Pakistan to buy old F-16s from Jordan - Chapter closed for new F-16s blk-52s from US

[CHACHA"G"]

lol we are ready to buy old m2k(if that the cause , its lookalike because Rafale going to India) now , but we did not bought them in 90s when they were have some use ,

And Guess what we wont buy a new bird name J10c or d (Pakistani variant ) which will give us 1000% more then M2K , like a bird that almost equal F16 block 60 , affordable , can come with TOT , less running cost in future , can replace all Mirages and can bring diversity , delta wing benefits , medium leg single engine (heavy) with some extra tanks it will be long leg , can stay in service till 2045 to 2050 , almost 4.5++ or 4++ Gen bird,,, etc , etc

and for F16 man come on , for 16 old birds from Jorden , first we need MLU kits and then we need 5 years spear parts stock , who the hell here thinks its a cheap deal or beast deal , keep in mind after spending money on MLU they will still remain inferior to Block 52 .

Best options are go for J10 , have a Pakistani variant , replace all Mirages . 2nd Upgrade JF17 change engine , upgrade airframe , use composite material , bring more advance avionics , just have a new type of JF17 a completely new block . And build them in numbers .
These 2 can give PAF numbers with advance Tech and Gen , after having them we can go for heavy bird , please remember only 150 JF17 with 100 old F16 and only few like 36 heavy wont be enough for IAF , it will be a suicide if we send PAF in war with IAF , or war lost even before its start (if you want to put it nicely ) .
Please keep in mind SU35 or Mig 35 we are not in position to have over 100 of any if available .
so morel of the story is
Build economy , have J10 , upgrade JF17 , put money in J31 and in TFX and try to buy few like 36 of Any Heavy Bird like SU-35 , Mig-35 , Typhon or any other available.

Thank you all

 

[ziaulislam]

Yes, You were...
When Musharraf visited Sweden in 2004, Pakistan wanted to discuss buying 40 Gripen
"since they were better than the F-16".
They were told to forget it, but EriEye was OK.

http://www.sydsvenskan.se/2004-06-19/pakistan-vill-kopa-40-jas-plan

you can find news link for dozen different types of aircraft from mig35, su 35, rafale, euro, apart from serious discussion on J 10 and SAAB AWECS nothing else was really serious

 

[araz]

Any idea how different or difficult /different if some how we can land some old Mirage 2000 frames to replace Mirages 3/5 of overs .Also this has been posted by several members that we handed over France to Indian`s .Alas any ways what done is done ,new platform is a must why we need a dedicated AD role lange range BVR capable ,lets not forget that one SU35 can take work load of 2 F17 or 1.5 F16

I think it was a set of bad circumstances regarding M2Ks. M2Ks in their current iteration are a totally different beast to M3,/5S. SO so no commonality and new infrastructure. Last time the price quoted for armie de air M2K5s was 60million a pop. If it was not worth it in 2002-3 it is certainly not worth it now.
A

 

[Super Falcon]

Bhai 40 was not the number that Pakistan was hoping for in 83, it was 110 but presler messed it up. If the PAF knew they will be flying just 40 planes for about 2 decades I don't think they would have opted for F-16s. Now don't start on see we can't trust US and PAF should have known, we are talking about setting up infrastructure for just 40 planes here.

Currently we have I guess upwards of 80 F-16's, then there are JF-17's, F-7 PGs who are here to stay for a while. Then there are legacy fighters like F-7s, Mirage III/Vs. So how much diversity do you want. In a perfect world we should have a dedicated naval strike platform, a deep-strike platform and a pure air-superiority fighter. But when you have 200 legacy planes to replace and your whole defence budget is about $ 8.9 Billion you will have to make compromises. This budget has to cater to the needs of world's sixth largest military and it is not even in the top 20 military budgets of the world. So our armed forces are doing a wonderful job when it comes to using these meager funds to create a respectable force.

Bhai all these countries that you have mentioned are not cash strapped as we are. Omanis and Kuwaitis have only about 30 frontline fighters, Indonesia has about 8 frontline squardons while PAF has 20 so you can't really compare them with PAF. As for the Emiratis and Saudis, their defence budgets are $23 Billion and $ 80 Billion respectively so they do afford induction of different platforms and even then they are using 3 types of front-line aircrafts while we are already using 5. India was using multiple platforms and it did not work that well for them so they are reducing the number of platforms. The F-35 program for the US was actually planned to reduce the number of platforms. So how does it make sense that we add another platform and that too just worth 2 squardons.

As I said US did not ban F-16 sale they just asked us to pay the whole amount and we can't do that as we lack cash. With investments going into JF-17s and those big ticket purchases for the PN how much budget do you think is left for the PAF for procurement. If we had the cash Kuwaitis, Emiratis or Suadis have then surely you would have seen some cool new planes but we are stuck with Nanga nahaye ga kya Nichoray ga kya wali situation.

Bhai agreed after getting 40 F 16 than they put ban on F 16 at least till 91 PAF knew that we can't afford relying on usa so they started Thunder project agreed to counterF 16 ban and get similar class multiple jet

So why PAF not thought of new infrastructure and training for thunder as it was with SU 35

OK let's suppose they do not now they got thunder why they keep going to same old problematic F 16

Even if we get 100 F 16 in time of war you do not get spares from usa so useless

Biggest example please answer me why those so called better F 16 can't stop mirage 2000 in kargil war don't tell me BVR missile if it is a case than can u guarantee me may be USA sell india a better missile than BVR to counter F 16

Fact I'd these jets are just bought for calendar shoot ofs whenever we needed these F 16 against india they do nothing just been grounded


F 16 is a PAF ego to get it to 100 no matter what even usa spit on our face

SU 35 is best available option to replace our ageing F 7 or Mirages iiii at least out of 200 50 SU 35 WILL do world of good

100 F 16
150. JF 17
50 SU 35

i think it won't be training or infrastructure burden as we already using 4 jets of infrastructure and training wouldn't be better to have 3

With it we will have much need firepower of SU 35

Chinese bought SU 35 after even having overwhelming number of SU 30 J 11 J 10

Because it can take on any threat head on

 

[SQ8]

Considering the Jordanians were the conduit for purchasing spares from Israel in the early 90's .. I see no change in them doing the same with used F-16s.

 

[araz]

Considering the Jordanians were the conduit for purchasing spares from Israel in the early 90's .. I see no change in them doing the same with used F-16s.

Thank you maestro. The nay sayers live in a different world where planes and money grows on trees and you can just sit in a plane and drive away into the wild blue yonder. And forget about infrastructure ,repairs and spares.
A

 

[zebra7]

I think it was a set of bad circumstances regarding M2Ks. M2Ks in their current iteration are a totally different beast to M3,/5S. SO so no commonality and new infrastructure. Last time the price quoted for armie de air M2K5s was 60million a pop. If it was not worth it in 2002-3 it is certainly not worth it now.
A

I think the best option for the PAF is MIG 35, and will have comonity of the engine with the JF-17, and later if inducted J-31.

Hi,

F16 is about to be discontinued as well.

One purpose of a heavy strike aircraft with long legs to take the battle away from predicted areas of strike of a medium or a light aircraft.

That will make the enemy move its concentrated assets and disperse them farther out---thus making the line of defense thinner & possibly weaker.

The main emphasis during WW2 before the start of the invasion by the allies was to create an illusion / fake move so that the enemy moves its concentrated weapons and troops from a certain area to another---thus weakening its position and permitting a successful strike.

In an aircraft like a JF17---it has very limited over the seas abilities---to travel the maximum distance---it has to fly close to the shoreline---thus becoming a focus of enemy defenses.

A JH7B type aircraft can fly 300---400 miles away from the enemy shoreline---fly as far as it can get---launch its weapons from a standoff distance at targets that were never felt vulnerable before.

The issue over here and the vote for a long legged aircraft is to strike those areas that have never been stricken before---.

The reason being---the public of that area will be in a massive panic after the strikes that it would create a major chaos in the community---and chaos is a pre-cursor to anarchy and other problems.

So---it is simply not a SEAD or a DEAD mission issue over here. When this aircraft can carryy 12 BVR's and can host an aesa radar with around 1500-1600 T/R modules---can act as your Growler aircraft---a pointman when carrying out anti ship missions etc---.

A futue carrier of air launched Babur cruise missiles----the utilities are endless---but for a pakistan to accept his errors is like impossible.

The utility of any machine is a frame of mind---and without a bomber---an air force is incomplete.

Mastanbhai, JH7B is a ground attack aircraft, and in the present scenario, to breach the enemy Airspace, you need more than 12 BVR carrying capability (The plane would become a fat elephant, and easy target for the interceptor flying at the tail).

Second 1500 T/R modules does not makes it a Growler, its the brute force of Electronic Warfare Jammer -- Noise Jammer, Barrage Jamming over the wide range of frequency.

Third the biggest Aim of the PAF should not to hit the target deep inside India, rather to foil the IAF operation inside the Pakistani Airspace. And before thinking to do the operation deep inside the enemy space, gaurded with strong Air defence, you should analyse the risk involved and the Gain achieved over such long distance.

Fourth, the time have changed, and with the increase of the Air defence, you cannot deny the SEAD and DEAD operation, before the Bombers such as JH7B to actually flex its mussle properly, before that speaking such loosely is only for those, who would not be sitting in its cockpit.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think the best option for the PAF is MIG 35, and will have comonity of the engine with the JF-17, and later if inducted J-31.



Mastanbhai, JH7B is a ground attack aircraft, and in the present scenario, to breach the enemy Airspace, you need more than 12 BVR carrying capability (The plane would become a fat elephant, and easy target for the interceptor flying at the tail).

Second 1500 T/R modules does not makes it a Growler, its the brute force of Electronic Warfare Jammer -- Noise Jammer, Barrage Jamming over the wide range of frequency.

Third the biggest Aim of the PAF should not to hit the target deep inside India, rather to foil the IAF operation inside the Pakistani Airspace. And before thinking to do the operation deep inside the enemy space, gaurded with strong Air defence, you should analyse the risk involved and the Gain achieved over such long distance.

Fourth, the time have changed, and with the increase of the Air defence, you cannot deny the SEAD and DEAD operation, before the Bombers such as JH7B to actually flex its mussle properly, before that speaking such loosely is only for those, who would not be sitting in its cockpit.

Hi,

IO did not say that the aesa radar does the growler type of missions---I just gave its supposed radar a size and mentioned growler type capabilties that the aircraft can be used for---obvioulsy with an EW jammer.

You will see the beauty of the deep target strikes---and appreciate it very much once it happens

The thing is that as it flying 400 miles away from the coastline---it will be out of the reach of any ground batteries---.

It can go straight down in the ocean---make a right turn at any desired place and launch standoff weapons----next to impossible to counter attack.

And once the strikes are made----the enemy will move their assets from the critical areas to cover its flanks.

 

[zebra7]

Hi,

IO did not say that the aesa radar does the growler type of missions---I just gave its supposed radar a size and mentioned growler type capabilties that the aircraft can be used for---obvioulsy with an EW jammer.

You will see the beauty of the deep target strikes---and appreciate it very much once it happens

The thing is that as it flying 400 miles away from the coastline---it will be out of the reach of any ground batteries---.

It can go straight down in the ocean---make a right turn at any desired place and launch standoff weapons----next to impossible to counter attack.

And once the strikes are made----the enemy will move their assets from the critical areas to cover its flanks.

Mastan Bhai, the next war would be swift, sharp, High intensity, Net centric, and most Important SHORT.

Its the Supersonic Cruise Missile, which would be the first wave of attack on the prime Air fields, Radar Installation, Strategic targets. Flying 400 Miles away from the coastline for What ??? No body sends 400 Miles away and leaving its own airspace open.

I am unable to understand your strategy but if you need long range bomber then why JH7B for Strategic purpose, why not proper Strategic Bomber TU 22M Backfire, I believe China have all the jigs and tools to produce them.

Yeah Indian Navy have them for Strategic Mission.

Or if you can buy from Russia then TU-160 Blackjack

Hope you would agree that both India and Pakistan are not US and USSR/Russia and don't have such Mission.

So I think the time have come that you end your J7HB theory for good and discuss the best option for PAF in the present scenario.

 

[Great Sachin]

Why you guys love F16 so much...buy new chinese plane....or make more JF17 ..specially when most of you argue that JF17 is as good as F16s

 

[baqai]

hehehe puri dunya ki larki dekh lu magar shadi khala ki beti sai hi hu gi ... PAF seem to be in that situation :p :p :p

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Bhai, the next war would be swift, sharp, High intensity, Net centric, and most Important SHORT.

Its the Supersonic Cruise Missile, which would be the first wave of attack on the prime Air fields, Radar Installation, Strategic targets. Flying 400 Miles away from the coastline for What ??? No body sends 400 Miles away and leaving its own airspace open.

I am unable to understand your strategy but if you need long range bomber then why JH7B for Strategic purpose, why not proper Strategic Bomber TU 22M Backfire, I believe China have all the jigs and tools to produce them.

Yeah Indian Navy have them for Strategic Mission.

Or if you can buy from Russia then TU-160 Blackjack

Hope you would agree that both India and Pakistan are not US and USSR/Russia and don't have such Mission.

So I think the time have come that you end your J7HB theory for good and discuss the best option for PAF in the present scenario.

Hi,

If you understood it---you would not be arguing about it---. The JH7B---is the baseline opportunity---readily available---the step up would be J16's---SU34's

 

[zebra7]

Hi,

If you understood it---you would not be arguing about it---. The JH7B---is the baseline opportunity---readily available---the step up would be J16's---SU34's

Readily available for Ground attack. Where did you find 1500 T/R AESA MMR on its nose, when its not even developed fully in China, and 12 BVR, making it a bomb truck, why not Boeing 747.

 

[MastanKhan]

Readily available for Ground attack. Where did you find 1500 T/R AESA MMR on its nose, when its not even developed fully in China, and 12 BVR, making it a bomb truck, why not Boeing 747.

Hi,

Because boeing 747 does not do bombing runs and it is also very expensive.

 

[Quwa]

Considering the Jordanians were the conduit for purchasing spares from Israel in the early 90's .. I see no change in them doing the same with used F-16s.

Is the DASH HMD/S (for JF-17) doable through this mechanism?