A.Rahman said:
Rahman,
Here's a better link.
Check it out.
http://www.wise-uranium.org/umaps.html?set=annu
Pakistan To Build 12 New Nuclear Plants
- Thread starter Kaiser
- Start date
Rahman,
Here's a better link.
Check it out.
http://www.wise-uranium.org/umaps.html?set=annu
RAPTOR said:
You are wrong Raptor because even when taking the pollution reduction benefits of Nuclear power plants INTO ACCOUNT they are still not competitive and have to be subsidized by government. How can I say this with confidence? Well because in Europe which has ratified the Kyoto protocal and set up Carbon trading, Nuclear powerplants can sell the right to pollution, even when they do they are still not competitive. Therefore governments are forced to tax other more profitable activities to subsidize nuclear power.
sigatoka said:
I dont know how educated you are on this subject..
Are you saying that France , Sweden, Finland,Norway,Belgium and other countries where Nuclear Power acounts for 80% of the energy requirements are just plain stupid? Or that coal based power plants are cleaner? or that oil based generators expel less carbon di oxide into the atmosphere?
The fact is that Nuclear power generation is today much safer and cleaner thanks to new generation reactors and spent fuel disposal sites. If the world could generate energy through cold fusion, reverse thermogenics, solar and wind power alone.....im sure it would...But oil is being consumed at 6 times the rate it was being used in 2000 and the price of oil is touching $74 a barel.
Oil and gas is a FINITE resource.... and Nuclear energy is making a comeback whether you like it or not. But that doesnt mean that it is totally safe...we need to make sure accidents like chernobyl never happen again . Also the indian nuclear reactors are very old and extremely dangerous since their safety standards are horrible. I wouldnt be surprised if there was a major Nuclear accident killing off millions of indians. The only good thing is that it wouldnt matter if millions of indians die because there are millions more.....so Indiaa should close down all its old soviet reactors , sign the NPT and let the US build and operate Nuclear Reactors in india and sell india energy only while keeping the reactors solely under American Ownership.
RAPTOR said:
Ouch, did i touch a raw nerve? Ok I will try to do a thourough explaination. European countries on average don't have a lot of energy, in fact its close to zero percent of their total energy consumption. This means they import all of their energy.
They might rationally decide to source 5% of their energy from Nuclear even if more expensive than imported energy because it reduces risk of massive supply disruption to key areas.
Secondly Oil and Gas and Coal expel more CO2 but this qty of expelling is economically efficient because even when property rights are attached to this pollution as is the case under Kyoto and when a market is created to allow trading in this right, Nuclear power is still not competitive. (Disagree? mmm is anyone else doing an economics degree and could they but in?)
Thirdly when a nation decides to produce 80% of energy requirments by nuclear they need a collective brain surgery. Nuclear power plants are efficeitn only in relation to base load and I dont think that 80% of energy requirments forms the base load.
France uses and had used its nuclear powerplants to leverage its nuclear weapons program and hence is not as stupid as other countries which dont have nuclear weapons.
Nuclear power plants are agree is much cleaner and safer but who gives two hoots unless it is actually financially viable without massive subsidies?
Woo hoo price of oil is $74 a barrel. Hey Raptor why dont you stop using any form of Oil products, yes dont travel by car, plane or use plasitics. Why?? Because Oil is sooo expensive.
If anything, the fact that we are using more Oil than ever @ $74 shows we value the amount of Oil per litre we use more than $74. The fact that its price is high proves nothing.
Oil and Gas is a finite resoure? Boo hoo........So? what do you propose? we stop using it because its finite? I have a better Idea, why dont u build a Nuclear powerplant and I will continue to use Oil.
How should Pakistan use Nuclear power then? Well build enough plants to allow development of nuclear weapons as necessary. Then maybe build one plant every five years.
sigatoka said:
You sound like youre from india
Good response Sigatoka. I understand your arguments even though you sound a little fustrated and defensive. I drive an SUV and a sedan and i know how fustrating it gets to fill up a tank for $70 compared to just $20 or 30 just a few years ago. Oil prices are rising.....and they will rise in the coming years. In that scenario.....doesnt it make more sense to go towards Nuclear energy? even if it is on massive subsidies as you claim? What if tommorow the oil supply is cut off? the whole country comes to a halt? Doesnt it make more sense for Nuclear,Solar,Hydro power to compliment the National Grid?
p.s --I'd buy a Hybrid , but HUMMER doesnt make those yet
RAPTOR said:You sound like youre from india
I drive an SUV and a sedan. Oil prices are rising.....and they will rise in the coming years. In that scenario.....doesnt it make more sense to go towards Nuclear energy? even if it is on massive subsidies as you claim? What if tommorow the oil supply is cut off? the whole country comes to a halt? Doesnt it make more sense for Nuclear,Solar,Hydro power to compliment the National Grid?
p.s --I'd buy a Hybrid , but HUMMER doesnt make those yet
I am not, my Great-Grand Parents were from that region. You dont sound like an Indian owning two vehicles AND an SUV. I'd bet $5 you are from the Gas Guzzling U.S.
It makes sense to go Nuclear when its cost effective. It will be cost effective in the future (approx 15-100 years depending on relevant variables).
It would be idiotic to go on it with massive subsidies, it would be economically inefficient. Its like saying, there might be a drought ten years from now, therefore I will stop bathing now because there wont be water ten years from now.
Oil Supply is Cut off? There are many Oil Suppliers and they need to supply as Much as we need to consume. What will they eat if they dont export Oil?
Secondly if there is a threat of supply cut; a strategic reserve could be created which would hold 3 months supply of energy. And I did say around 10% of energy needs could b met by nuclear as insurance.
I wouldnt buy a Hybrid because I took a paper and pen and calculated the fuel savings against the higher purchase price and it didnt simply stack up.
sigatoka said:
So then what country are you from? what is your ethnicity?
You can live without oil, but you cannot live without water...so that argument of yours sounded pretty dumb.What if theres no oil in 10 years? what are you going to do then? tie an indian to a rickshaw and grab a whip? Fuel cell technologies are making progress, New technologies are sprouting up. Brazil is now a completly oil free economy, they run their cars on Ethanol. More Electric Hybrid cars are being sold in China than anywhere else.
You then go and say we should create a strategic reserve for 3 months supply. Well what the hell are u gonna do after that?
And why did you use a pen and a paper to calculate the costs of a Hybrid car? Ever hear of a calculator? How old are u anyway?
Oh and by the way....i Love my SUV and im going to keep buying newer ones even if oil reaches $100 a barrel....So Take that curry boy :crazy2:
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sigatoka said:
Sigotoka,if u dont mind wud pls share with us any data you have regarding the cost of nuclear production.
We cant stop using oil now,but can definitly try to diversify our energy sources,and thast what most of the countries are trying to use.Moreover it can be used to powewr factories that other ways will use coal or gas.And let the cars and planes run on oil.
Prashant said:
I would but I don't have the time with two assignments. There is no need to find specific data to know Nuclear energy generation is uncompetitive. This is because Rational Profit Maximising Firms do not build Nuclear Reactors without Massive Subsidies. Therefore the Cost of Nuclear power Generation can simply be calculated by Adding the Value of the Subsidy to that of Generating Power from Conventional Sources such as Oil, Gas Powered Plants which is present without subsidies.
sigatoka said:
Hey, guess what sigatokdata, the rest of the world doesnt really share your common economic subsidies sense..
Finns in favour of building sixth nuclear reactor: poll
HELSINKI, April 23 (AFP) Apr 23, 2006
Twenty years after the Chernobyl nuclear disaster in Ukraine, a majority of Finns are in favour of building a sixth nuclear reactor in their country, a poll published on Sunday showed.
Some 26 percent said they supported the idea while 36 percent said they supported it to some degree, the Gallup poll in leading daily Helsingin Sanomat said.
Meanwhile, 16 percent were totally opposed to the idea and 17 percent were against it to some degree, according to the survey of 1,000 people conducted April 10-20.
Some four percent were undecided.
Finland is currently in the process of building its fifth nuclear reactor.
The 1,600-megawatt pressurised water reactor at the Olkiluoto plant, near Pori in southwestern Finland, is expected to become operational in 2009.
It will be the world's first third-generation reactor.
Going against prevailing attitudes in many European countries at the time, the Finnish parliament approved the construction of the fifth reactor in 2002 on the basis that it would help reduce pollution and ensure energy independence in the Nordic country.
Finland has few natural energy resources of its own, possessing neither oil, gas or coal deposits and having little hydroelectric capacity. As a result, it currently imports almost 70 percent of the electricity it needs.
Pak could seek 4-6 additional nuke power plants from China New Delhi, Apr 23: After ordering two nuclear power plants from China, Pakistan could seek four to six additional ones at a cost of about USD 6.5 billion, a media report has said.
Quoting informed sources, Pakistani daily 'The Dawn' said President Pervez Musharraf, during his proposed visit to Beijing in June, "would seek four to six more nuclear power plants, costing about 6.5 billion, from China in addition to the two".
Islamabad has already placed orders with China for two nuclear plants at a cost of 1.2 billion dollars. Together, these plants would help Pakistan meet its pressing need of 8,800 megawatts of electricity by 2030, it said.
"Pakistan has been assured that its energy needs will be met by China to a reasonable extent and the matter is expected to be finalised during President Pervez Musharraf's visit to Beijing in June," the daily said.
It said Musharraf "would brief the Chinese leadership about the US attitude of not treating Pakistan on par with India where civilian use of nuclear technology was concerned".
The US, the report said, was also "indirectly exerting pressure" on China through the nuclear suppliers group not to consider supplying more than two nuclear plants to Pakistan "because of the alleged involvement of some senior level Pakistani scientists".
It quoted the sources as saying that China had also agreed to supply "latest military technology" to help improve value addition, accuracy and range of Pakistan's weaponry.
"A number of visits were currently being finalised by the two governments to exchange military delegations to assess Pakistan's urgent military requirement", it said.
Bureau Report
Quoting informed sources, Pakistani daily 'The Dawn' said President Pervez Musharraf, during his proposed visit to Beijing in June, "would seek four to six more nuclear power plants, costing about 6.5 billion, from China in addition to the two".
Islamabad has already placed orders with China for two nuclear plants at a cost of 1.2 billion dollars. Together, these plants would help Pakistan meet its pressing need of 8,800 megawatts of electricity by 2030, it said.
"Pakistan has been assured that its energy needs will be met by China to a reasonable extent and the matter is expected to be finalised during President Pervez Musharraf's visit to Beijing in June," the daily said.
It said Musharraf "would brief the Chinese leadership about the US attitude of not treating Pakistan on par with India where civilian use of nuclear technology was concerned".
The US, the report said, was also "indirectly exerting pressure" on China through the nuclear suppliers group not to consider supplying more than two nuclear plants to Pakistan "because of the alleged involvement of some senior level Pakistani scientists".
It quoted the sources as saying that China had also agreed to supply "latest military technology" to help improve value addition, accuracy and range of Pakistan's weaponry.
"A number of visits were currently being finalised by the two governments to exchange military delegations to assess Pakistan's urgent military requirement", it said.
Bureau Report
RAPTOR said:
I will power my vehicle with the most efficient energy source available at the time, which is what is economically sensible to do anyway. When a drought comes we reduce consumption of water because as the supply of water goes down the price of it goes up and people respond to price signals.
The same would happen with Oil and Gas, as the supply goes down, the Price would go up and i would less of it.
Secondly I have heard the ruler of Turkmenistan is building an ice palace in his relatively desert nation. Some nations such as Finland are building Nuclear Power plants. The fact that something is happening doesnt make it smart. Ice palace sounds like a stupid idea and is. Nuclear Powerplants when built with subsidies might not sound stupid but is just as stupid.
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