Pakistan to buy old F-16s from Jordan - Chapter closed for new F-16s blk-52s from US

[SQ8]

Is the DASH HMD/S (for JF-17) doable through this mechanism?

No, that is a complete system that would require either Turkey to act as it has with ASELPOD or the South Africans reverse engineering it.

 

[Piper]

Considering the Jordanians were the conduit for purchasing spares from Israel in the early 90's .. I see no change in them doing the same with used F-16s.

In this case do you mean, that Israelis will offload their F-16s to Pakistan through Jordan? I am sure that something got lost in translation.

 

[Pakistanisfirst]

Good move though Pakistan doesnot need these aircraft desperately Pak unfortunately using these jets for along time and setup all infrastructure for these jets that is why they want to maintain few squadrons of f-16s otherwise Block-3 of JF-17s would be better than block 52 in the near future. Pak is maintain minimum defense which is the right of the country to save its home land from the west and hindu doctrine.

 

[volatile]

I think it was a set of bad circumstances regarding M2Ks. M2Ks in their current iteration are a totally different beast to M3,/5S. SO so no commonality and new infrastructure. Last time the price quoted for armie de air M2K5s was 60million a pop. If it was not worth it in 2002-3 it is certainly not worth it now.
A

I was refering to the used ones that how difficult it will be to integrate considering todays infrastructure and back in 2002/2003 Rafale was already making in roads so inducting newer ones doesnt make sense it was mid 1990`s when Mirage 2000 were evaluated correct me if i m wrong please .

 

[Sharpshooter12]

Bhai agreed after getting 40 F 16 than they put ban on F 16 at least till 91 PAF knew that we can't afford relying on usa so they started Thunder project agreed to counterF 16 ban and get similar class multiple jet

So why PAF not thought of new infrastructure and training for thunder as it was with SU 35

Bhai are you comparing induction of Thunders with SU 35? We are planning to induct 150 if not more JF-17s, this is the economy of sclae, how can we compare that with induction of 2 squardons of SU-35. And Thunders have provided PAF and PAC with immense knowledge, experience and technical skills and saved a lot of foreign reserves as well. Are the Russians willing to put an assembley line here in Kamra, there is no comparison between the two situations.

Biggest example please answer me why those so called better F 16 can't stop mirage 2000 in kargil war don't tell me BVR missile if it is a case than can u guarantee me may be USA sell india a better missile than BVR to counter F 16

And what is stopping US from giving Indians better missiles and counter-measures even if we don't get those F-16s.

In 1999 Pakistan was one of the most sanctioned country in the world. We did not have any BVR capability and even if we would have followed any other path instead of F-16s like the Mirage 2000s from France we would not have been provided the BVR capability. So let's suppose we got Mirage 2000 in 80's instead of F-16's, do you think the US would have allowed France to provide us with that top of line techonology of the time when we were under heavy sanctions. Getting old and obsolete Mirage III/V is one thing BVR is another.

SU 35 is best available option to replace our ageing F 7 or Mirages iiii at least out of 200 50 SU 35 WILL do world of good

100 F 16
150. JF 17
50 SU 35

i think it won't be training or infrastructure burden as we already using 4 jets of infrastructure and training wouldn't be better to have 3

With it we will have much need firepower of SU 35

Chinese bought SU 35 after even having overwhelming number of SU 30 J 11 J 10

Because it can take on any threat head on

50 SU 35's ?? With each of the plane itself costing around $ 65 Million how many can we actually afford. And don't just take the cost of a fly-away plane, there are numerous other costs that you have to keep in mind when inducting a new platform. As was in the Rafale case for India, the fly-away cost is about $ 100 Million but the deal that France was proposing meant India would have got each plane for about $ 300 Million, which they now have lowered to $ 220 Million.

Chinese bought 24 SU 35s for more than 2 Billion dollars and that is the initial cost that they will be paying to the Russians and does not include the infrastructure and other costs.

So these 50 SU 35's that you are proposing can easily cost us around $ 5 Billlion, do you think we have that much money, and there will be recurring expenses as well that PAF will have to cover from their meager annual budget. Again we dropped the idea of 8 F-16 Block 52s because we can not pay 700 Million dollors for them. With the Russian economy growing at about 0.4 percent I don't think they will afford giving a soft loan for this.

And besides who told you they are serious in selling us those planes. In their right mind that will suicidal as India is still one of the largest importer of Russian hardware and will remain so for decade or more even with all the western goodies that they are getting. Selling us their top of the line stuff will be a monumental shift in Russian policy and it does not seem plausible. Indians have much deeper pockets than we have so it does not make sense for Russia to antagonize them.

 

[araz]

I was refering to the used ones that how difficult it will be to integrate considering todays infrastructure and back in 2002/2003 Rafale was already making in roads so inducting newer ones doesnt make sense it was mid 1990`s when Mirage 2000 were evaluated correct me if i m wrong please .

It will mean a totally new infrastructure. The difficulty is the M2K assembly line shut down in 2002. So in short not a good step for the money spent. The french will obviously shove the Rafale down your throat as they make more money that way.
So aint gonna happen.
The M2K Saga is long. PAF evaluated them in the early 80s(I think 84-86) then again in the 90s when Benazir was in power and last time in 2002.First time there was a problem with its Radar which is why PAF rejected it. Second time Zardari happened to it, but interestingly the deal was represented by PAF 90 days later after the fall of the Benazir government and the French refused the sale suggesting more hands than just Zardari from both sides were involved. The last time the price quoted was so high and with a shut assembly lineand the notorious french overcharging for repairs a plane that had reached its maximum potential and was not upgradeable and a hint of gettting more F16s meant that the offer was rightly rejected.
A

 

[Kao Boy]

No use of old jets, it will only make mockery of the Government. BTW Pakistan Gov. is planning to hire a Lobying Company just to make sure that future military procurement does not get affected like the F-16 Deal. However, the Government and Military is also skeptical of possible lobbying company use by CIA so search is underway..

 

[Sharpshooter12]

France never had any problems selling weapons to pakistan. The sanction was from the US and american weapons.

The early 90 mirage m2k's that were available to pakistan were more advanced that any that india had---and would have stayed so for awhile.

France had no objections on selling BVR capability.

If you are so worried about financing---then make a proposal for eternal peace with India.

One cannot fight a war and cry for funding as well. Wars are expensive and getting ready for war is more expensive.

If that is the case then we surely made a mistake by not choosing the mirages. And this might very well be true as we did buy Agosta 90-B's from them in the 90's so yes I stand corrected those mirages would have come with BVR capability.

I agree wars are expensive but we are already spending more than 3 percent of the GDP on defense and if one look at those news about ABMs coming out of India then it seems they are trying to pull us into an arms race. If we oblige them just like the Soviets did with the American Star Wars program we will very well go bankrupt.

Look at the present situation our federal budget was about $43 Billion out of which $14 Billion went into debt payments. Then out of the rest of the $29 Billion we are spending $9 Billion on our defense already. And that does not include the cost for the operations that we are running. We are already lagging behind not only the world but our own region barred Afghanistan when it comes to HDI and literacy rate. Hell we are perhaps the only country in the world where the litteracy rate dropped in the last year.

We have to accept the reality and we should not try to match India in defense procurement, quite simply because we can't. Their defense budget of $51 Billion is about 5.7 times that of ours and still constitues only 2 percent of their GDP. Their literacy rate is rising and their HDI is improving and is higher than ours.

We can not expect a victory out of a war with India but we can make war with Pakistan really costly for India and that is what Pakistani forces are quite capable of.