Pakistan To Participate In Turkey’s TFX Next-Gen Fighter Aircraft Program

[The Eagle]

My gut tells me that this will probably be an industry level partnership with TAI sending some valuable work to PAC in exchange for T-129 and MILGEM contracts - i.e. offsets. Of course, the industry element could lead to the PAF buying a few TFX to begin replacing F-16s, but that need not happen. PAC also made Anka UAV parts, even though neither the PAF or the PA bought Anka UAVs.

"Pakistan and Turkey are about to spend a great deal of time on the defense industry, and with the approach of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan," Turkey should produce a national war plane, "Turkey will start to produce its own national war plane in 10 years. First, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) will provide support for the integration of our factory, and the second phase will be a business alliance with the British Air Force, and at that point we will be the partner of this program in Pakistan. "

 

[skybolt]

"Pakistan and Turkey are about to spend a great deal of time on the defense industry, and with the approach of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan," Turkey should produce a national war plane, "Turkey will start to produce its own national war plane in 10 years. First, the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) will provide support for the integration of our factory, and the second phase will be a business alliance with the British Air Force, and at that point we will be the partner of this program in Pakistan. "

Good news

 

[ejaz007]

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) and BAE Systems have announced

that they will ink the TFX design and development agreement that was signed by both companies in January at this year’s International Defence Industry Fair (IDEF) 2017. Valued at almost $130 million, the deal will see BAE assisting TAI with the design and development of the TFX next-generation multi-role fighter. It has also been reported that Pakistan may be interested in participating in the project, with Turkish industry and Pakistan’s Ministry of Defence Production speaking on what future collaboration would look like. However, the Pakistan Air Force has yet to comment on whether it would be interested in participating in producing and procuring such an aircraft.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/

 

[tarrar]

TFX is on route of development as deal has been finalised with RollsRoyce for TFX engine & BAE will help in design & etc.

There is a very good possibility of Pakistan joining this project which will be good for both the countries in terms of sharing experience & ideas.

 

[-------]

Some early models F-16s will be replaced by F-35 and the rest of F-16s fleet will be replaced by TFX by next.

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) are about to embark on a F-16 service life extension (SLE) for all 35 Turkish Air Force Block 30s.

TAI are the prime contractors and Lockheed Martin is the sub-contractor which will provide the engineering kits. Work on the first two aircraft, a single-seat F-16C and dual seat F-16D, will commence this November at the TAI Ankara facility.

With flight testing the work should take about a year and once proved, will see the SLE commence on the remaining 33 jets.

TAI will complete work on the first 25 aircraft before the work is transferred to the 1st Air Maintenance Support Centre (AMSC) at Eskisehir.

http://www.monch.com/mpg/news/11-air/1429-tai-to-extend-life-of-turaf-f-16s.html

No news on what type of Avionics upgrades those 33 Jets will get, they certainly won't extend life without some avionics upgrades. So I'm assuming, they will get Ozgur Avionics package developed in collaboration with TAI and Aselsan.

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[cabatli_53]

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Big fan of good will

 

[Path-Finder]

I have read the flurry of comments while it is very good news but TFX is the project of the next decade! In this decade it is begining but it will reach readiness in the 2020's. However in the meantime there are many opportunities to learn and procure equipment from Turkey. ASELPOD has been obtained! But I see possibility of AESA radar A2A missile's newly unveiled this year along with possibly HMDCS can come from Turkey as well.

 

[cabatli_53]

According to a reliable source, Pakistan, Azerbaijan and Turkey signed a deal to establish a common infrastructure of flight trainings. In this aspect, It is agreed to have same type of training aircrafts from same origin to achieve this common concept.

Selected aircrafts!

-Primary level: SuperMushak
-Basic level: Hürkuş-B/C
-Advanced level: Hürjet (Trainer/Close support)

At present, It is being talked to purchase Hürkuş, SuperMushak and Hürjet trainer/fighters for Azerbaijan,Turkey and Pakistan. According to info, Hürjet aircrafts will be operated in Pakistan/Azerbaijan not only for advanced trainer, but also for auxiliary fighter aircraft.

 

[Cookie Monster]

According to a reliable source, Pakistan, Azerbaijan and Turkey signed a deal to establish a common infrastructure of flight trainings. In this aspect, It is agreed to have same type of training aircrafts from same origin to achieve this common concept.

Selected aircrafts!

-Primary level: SuperMushak
-Basic level: Hürkuş-B/C
-Advanced level: Hürjet (Trainer/Close support)

In this aspect, It is being talked to purchase Hürkuş and Hürjet trainer/fighters to Azerbaijan and Pakistan, While Turkey and Azerbaijan to purchase Super Mushak. According to info, Hürjet will be operated in Pakistan/Azerbaijan not only for advanced trainer, but also for auxiliary fighter aircraft.

Where does that leave K8 trainers? Since Pak has already jointly developed K8 with China...would that then be a lost investment?

Or can K8 somehow still fit into the picture?

If Pak/Azerbaijan/Turkey go the route of
Primary: SuperMushak
Basic: K8 Karakoram
Advanced: Hürjet

Wouldn't that be better bcuz it will cut down on the cost of Turkish development of Hürkuş. Additionally since SuperMushak is already a turboprop...wouldnt it be better to next train the pilots on a jet K8(instead of another turboprop Hürkuş) and then another advanced jet Hürjet? Since they are being trained to fly jet fighters...the more exposure to jet trainers the better.

 

[SQ8]

Where does that leave K8 trainers? Since Pak has already jointly developed K8 with China...would that then be a lost investment?

Or can K8 somehow still fit into the picture?

If Pak/Azerbaijan/Turkey go the route of
Primary: SuperMushak
Basic: K8 Karakoram
Advanced: Hürjet

Wouldn't that be better bcuz it will cut down on the cost of Turkish development of Hürkuş. Additionally since SuperMushak is already a turboprop...wouldnt it be better to next train the pilots on jet K8(instead of another turboprop Hürkuş) and then another advanced jet Hürjet? Since they are being trained to fly jet fighters...the more exposure to jet trainers the better.

Pakistan will skip the Hurkus... keep the K-8. The Hurjet is a long way off to see if it ends up replacing the F-7s at mianwali.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Pakistan will skip the Hurkus... keep the K-8. The Hurjet is a long way off to see if it ends up replacing the F-7s at mianwali.

On the other hand, the Hürjet is enough of a long way out to save pennies for if and when the time comes to order...

 

[cabatli_53]

Hürjet’s Light Attack configuration will share the role of F-16 Aircraft as Lead-in Fighter Trainer and Close Air Support in the 2020's with its 3000 kg payload. Hürjet is expected to be used for Close Air Support, Red Aircraft and Air Policing (or board security and counterterrorism) missions by Turkey and allied countries.

Main objectives of the project are:

• Fulfillment of the TurAF’s operational, functional and performance requirements regarding jet trainer and light attack aircraft, by designing and developing an indigenous system utilizing readily available technologies to keep the unit and ownership costs low.
• Replacement of the current TurAF T-38 fleet, consisting of about 70 aircraft. The production volume may increase depending on the “Light Attack Aircraft” needs of TurAF and/or potential customers.

The maximum speed of Hürjet will be Mach 1.2; the maximum altitude will be 45,000 ft.

——

That’s what TAI tells about Hürjet. Hürjet will serve as close air supppot, air patrolling roles additions to training mission. Twin engine enables it to carry relatively heavy payload capacity (3000kg). It seems Turkey and partners will try to hit two birds with one stone.

I don’t have much details about roles of K-8 in Pakistan Airforce so I don’t know whether Hürkus and K-8 is competitors to replace eacother in same training level because of One is a jet powered while other one is turbop.

 

[blinder]

Both can work. The Hürkus is in the same class as the PC-9 I think? The USAF have replaced their T-37 with the T-6 (PC-9) too. The Swiss, like I commented in another topic, use only PC-7 and PC-21 before the F/A-18 for example (although the PC-21 is in a league of its own).
So it will require some changes in the streamlining of the syllabus but it can certainly work.

It all boils down to the cost per flight hour. Normally, a turboprop aircraft is cheaper to operate than a jet aircraft. Also, the built quality and airframe hours come in to play. No idea how the Hürkus scores in that regard, but the initial K-8s and F-7P were from a time decades ago that China was still gaining experience in the field of high-end aircraft manufacturing. I would wager a bet that the airframe hours on those aircraft are even less than advertised. Pakistan had to make many improvements and work closely with China before the aircraft were up to the required standard as I recall.

Building a joint-training center makes absolute sense. Many examples exist in the world. The trend of contracting out those flight training hours instead of maintaining your own platforms is also used more frequently these days. In that case the AF do not own the aircraft but lease training hours.

 

[araz]

I think Pakistan will send some engineering teams for TFX program - to learn tidbits about western tech for 5th gen. aircraft - and will collaborate with China on J-31 (may manufacture some parts in PAC for Pakistan procured J-31) and may replace some Chinese tech with Western tech for her 5th gen. aircrafts. A mix of east-west tech.

PAF has been collaborating with TAI and there has been an ongoing pilot exchange programme ongoing with Turkish AF and PAF. As to flow of technology, I am not sure which way it will flow. Please remember that we have had ongoing participation and partnership with CATIC. We have been working with them on undisclosed programmes along with the JFT. Iam quite happy to be taught the level of involvement of TAI in the 16s programme. How much of local content was there in this programme? I know the avionics and electronic source codes were Turrkish.
It seems to me that the likely flow of information may flow equally both ways especially if Turkey decides to manufacture Engines. Our interests will also depend on the level of advancement the Chinese make. If their engine Tech moves forward we may not have to look elsewhere. So this talk of participation in this or that programme depends on which partner gains what from the project. Towards the late 20s the Chinese will be more advanced and provided we dont get sold down the river by our politicians our knowlexge base would have advanced significantly.
A

Pakistan will skip the Hurkus... keep the K-8. The Hurjet is a long way off to see if it ends up replacing the F-7s at mianwali.

To my synical soul it seems unlikely. I suspect if push comes to shove we might either use the JFT 17B or procure a small number of platforms from China or a third party. It should not be a priority for us.
A