures of the drug.

There is, however, an apparent shortage of assets to effectively patrol the EEZ, and Khan believes "the MSA should be provided more sea vessels for interdiction, more fixed wing aircraft should be added, and particularly helicopters."

There is already some indication of more assets on the way for the MSA.

Last October, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency sent notification to Congress of the State Department's intention to provide eight GRC43M cutters to Pakistan under a foreign military sales transfer.

These are intended to help Pakistan ensure security in its coastal waters and the EEZ.

Though nothing has been heard of this proposal since then, Khan understands it may have progressed to the stage where Pakistani personnel have traveled to the US to undergo training on the type.

Ultimately, however, Khan is unconvinced of the wisdom of establishing a new force, and highlights that there are already a number of organizations of overlapping responsibility including various provincial level Anti Narcotics Force units that complicate matters and drain resources.

"Establishing a brand new organization will take a lot of time and energy and the financial burden would be something the already weak finances of the country cannot bear. This hodgepodge of several different paramilitary forces only creates financial burden."

1. They will serve like the Rangers, only in swampy/river enviroment. They are used to protect the Sir Creek region in Sindh, and are also used in operations similiar to that of the Coast Guard - If we're planning on expanding array of Operations than they will most likely be involved in Operations outside of Country.
2. Dont know... Probably to match the massive amount of hostile troops on the other side of Sir Creek or to get more involved in combat outside of country .
3. They are not meant to guard Gwadar, they will mostly operate in Sir Creek.
4. Same equipment as Rangers, not likely they will get amphibious vehicles.

What made you think I would disagree with that? When I say police I mean law enforcement. Call it Military police, rangers, interior security force I don't care. what we need most of all in Pakistan is absolute sanction of state. You see force has to be arrogated by the state. At the moment the state has lost monopoly over focre,. every two bit a*sshole comes along and challanges the state. The Pakistani state is weaker then a wimpy teenager.

The state has to win back ansolute control over every square inch of the country. That is what soverignity means. We can only do it by having a very stronmg internal force. I don't care what name you give it. for sure it is going to have to be armed like a paramilitary force just to handle Taliban, mad mullahs, mad political pressure groups, criminal groups and other riff raff of society.

The Turks have Jandarma, the Russians the FSB Internal Security troops and other countries with internal problems like China all have very strong internal security police that act like the stormtroopers of the state. They weld the country togather and hold it like a iron vice grip. We need that in our country from the snowy mountains in the north down the plains to the deserts.

General Command of Gendarmerie

Chinese Security Police

SSU

Too fat or too skinny. Solution feed the bast*ards when they too skinny and make fat bas*tards run 5 miles a day. United States Marine requires even a 46 year old Lt.General to pass annual physical test by running 3 miles in less than 33 minutes. Click below. I would have this standard for all men. Also look at that stupd vehicle? Is that a joke? They should have a proper armoured vehicle.

United States Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thats why I don't give a flying frigg for the sea. Can we please get control of our land first please? Pretty please? We can think about sealanes after. Our jokers can't control the land but want to police the sea lanes ...jokers?

Save the money by reducing army by 50,000 men, sell one naval ship, reduce the tank strength by 200 tanks. If India ever attacks the only that is going to stop those ****holes is fear of our nukes not our tanks. All money saved build up the best internal security force in the world and get back control of our country from all the scumbags.

Those Indian's trust me are NOT going to attack us knowing we have nukes. I am more worrried we will lose our country to scumbags while we have our eyes on India. Nukes will keep the Indians safely beyond the border,

I know I am blowing my trumpet but I walk 3 miles everyday in 55 minutes which is in fast pace. I am 53 year old. Those fat pot bellies must be less than 40 and look all that pilau and biryani has done to them.

Rangers arent that required to be fit, the Army does and almost all of them are Fit,

 

[Indus Pakistan]

1. They will serve like the Rangers, only in swampy/river enviroment. They are used to protect the Sir Creek region in Sindh, and are also used in operations similiar to that of the Coast Guard - If we're planning on expanding array of Operations than they will most likely be involved in Operations outside of Country.
2. Dont know... Probably to match the massive amount of hostile troops on the other side of Sir Creek or to get more involved in combat outside of country .
3. They are not meant to guard Gwadar, they will mostly operate in Sir Creek.
4. Same equipment as Rangers, not likely they will get amphibious vehicles.



SSU

Rangers arent that required to be fit, the Army does and almost all of them are Fit,

All military, paramilitary should be fit. In fact uniformed organizations should have minimum level of fitness.

And the SSU fits the bill 100% but it appears to be just a token outfit. It should be in every corner of the country which would require massive inestment and huge increase in manpower. Every village should be covered by such unit. This can be done if a unit is detailed to every tehsil hq and is fully mobile so can react to any village within a tehsil. We need Turkish style Jandarma that covers every nook of the country.

I have clocked 50. I am not and never have been military However every day as matter of respect to my body I jog/walk 2 miles minimum come sun, rain or snow. I do this with time limit of 40 minutes. This used to be lower but as you get older you have to adjust. So I can't see why any ranger should be fat. It is uniformed para military organization. Drill and discipline are paramount. If they can't keep up pension them. It is not like we have shortage of men in our country.

Consider US Marines. They even require their General officers to meet minimum fitness test. That is why you won't get a fat marine General. Drill, discipline and fitness is very important. Did you see the Chinese military, police or marine marching

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

Bloody waste of money. What is the point of Marines? What seaborne attack are we contemplating? Attacking Oman? Or securing the sea?

First please, please please can we secure Karachi and FATA then we can think of the sea.

Well Karachi and FATA is a problem which the army will take care of , its none of the Navy's concern , The navy has its own ambition , it needs to protect the new projects and ports .

WTF?! dont we already have marines then whats new about these ones?

We only had 2000 marines but now as the corridor and the gawadar project are underway we need more protection for those billion dollar projects

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Firstly just 2,000 Marines is not appropriate number

A welcomed move it should be close to 40,000 Troops for Navy
12,000 is not enough for nation size of Pakistan with 180 Million population.


My thought is


15,000 would be designated towards Asset Security Navy Ports and defense, Commandos

5,000
Sailors for 4-6 F22P (new purchases)
8 New Sub
2 more OHP operations

20,000 would be
> Aviation corps Jets /Helicopters (Pilots, Mechanical Engineers, Ground officers)
> Amphibious Assault (Soldiers , Commandos), boarding ships
> Fast attack boat crew
> Coastal Defense force (Operating Missiles / SAMs anti-ship)

 

[Humble Analyst]

Firstly just 2,000 Marines is not appropriate number

A welcomed move it should be close to 40,000 Troops for Navy
12,000 is not enough for nation size of Pakistan with 180 Million population.


My thought is


15,000 would be designated towards Asset Security Navy Ports and defense, Commandos

5,000
Sailors for 4-6 F22P (new purchases)
8 New Sub
2 more OHP operations

20,000 would be
> Aviation corps Jets /Helicopters (Pilots, Mechanical Engineers, Ground officers)
> Amphibious Assault (Soldiers , Commandos), boarding ships
> Fast attack boat crew
> Coastal Defense force (Operating Missiles / SAMs anti-ship)

Who is paying the salaries?

 

[Vortex]

Who is paying the salaries?

We have thebest taxe collections system, strong economy, strong industrial base, etc and we don't depend on FMI, China, Saudia, and others who help us....

"Oh wake up Vortex !"

"Mmmmm Oh sh!t ! You broke my dream"

 

[wiseone2]

Who is paying the salaries?

there is also training costs and operational costs

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Bloody waste of money. What is the point of Marines? What seaborne attack are we contemplating? Attacking Oman? Or securing the sea?

First please, please please can we secure Karachi and FATA then we can think of the sea.

Pak Marines have been activate since decades ... They were disbanded in the 70s... And in 90? Formed again... These 12,000 troops are addition to the Marines (which already "exist")
Primarily tasked with protecting Pakistani shores,and Indo Pak borders like sir creek,kutch i.e: south eastern border etc

there is also training costs and operational costs

I'm sure Marine corps can absorve 12,000 troops... The whole thing has been in thw works since long.. All thought out !

Firstly just 2,000 Marines is not appropriate number

A welcomed move it should be close to 40,000 Troops for Navy
12,000 is not enough for nation size of Pakistan with 180 Million population.


My thought is


15,000 would be designated towards Asset Security Navy Ports and defense, Commandos

5,000
Sailors for 4-6 F22P (new purchases)
8 New Sub
2 more OHP operations

20,000 would be
> Aviation corps Jets /Helicopters (Pilots, Mechanical Engineers, Ground officers)
> Amphibious Assault (Soldiers , Commandos), boarding ships
> Fast attack boat crew
> Coastal Defense force (Operating Missiles / SAMs anti-ship)

Marines are Naval infantry -- a branch of Pak Navy... They operate Hovercrafts,fast assault/attack boats,APCs and utility/cargo planes etc.. Hopefully they will be given more firepower.

http://www.paknavy.gov.pk/ssg_Marines.html

 

[Jat Boy]

12000 MEN... thats the EASY part for nation of 200 million.

If you really want TO IMPRESS SOME ONE tell us

How many landing ships
How Many landing craft
Hoe many transport helicopters
Speacial elite marine weapons
Camo and uniform
How many attack ships
Hover craft
Radars
Missles
UCAV to these unit.

TOTAL COST AND TIME SCALE

12000 MARINES ON THEIR OWN AND 9 PAGES OF BACK SLAPPING IS BORING AND EMPTY HALLOW

GIVE US MORE DETAIL PLEASE ?????????????

PS

These marines are they a Naval commando force like USA seals or dare i say

MARCOS of the indian Navy

these number less than 2000 PERSONNEL.

or is Pak marines like USA marine CORPS which is huge like a extension of your ARMY

IF LIKE USA MARINE CORPS even to equip 12000 MEN THIS A DIVSION SIZE and equip with typical marine hardware will cost $billions

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Ideally Marines should get more

a) Navy Helicopters
b) Navy JF17 Variants
c) Anti Ship Missile launchers from Coastal Areas
d) APC for Navy base and Asset protection
e) UAV armed for Patrolling close border zones

Coastal Defense should be given to Navy as primary and Military forces secondary backup

 

[Humble Analyst]

Ideally Marines should get more

a) Navy Helicopters
b) Navy JF17 Variants
c) Anti Ship Missile launchers from Coastal Areas
d) APC for Navy base and Asset protection
e) UAV armed for Patrolling close border zones

Coastal Defense should be given to Navy as primary and Military forces secondary backup

Also need helos/drones for convoy/Pipe line protection/scouting/surveillance. Tactically stationed rapid response units are needed as well.

 

[Zarvan]

Ideally Marines should get more

a) Navy Helicopters
b) Navy JF17 Variants
c) Anti Ship Missile launchers from Coastal Areas
d) APC for Navy base and Asset protection
e) UAV armed for Patrolling close border zones

Coastal Defense should be given to Navy as primary and Military forces secondary backup

We need Amphibious APC and Anti Tank Vechiles and other equipment

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Also need helos/drones for convoy/Pipe line protection/scouting/surveillance. Tactically stationed rapid response units are needed as well.

Marines already operate UAVs.
2013;

PN chief visits UAV fleet in creek areas - Newspaper - DAWN.COM

We need Amphibious APC and Anti Tank Vechiles and other equipment

Amphibious APCs are useless in the AOR Marines operate in.. Which is mostly water bodies and marshy terrain.. For which they use hovercrafts and one of the best assault boats and even FAC's.

As for anti tank stuff... They are equipped with the same weapons (in infantry role) as (army) infantry.