Pakistan To Build 12 New Nuclear Plants

[RAPTOR]

Sigatoka, i do understand what youre trying to say..BUT..
The oil industry was also given Massive Subsidies. Ethanol based energy industries will also be given subsidies. The farm sector is given huge Subsidies as is the defense sector. Bottom line is.....oil is a Finite resource...it will run out eventually. That is why the world is now looking for alternate resources resources.

*****censored*****

Oh and if oil goes up more....i do plan on getting the Hybrid Porsche SUV this fall . Right now i Drive a Hummer....and it aint cheap..:lips:

LOL, i forget what i said to him that Master web censored it. Sigatokak made an interesting argument though and it was an informative reply. I cant wait for Ethanol to be available freely so that the average uppermiddle class American can get some relief from these high gas prices.

P.S. i just found out i get a huge Tax Break if i own a Hybrid SUV :com:

 

[Munir]

Guys keep it cool. Every energy source has its advantages and disadvantages. Nuclear may sound cheap but just calculate the cost of building, enrichment of uranium and dumping costs of uranium. On the other hand the carbon fuels have their limitations. So... And building plants isn't very intresting subject to communicate. Let us move on.


p.s. ethnanol sounds nice but just calculate how much area is needed to fuel on Hummer... And we all know the big US cilinders... Maybe it will help if US cuts big SUV's or other big cars...

 

[RAPTOR]

Guys keep it cool. Every energy source has its advantages and disadvantages. Nuclear may sound cheap but just calculate the cost of building, enrichment of uranium and dumping costs of uranium. On the other hand the carbon fuels have their limitations. So... And building plants isn't very intresting subject to communicate. Let us move on.


p.s. ethnanol sounds nice but just calculate how much area is needed to fuel on Hummer... And we all know the big US cilinders... Maybe it will help if US cuts big SUV's or other big cars...

Pakistan is making huge efforts to follow the brazilian example and set up a massive Ethanol fuel industry. In addition to Nuclear Power, Ethanol fuel for cars will be a big plus for the economy. Following is an informative article for those who just dont seem to understand the issue....................

Sugar In The Tank
Brazil Paves Ethanol Future
By DAVID ADAMS


SAO PAULO, BRAZIL - A group of U.S. Senators visited Brazil in August to take a look at the country's ethanol industry. "It was a real eye-opener. I was just amazed what we learned," said Sen. Mel Martinez (R-Fla).

What most impressed the delegation was the choice Brazilians have at the pump. Since the 1973 oil embargo, Brazil has battled to achieve energy independence, replacing gasoline with ethanol, an alcohol distilled from sugarcane.

Today, Brazil is the world's largest producer of sugar and ethanol. Brazilian cars are also equipped with engines that can run on ethanol and gasoline, or any blend of the two. Known as "flex-fuel" cars, they have dazzled the market since their launch by Volkswagen in March 2003. Last month, they captured 66.7% of new car sales. All the major Brazilian car manufacturers now make them, including Ford Motor and General Motors.

In Brazil ethanol, or "alcool" as it is called, costs only $2 at the pump, compared to $4 for a gasoline-ethanol blend (Brazil no longer sells regular unblended gasoline). And while ethanol-powered cars consume 25% to 30% more fuel per mile than gasoline cars, the average motorist can save about $820 a year by switching to ethanol.

So why it hasn't been tried in the United States, where hybrid models and hydrogen fuel-cell technology receive the most attention? Surprisingly, flex-fuel technology has been around in the U.S. longer than Brazil. Most cars are already built to run on a 10% ethanol blend, known as E10, though few owners know it.

Some 4.5 million cars in the U.S., mostly SUVs, can handle up to 85% ethanol, or E85. But less than 150,000 were sold as alternative-fuel vehicles.

That may now be changing.

In September, Ford Motor announced it was stepping up its production of ethanol vehicles for the North American market. New models will include the F-150, Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis and Lincoln Town Car. "Ethanol is typically cheaper than regular gasoline, and we're going to do all that we can to support it," said President Bill Ford in a speech to employees in Dearborn, Mich. Ford has since begun a prime time TV advertising campaign for its ethanol vehicles, noting that it plans to produce 250,000 ethanol vehicles next year, way ahead of its plans to produce 250,000 hybrid cars by 2010. But major obstacles remain. Unlike Brazil, U.S. producers make ethanol from corn, which is a far less efficient source, yielding four times less energy than sugar. Ethanol prices in the U.S. are less competitive than in Brazil. U.S. producers are protected by a 54 cent per gallon tariff on Brazilian ethanol.

Another big problem: the lack of a distribution infrastructure to bring ethanol to the pumps. Oil companies like ExxonMobil (nyse: XOM - news - people ), BP (nyse: BP - news - people ), Chevron (nyse: CVX - news - people ) and others have so far shown only modest interest in ethanol, which is currently blended into about 30% of U.S. fuel. Most of that is E10. Only about 600 out of the country's 176,000 stations offer E85. The U.S. currently produces about 3.8 billion gallons of ethanol, slightly less than Brazil. But U.S. ethanol production is rising dramatically, thanks to generous corn subsidies, (at least $4.5 billion according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture) and tax incentives for fuel distributors. There are currently 93 ethanol plants in the United States, with another 24 under construction. Production is expected to rise to 5 billion gallons by the end of next year.

That's still a drop in the bucket compared to what the U.S. would need to meet a radical market shift from regular gasoline use, estimated at around 140 billion gallons a year.

Even so, last year the use of ethanol reduced the U.S. trade deficit by $5.1 billion by eliminating the need to import 143 million barrels of oil, according the Renewable Fuels Association, which represents ethanol producers.

In recent years, major energy companies weren't interested, leaving the field wide open to smaller entrepreneurs. Ethanol became the salvation for Midwest corn growers struggling to make ends meet with a saturated market and slumping prices. Farmer-owned plants continue to account for about three-quarters of ethanol production. But Archer Daniels Midland Company (nyse: ADM - news - people ), the agribusiness giant, recently began to flex its muscles, announcing plans to expand its ethanol capacity to 500 million gallons through the construction of two new corn-milling plants. "Ethanol demand is growing rapidly as the world's energy requirements are being met increasingly from renewable sources such as corn," said Edward A Harjehausen, a senior vice president at ADM.

So far, U.S. sugar growers have not branched out into ethanol. Under the highly controlled U.S. sugar program, prices for raw sugar are far more advantageous. But that could change as Washington pushes its global free trade agenda. Sugarcane growers in Florida recently commissioned an ethanol study. Oil industry executives testifying at Senate hearings recently urged that the solution for U.S. energy needs lies in better "access" to new exploration and streamlining refinery permits. To be sure, experts agree that gasoline still has a major role in U.S. energy supply. But with demand and future prices of fossil fuels uncertain, the day of renewable energy may have arrived.

 

[sigatoka]

Then you really need to get glasses.!!

By your forced arguments and efforts to convince us that oil will still be "cheap" at $100 a barrel.

According to you.....the rest of the world is dumb for not trying to be totally dependent on oil and swiching to Hybrid cars and turning to cleaner sources of energy.

When I said cheap I meant that Oil will still be the cheapest energy source for Vehciles and Aircraft even at $100. Nothing comes close.

Ethanol is not a cleaner source of energy. Maybe you didnt ask the thousands of hectares of trees in the Amazonian forests which were cleared to grow sugarcane for Ethanol use. And Ethanol doesnt have significantly lower emissions, dont conflate the issues of reducing energy dependence on Oil with Environmentalism.

 

[Bull]

Pakistan is making huge efforts to follow the brazilian example and set up a massive Ethanol fuel industry. In addition to Nuclear Power, Ethanol fuel for cars will be a big plus for the economy. Following is an informative article for those who just dont seem to understand the issue....................

The article doesnt say so!!!
Do u have any material with u ,which says so?

 

[Bull]

When I said cheap I meant that Oil will still be the cheapest energy source for Vehciles and Aircraft even at $100. Nothing comes close.

Ethanol is not a cleaner source of energy. Maybe you didnt ask the thousands of hectares of trees in the Amazonian forests which were cleared to grow sugarcane for Ethanol use. And Ethanol doesnt have significantly lower emissions, dont conflate the issues of reducing energy dependence on Oil with Environmentalism.

Dont bother, its deaf ears all around!!!

 

[sigatoka]

BUT..
The oil industry was also given Massive Subsidies. Ethanol based energy industries will also be given subsidies. The farm sector is given huge Subsidies Bottom line is.....oil is a Finite resource...it will run out eventually.

i do plan on getting the Hybrid Porsche SUV this fall . Right now i Drive a Hummer....and it aint cheap..:lips:

You must be Rich to be able to afford a Porsche. I disagree with all the subsidies given to Oil, Ethanol and Farming Sector. But, if all subsidies were to be withdrawn, Oil would still be used while Ethanol would not. In most countries around the world, Oil is not subsidized and it is still the most competitive fuel for vehicles.

Oil is a finite resource, but there is an economically efficient rate to extract it. Just because its finite doesnt mean we shouldnt use it. Why dont we hear the same arguments about timber and copper and even Uranium? These are also all finite.

Secondly, Hybrids use more energy to make because they are complex machines. Even the Toyota Prius would take 3 years of use to break even environmentally. I would believe the same would apply for your Hybrid Porcshe if you do get it.

 

[sigatoka]

And we all know the big US cilinders... Maybe it will help if US cuts big SUV's or other big cars...

They dont need to becasuse again i say, Oil is cheap and useful. Thats why when people grow rich (as you would know, U.S. has the highest per capita income in the world) they choose to drive 6-8cylinder vehicles.

Pakistani's (and indians) dont drive big vehicles because they cant afford to, Europeans dont because their governments tax Oil at an extremely high rate which makes it too expensive (they tax high to pay for cushy social programs)

 

[RAPTOR]

When I said cheap I meant that Oil will still be the cheapest energy source for Vehciles and Aircraft even at $100. Nothing comes close.

Ethanol is not a cleaner source of energy. Maybe you didnt ask the thousands of hectares of trees in the Amazonian forests which were cleared to grow sugarcane for Ethanol use. And Ethanol doesnt have significantly lower emissions, dont conflate the issues of reducing energy dependence on Oil with Environmentalism.

You say oil will still be cheap at $100 ? Well, you might think so but i plan on getting a Hybrid....which would run on an oil /Electric combo and is not going to kill my wallet at the gas pump.

I do however agree with you on the clearing of the Amazonian rain forests to make room for sugarcane plantations.....being a conservationalist it pains to see the earths lungs being destroyed so ruthlessly. Despite that...Braizialn economy is doin pretty well as it doesnt have to depend on erratic oil prices . Can you prove Ethanol is not a significantly cleaner source of energy? Can you prove it doesnt have a much lower emissions rate?

 

[RAPTOR]

They dont need to becasuse again i say, Oil is cheap and useful. Thats why when people grow rich (as you would know, U.S. has the highest per capita income in the world) they choose to drive 6-8cylinder vehicles.

Pakistani's (and indians) dont drive big vehicles because they cant afford to, Europeans dont because their governments tax Oil at an extremely high rate which makes it too expensive (they tax high to pay for cushy social programs)

Ive seen more Range Rovers, Landcruisers, Mitsubishi Pajeros,Nissan Patrols running around in Lahore and rural Pakistan in general than ive seen anywhere else...

In D.C i can fill up a Hummer or a RangeRover at $60. In London it would cost me $120 to do the same thing, thats how high Gas Prices are in Europe.

 

[sigatoka]

You say oil will still be cheap at $100 ? Well, you might think so but i plan on getting a Hybrid....

I do however agree with you on the clearing of the Amazonian rain forests to make room for sugarcane plantations.....Despite that...Braizialn economy is doin pretty well as it doesnt have to depend on erratic oil prices . Can you prove Ethanol is not a significantly cleaner source of energy? Can you prove it doesnt have a much lower emissions rate?

Why dont you get a 4 cyclinder Toyota Camry? It can seat 5 adults and has very good fuel economy instead of spending much more to get a hybrid which gives only slightly better fuel economy. In fact, you could get a Toyota Camry and Donate the difference between the cost of Camry and Hybrid to an Environmental Organisation.

The Brazilian economy is doing well inspite of the Subsidies given to Ethanol industry. Let me clear a few things up though, Brazils case in the world is unique because it can produce Ethanol more cheaply than any other nation in the world from Sugarcane. Therefore if Ethanol takes off globally it would crush the worldwide competition and instead of U.S. being dependant on Middle East Oil, it would become Dependant on Brazilian alchohol.

I could prove it, but I am lazy and I should be doing my assignments. Im not saying it has more emissions, only that it doesnt have much lower emissions than normal petrol does and when you factor in the forests cut down for growing sugarcane, it comes out worse on the Environmental score card.

P.s. I have never been to India.

 

[sigatoka]

Ive seen more Range Rovers, Landcruisers, Mitsubishi Pajeros,Nissan Patrols running around in Lahore and rural Pakistan in general than ive seen anywhere else...

In D.C i can fill up a Hummer or a RangeRover at $60. In London it would cost me $120 to do the same thing, thats how high Gas Prices are in Europe.

I hope you are not seriously proposing that Pakistan has more SUV's than U.S. does?

There is a natural bias in Pakistan for people who are wealthy to get SUV's because the roads are so poor. This is economically inefficient, because if the government improved roads this would not be necessary.

 

[RAPTOR]

The Brazilian economy is doing well inspite of the Subsidies given to Ethanol industry. Let me clear a few things up though, Brazils case in the world is unique because it can produce Ethanol more cheaply than any other nation in the world from Sugarcane. Therefore if Ethanol takes off globally it would crush the worldwide competition and instead of U.S. being dependant on Middle East Oil, it would become Dependant on Brazilian alchohol.

I could prove it, but I am lazy and I should be doing my assignments. Im not saying it has more emissions, only that it doesnt have much lower emissions than normal petrol does and when you factor in the forests cut down for growing sugarcane, it comes out worse on the Environmental score card.
.

Sigatoka, i am really disapointed by your limited intelligence. Here i thought we were engaging in an educated discussion. Ethanol is bio-degradable.......................:lips:
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ethanol[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif] is a popular and environmentally friendly fuel which when used as a transportation product reduces the need for foreign oil and fossil fuel. Over two million miles have already been driven on an ethanol blend of 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline (E10). E85 is the term used for motor fuel blends up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. E85 is considered an alternative fuel under federal and state laws.

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ford, GM, Chrysler, Mazda, Isuzu and Mercedes offer approximately 20 different models of cars and trucks capable of using any mix of gas and ethanol -up to 85% ethanol- without modification. These vehicles are available from most new car dealers for no additional cost. Nearly three million of these Dual Fuel or Flexible Fuel Vehicles (FFVs) are presently on the road. Approximately 240 US gas stations now offer E85 and more are added each month. For national locations see www.e85fuel.com[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]E85 has the highest oxygen content of any fuel currently available. The Argonne National lab has concluded use of corn-derived ethanol can reduce lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions by 14-19 percent when compared to gasoline. E85 is a higher performance fuel with an octane rating of 105-110. E85 users will notice a mileage and range reduction of 10%-30% because a gallon of ethanol contains only 70% as much energy as a gallon of gasoline. However, since a vehicle will perform better on ethanol than on gasoline, vehicles can be ethanol-optimized (capable of running only on ethanol) to achieve superior gas mileage as compared with gasoline.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Ethanol is nontoxic, renewable and biodegradable, and can be made from almost any agricultural feedstock from which starch is derived, such as sugarcane, sorghum, wheat, cheese byproducts and wood waste, municipal solid waste, animal manure and sewage sludge. New Mexico has one ethanol production facility in Portales that produces 15 million gallons of ethanol per year from Milo (sorghum). According to the American Bioenergy Association, biomass used to produce ethanol could reduce our oil imports upwards of 50%!

Although the vast majority of ethanol is currently produced from corn or corn byproducts, ethanol can be made quite economically from cellulosic sources as well. Thus ethanol could be produced from forest thinnings that must be removed from the forests of the Southwest in order to prevent catastrophic fires. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]When combusted, ethanol is carbon neutral when made except for the use of fossil fuels used during its production. That is, the carbon released when ethanol is combusted is recaptured when new plants are grown to reproduce more ethanol. Combustion of fossil fuels, on the other hand, circumvents the natural carbon cycle by releasing carbon that has been locked away by nature without providing a way to reabsorb the newly released carbon. Thus, the use of carbon-neutral ethanol helps slow down global warming.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Comparison of Energy Yield from One Btu of Fossil Energy Used[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Fuel[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*Energy Yield [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Net Energy (loss) or gain[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Gasoline[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]0.74[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](26 percent)[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Diesel[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]0.83[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](17 percent)[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ethanol[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1.34 [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]34 percent (corn ethanol)[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Biodiesel[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]3.20[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]220 percent[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]* Yield in liquid fuel BTUs per Btu of fossil fuel energy dedicated
Source: USDA, Economic Research Service Report number 721[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]According to studies by Argonne National Laboratory, Use of cellulosic-produced E85 would achieve a 68-102% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions, a 70% reduction in petroleum use and a 70-79% reduction in fossil energy use.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ethanol Emissions as Compared with Gasoline Emissions
(from EPA Fact Sheet EPA420-F-00-035)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Emission[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]E10[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]E85[/FONT]​

​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Carbon Monoxide (CO)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]25-30% reduction[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]40% reduction[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Carbon Dioxide (CO2)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10% reduction[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]14% -102% reduction[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Nitrogen Oxides[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]5% reduction[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]10% reduction[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]7% reduction[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]30% or more reduction[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sulfur Dioxide (SO2)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some reduction[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Up to 80% reduction[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Particulates[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some reduction[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]20% reduction[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aldehydes[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]30-50% increase but negligible due to catalytic converter[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Insufficient data[/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Aromatics (Benzene and Butadiene)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some reduction[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]More than 50% reduction[/FONT]​

 

[RAPTOR]

They dont need to becasuse again i say, Oil is cheap and useful. Thats why when people grow rich (as you would know, U.S. has the highest per capita income in the world) they choose to drive 6-8cylinder vehicles.

Pakistani's (and indians) dont drive big vehicles because they cant afford to, Europeans dont because their governments tax Oil at an extremely high rate which makes it too expensive (they tax high to pay for cushy social programs)

We are going off topic here, i dont know if that was your goal or not......but lets discuss it in the correct thread i have just posted on regarding Ethanol.

 

[sigatoka]

Sigatoka, i am really disapointed by your limited intelligence.

Ah well, I am stupid? Remind me to get a brain transplant the next time there is a pile up on the motorway.