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Pakistan: The ‘birth’ of a problem

Indians after more than 60 years have not been able to create a coherent society, whole society is divided on the basis of religion, caste etc, even the majority Hindu is divided among upper and lower classes
the existence of a non coherent society in India is just coz of one reason PAKISTAN, wow man hats off for u stupid ppl who believe in this...
Indian Muslims r Indians according to Blueoval, but still the blame of their backwardness & lack of education, lack of tolerance among different factions is coz of creation of Pakistan
and btw Blueoval79 jus answer me is it right to blame existence of a non coherent society & backwardness of Indian Muslims on PAKISTAN??
have some sense
 
Indians after more than 60 years have not been able to create a coherent society, whole society is divided on the basis of religion, caste etc, even the majority Hindu is divided among upper and lower classes

and your analogy about India comes from few pages from net on India?
what?
wasn't pakistan supposed to be islamic state? then why is the shia sunni thing still there? why did parachinar happen?....
now stop generalizing things.. and your BS.

the existence of a non coherent society in India is just coz of one reason PAKISTAN, wow man hats off for u stupid ppl who believe in this...
Indian Muslims r Indians according to Blueoval, but still the blame of their backwardness & lack of education, lack of tolerance among different factions is coz of creation of Pakistan
and btw Blueoval79 jus answer me is it right to blame existence of a non coherent society & backwardness of Indian Muslims on PAKISTAN??
have some sense
:blah:
 
and your analogy about India comes from few pages from net on India?
what?
wasn't pakistan supposed to be islamic state? then why is the shia sunni thing still there? why did parachinar happen?....
now stop generalizing things.. and your BS.


:blah:

the topic going on here is that problems of Indian Muslims are because of creation of PAKISTAN, its a fact tht these elements exist every where but sayin tht creation of Pakistan is a reason behind probs of Indian Muslims is a stupid comment. we don blame the tussle b/w differnt factions on others, ...
now Indians havent been able to adjust among themselves, and guess who is to be blamed for this, ur right PAKISTAN WOW:hitwall:
 
The entire premise of the author's article is absurd.

Since India claims to be a secular state, the issues around the lack of integration, acceptance or whatever ills the author claims bedevil the various religious communities in India, are the sole problem and responsibility of Indians and nation of India.

If Hindus don't trust Indian Muslims because of Pakistan, the problem lies with Indian Hindus who harbor that prejudice. Pakistan is merely, as usual, made a conveneient scapegoat in this article to try and deflect attention away from the people of India, who should instead be engaging in introspection to discover why prejudice, discrimination and distrust between various communities exists in India.

For all the talk of a state based on 'equality and freedom and fighting the godless communists', the US, during a large part of the Cold War and before, had extremely racist and segregationist policies and attitudes amongst its citizenry and State. Those attitudes and polices can't be blamed on the Soviets, just like India's communal ills cannot be blamed on Pakistan.

Only an acceptance and continued discourse about those ills within society can offer a means of minimizing them. Scapegoating external enemies is just a way of deceiving yourself.
 
I have no doubt that Indian Muslims face discrimination within India, at least in the private sector.

But as a number of posters have pointed out, a big part of the blame also lies with Muslim community leaders. The Jews were persecuted in Europe for centuries and, as a result, developed strong community institutions fostering education and commercial success. Muslims religious leaders, on the other hand, have little to offer other than rote learning of the Quran and dogmatic fatwas about petty irrelevancies like dress codes.

Once again, Muslim religious leaders fail their communities.
In India.
In Pakistan.
Everywhere.
 
This article is worth a read. Though I don't like the title....but it is worth sharing...

Pakistan: The ?birth? of problem

The creation of Pakistan was one of the bloodiest incidents of modern history. As a country struggling to free itself from the clutches of imperialist Britain, India was not ready for such bloodshed and division, especially in the name of religion. But, because of Jinnah’s Muslim League and to an extent even Congress, Indians had to face the worst nightmare.

Sixty-three years on, the wound is still fresh and the chasms clear. In the hype and hoopla about the roles of Jinnah and Nehru in partition; we have missed the worst sufferers of the incident, the Indian Muslims.

The plight of Muslims who were opposed to partition could be summed up in the last words of Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan that he conveyed to Mahatma Gandhi, “You have thrown us to the wolves.”

But the inevitable happened and thus began the plight of Indian Muslims- those who migrated and those who stayed on in India.

Muhajir

The Muslims of India migrated to Pakistan in the hope of a better future. They thought of living with their ‘own’ people in their ‘own’ land. But it was nothing more than a mere utopia. The bubble burst and the problem of being a ‘Muhajir’ cropped up soon enough.

The sacred word ‘Muhajir’ that was once used for none other than Prophet Muhammad himself, turned derogatory for the migrated Indian Muslims. Far from welcoming them, the natives of Pakistan treated them as second class citizens; as burdens on their society.

This led to the rise of Muhajir Quami Movement (MQM) against the oppressive Pakistan governments. After more than three decades of struggle, though the situation is now better for migrants, still the flares refuse to die down.

Poor economic condition of Indian Muslims

It is no hidden fact that the economic condition of Muslims in India is far from ideal. There are a number of theories that give various reasons for this, like government apathy, lack of education and ignorance, but there is one reason that most miss out, the migration of upper class and rich Muslims to Pakistan.

Though it may sound like a far fetched theory, but one cannot deny that most of the people who migrated to Pakistan were rich landlords. As they say, the cream of Muslims moved away from the country, leaving behind poor Muslims. This disturbed the balance of the society.

The situation further compounded by the government apathy towards Muslims and lack of dedicated plans towards the most downtrodden strata of society.

Since, the number of rich people within the society shrunk, there was not much hope for Indian Muslims apart from depending on government programs for development.

This theory can be justified by sighting the example of the Sikh community. They are among the most progressive in India and the main reason for it is their entrepreneurship and the community help they received, especially as refugees at the time of migration.

The problem of distrust

The worst side effect of the creation of Pakistan is the prevalent distrust among the common people of India on Muslims. Even after 63 years of partition, Indian Muslims are still facing the tag of being ‘Pakistan friendly’.

Immediately after the partition, it had become a problem of sorts for unemployed Muslims to find a job under a Hindu employer, as they were not trusted. This continued for a long time, but eventually things improved.

Though, such problem are non-existent today, the inherent distrust still lingers on. The taunt of having fifth column feelings is faced by almost all Muslims at some point or the other. The worst thing is that not only the illiterate, but even educated people behave in the same manner.

People have just failed to understand that Muslims, who stayed back in India, did not leave the place because they considered it their motherland. It is their love for this country that prompted them to remain here.

Terrorism

The biggest menace of modern India, terrorism is clearly a Pakistan promoted monster. Be it the traditional battleground of Kashmir or the rise of neo-terrorism among the dissatisfied Muslim youth, Pakistan has played a major role.

After Partition, the biggest ploy for Pakistan to destabilise India was terrorism, first in the name of Kashmir’s autonomy and later about India’s perceived apathy towards Muslims. Most of all to avenge the creation of Bangladesh. In these unholy intentions of Pakistan, the Muslims of India became the unsuspecting victims.

Indian Muslims faced the double edged sword, with Pakistan exploiting them for their malicious intentions and Indians suspecting them for their soft corner for Pakistan. This alienated majority of the Muslims from the mainstream.

This compounded the problem further. Then the rise of religious parties like BJP and lack of leadership within the community further led to the disillusionment of Muslims from the system. Incidents like Babri demolition and post Godhra riots further added fuel to the fire and strained relations to breaking point.

Here, if we conclude that the formation of Pakistan is essentially the reason for most, if not all, the problems faced by Indian Muslims, it will not be an exaggeration.

It has been long since the country was partitioned. A whole new generation of Muslims has come which had no role in the partition and which is as Indian as any Hindu or Sikh or Christian would be. They want to contribute in the progress of country. The only thing that they need is an unbiased approach in dealing with them. We need to understand that Muslims are an integral part of India and they are not lacking in patriotism.

The only question here is, are we ready for a paradigm shift? India needs to answer that!


An Indian weekly magazine has released a series of videotaped confessions of Hindu activists of hacking hundreds of Muslims to death in the southern state of Gujarat and detailing blatant state collusion over the 2002 massacre, reported the Washington Post on Friday, October 26.
"It is a very disturbing story," said Tarun Tejpal, the editor of the weekly Tehelka, which released the confessions.
"It is a story that makes me worry about the kind of India we are living in."
The videos showed Hindu activists and politicians bragging about hacking Muslims to death and burning their bodies.
Some activists confessed that they doused petrified Muslims in kerosene and burned them alive.
Another activist said that he slit open the stomach of a pregnant Muslim woman.
"There is a complete absence of remorse in these confessions," said Tejpal.
"The perpetrators of the violence have themselves confessed to the crime."
The videos are the result of a six-month investigation by a by a Tehelka investigative reporter, who posed as a research scholar and spoke to the activists.
Up to 2,500 people, mostly Muslims, were hacked and burnt to death by Hindu extremists in Gujarat in 2002.
The carnage took place after 59 Hindu pilgrims were died on train in a fire some blamed on Muslims.
India's Supreme Court has accused the Hindu nationalist government in Gujarat of being complicit in the killings.
Gujarat carnage was the worst religious violence India had seen in years.
India is home to the world's largest Muslim population after Indonesia and Pakistan.
Hindus account for more than 80 percent of the country's 1.1 billion population while Muslims make up about 13 percent.
State Collusion
The video also showed an Indian Hindu politician confessing that Gujarat's chief minister Narendra Modi had given the green light for the Hindu extremists to go ahead with their rampage.
"He (Modi) had given us three days to do whatever we could," admitted Haresh Bhatt, a leader of Bajrang Dal, a hardline Hindu group affiliated to the nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party.
"He said he would not give us time after that, he said this openly," he was quoted as saying by Reuters.
Modi, who is seeking a reelection in December state elections, earlier claimed that the massacre was a spontaneous reaction to the train fire.
Arvind Pandya, a Gujarat government counsel at a riot inquiry panel, said Modi's "blood was boiling" when he first heard of the train fire.
"His reaction was like this, 'if he were not a minister he would have burst bombs ... detonated a few bombs in Juhapura'," Pandya said, referring to a Muslim suburb in Gujarat's main city Ahmedabad.
Indian Muslims said the videos were no surprise.
"None of these confessions are new to us. We have experienced all this firsthand," said Shakeel Ahmed, a legal activist in Gujarat and a member of the Association for the Protection of Civil Rights.
He, however, said that the videotaped confessions mount pressures on the state government to act against the perpetrators.
"The perpetrators themselves are admitting to the heinous crimes," he said.
"Whether it will bring justice depends on political will. Many of the accused are our rulers today. Who will investigate them?"
Right groups complain that little has been done to catch the culprits.
They insist that there was no trace of accountability on government officials who reportedly engineered the massacre.
Only about a dozen people have been convicted from 3,200 cases filed.


Gujarat state head 'supported Muslim massacre'
(AFP) – Oct 25, 2007
NEW DELHI (AFP) — A private television news network broadcast footage of men accused of taking part in deadly Gujarat riots in 2002 apparently admitting that the Hindu-ruled local government supported violence against Muslims.
The Headlines Today network Thursday showed secretly recorded interviews by a news magazine with several people it identified as right-wing Hindus.
The video interviews show several men reportedly boasting about their role in the widespread killings and referring to the involvement of police and tacit support of politicians.
At least 2,000 people, mostly Muslims, were killed after a Muslim mob was accused of torching a train, burning 59 Hindus alive.
The news investigation was carried out by magazine Tehelka (Hindi for sensation), which has previously done several hard-hitting secret investigations.
"In Tehelka's ground-breaking investigation, for the first time hear the truth of the genocidal killings from the men who actually did it," Tehelka said on its website.
The footage shows a man reportedly admitting to slitting a pregnant woman's stomach and bringing out the foetus with a sword -- an incident that has been widely reported in the media.
The news network did not get a later comment from the men whose interviews were secretly taped.
The western Gujarat state is ruled by India's main opposition Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) and is headed by hawkish Hindu leader Narendra Modi.
Several of those shown on television were said to be Hindu militants from groups affiliated to the BJP.
Rights groups have accused Modi, who faces polls in December, of encouraging the violence.
Last week, Modi walked out of a television interview when persistently quizzed over his role in the riots.
The BJP said it expected "some dirty things" from the ruling Congress party ahead of the elections.
So far, more than a dozen people have been convicted over the bloodshed.
An enquiry by the state-run railways later ruled the fire on the train which sparked the riots was an accident.



@emo-girl
Indians after more than 60 years have not been able to create a coherent society, whole society is divided on the basis of religion, caste etc, even the majority Hindu is divided among upper and lower classes


you are right india fail to develop coherent society and the above articles show the reason of this failure.



@blueoval
my friend, problems are present in every country including US, EU and india or pakistan are no exception. these kind of articles do no good except starting a useless conversation and hatered among the members of this forum. they should be avoided.

regrads

sincerely
 
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Would the authors argument be akin to this:

I am a fat, lazy husband with a gorgeous wife.

One day my neighbor decides to become a health nut - he starts lifting weights, running, eating healthy, and over the next few months turns into this muscular, handsome tanned guy.

I think my wife 'checking him out' occasionally, so I start quarreling with her, accusing her, abusing the guy and badmouthing him all the time.

Our marriage falls apart - its all my neighbors fault! :D
 
@AgNoStIc MuSliM

Thanks for correcting some facts. I had taken this 230 Million from a radio discussion. I think figures of Wikipedia would be more reliable.

Its true that hatred for Muslim and denial of rights by dominating Hindu majority became reason for Muslim Minority to demand Pakistan for the sake of security. But whatever the reason has been, India is now living with a cancer inside. I see different news of Pakistani flag hosted in Indian villages or Indian Muslims chanting Pakistan Zindabad after 2020 worldCup and these are the directives how Muslim population in India feels like.

As a Pakistani, we have many bonds with this homeland. We were born here, Our forefathers sacrificed and struggled a lot for its independence and its a Muslim State plus we have sense of belonging to the Pakistani society. Now consider this for India.

Indian Muslims who are born there are Indian by birth, but their forefathers have sacrificed and struggled for the country which is Pakistan. Indian Muslims are not able to have sense of belonging with the Indian Hindu dominant society which keeps reminding them that "Hindustan me rehna hai to Wandematram kehna hoga" or "Every Muslim should leave India, India is for Hindus and go to your Pakistan" etc. (Although such extremists are minority, but when Majority stays silent, they fail to cast the impression of being supporters of the Muslims). So Muslim's sense of association with India is weaker as compared to any Hindu or Sikh living there.

I think biased Indian mentality has been fruitful for Pakistan and Muslims in many ways. Pakistan is a reality Alhamdolillah and we are a nuclear power towards which India cannot see with ill-intentions. But Bajrangdal and BJP is on the way or creating more insecurity for the Muslims in India who are getting more and more likely to stand with us instead of India in conflicts. Even if it is as minor as 5%, we have gained 5% and India has lost 5%.
 
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@AgNoStIc MuSliM

Thanks for correcting some facts. I had taken this 230 Million from a radio discussion. I think figures of Wikipedia would be more reliable.
You are welcome - but Wiki is only reliable if you verify the original sources used on Wiki to support the information there.

The original stats are actually from the Pakistani census in 1998 and the Indian census in 2001, with the 2009 and 2008 population estimates from the CIA factbook.
 
@AgNoStIc MuSliM

This article is exactly what Pakistan needs. We need Indians to blame Pakistan for every fault. When Nations stops looking inside for the problems, they lose their strength to fix them. We hold Americans responsible for half of our problems and see those problems have only increased. The day India would realize every problem within boundaries of India is Indian responsibility and result of their own arrogance, bias and prejudice, that should be the day when we need to worry.

:pakistan:
 
You are right...there is no Muslim leader..of the stature of Jinnah...(I know Indian posters may not like this) who can have a vision for community.....the existing leaders are too...moronic ...too self centered...too pessimists...and they will make sure that Indian Muslim does not move an Inch...because an Uneducated man is easy to tame...........

I am an Indian poster and i agree with the view that Jinnah was the biggest leader in his times. I will call him larger then Nehru, cause w/o all odds he had the leadership to start a new country. It needs a lot of that to do that.

India was already having all the systems the Administrative services and a revenue service .. education system.
He started it all alone, so in my view he is bigger leader then Nehru.

Meanwhile Gandhi was different he is not in the league of both. He was global image .. he had power of influence.

Ah yes i read the book Jinnah and partition of India. .. but had the same view earlier too. It takes different motivation to start some thing new... like an entrepreneur. You will always rate entrepreneur higher then a legacy owner.

Who was on right side or what was right. is not the question.
Maybe what happened at whatever cost was the best could have happened
 
@AgNoStIc MuSliM

This article is exactly what Pakistan needs. We need Indians to blame Pakistan for every fault. When Nations stops looking inside for the problems, they lose their strength to fix them. We hold Americans responsible for half of our problems and see those problems have only increased. The day India would realize every problem within boundaries of India is Indian responsibility and result of their own arrogance, bias and prejudice, that should be the day when we need to worry.

:pakistan:

Btw - it is only on this forum some of the Indians get into blaming Pakistan, however no where in India ..streets ..general talks etc we even mention or think of Pakistan.. Indian members who join this forum do it to feel superiority and try to tease the blogger across the border.

It is like the newly rich neighbor tries to show off his ..relatively better state of affairs. Though they both might be in same slum.

Pakistan really does not matter to 80% of India and that is 800 Million, it is the people from Punjab, Haryana, Delhi who still have not have come over the obsession including me :)

I am now in southern state of India, no one knows much abt Pakistan..as they do not follow any of the Hindi channels.. and the regional channels do not sensationalice things...also they cant relate to the prejudices , that north west India had..
 
I suppose its probably because the south never saw the blood bath the north did.
 
My Grandfather migrated from India Kolkotta i lived 13years of my life in Karachi in Malir Cantt and different areas never felt like a second class citizen have Punjabi Sindhi and Pathan friends i am orginally a Mohajir so..Pakistan Zindabad.I've heard from my grandpa that we use to own farms in India when we came to Pakistan had nothing now we have 2 houses 1 factory 2 cars 1 bike and alot Pakistan Zindabad
 

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