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Pakistan Spaceport Plans! PSDP 2020-2021 Highlights.

why our Institution are so stingy? Don't even share basic Ideas to fan the flames in us common people :(
Sadly, for the bad apples, transparency = oversight. So, it's easy for them to trick sincere generals/leaders into tightening up "scorty" to cover everything, not just the stuff that's actually sensitive. There are things you want to keep secret, but you can keep a big bubble secret (e.g., our nuclear program, apparently DESCON was involved in the construction work, though it was private sector @JamD). But our leaders insist on tiny bubbles, which are all secret. And when all the bubbles are tiny, they remain so because there is zero R&D sharing, collaboration, etc.
 
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Where are the Pakistan Space Centre (PSC) and Pakistan Spaceport going to be located?

My guess is Pakistan Space Centre will be a research lab in Islamabad

Pakistan Spaceport will most likely be launchpad for rockets in Balochistan. Pakistan Spaceport would be good for attracting smart people to Balochistan to develop the infrastructure or even build a completely new research city in Balochistan to support the spaceport.

Pakistan Space Centre was approved in December 2017 and is being built in Chakri, Rawalpindi District since July 2019. It will cost Rs 20 billion (85% funded by China) and will be completed over a 40-month period. Further reading.

However, SUPARCO's budget mysteriously vanished October 2019 after being approved and announced. I hope this isn't the case this year as well.
 
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When you have this crowd, then of course the bad apples can get away with bad decisions, e.g., relentlessly buying off-the-shelf from abroad, mismanaging defence industry policies, etc.
Even when you don't have celebrity culture around defence and armed forces, Governments still manage to make tremendously bad decisions like buying relentlessly from abroad, mismanaging defence industry and policies. A world-class exhibit in this is India.
 
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Even when you don't have celebrity culture around defence and armed forces, Governments still manage to make tremendously bad decisions like buying relentlessly from abroad, mismanaging defence industry and policies. A world-class exhibit in this is India.
In a way, it's 'good' that Pakistan wasn't blessed with as much oil/gas as the GCC. Otherwise, we'd see that money flow into the pockets of the party loyalists, generals, etc, and a plethora of ad hoc off-the-shelf purchases that don't mix well, aren't integrated, etc. And when there's a crash or crisis, we're still in the hands of the IMF.
 
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Pakistan Space Centre was approved in December 2017 and is being built in Chakri, Rawalpindi District since July 2019. It will cost Rs 20 billion (85% funded by China) and will be completed over a 40-month period. Further reading.

However, SUPARCO's budget mysteriously vanished October 2019 after being approved and announced. I hope this isn't the case this year as well.

Building a space launch center in Rawalpindi instead of nearest to the equator in coastal areas of Karachi, Balochistan? Why would Pakistan do that?
 
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Building a space launch center in Rawalpindi instead of nearest to the equator in coastal areas of Karachi, Balochistan? Why would Pakistan do that?
IIRC the 'Space Center' will focus on developing/producing satellites, but the launch center is separate.
 
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Here's what I'd do:

It's not a question of practicality, but creativity and vision.

Don't think in "either/or" but rather, "and."

So, in this case, you can task the STEM community and private sector to figure out the satellite program. Give them the requirements, delivery time-frame, and cost estimate. Start by awarding a $25 m study. Once we do that, the 'satellite group' will figure the rest out on their own.

Remember, they're staffed with PhDs and businessmen with deep pockets and contacts. They can conduct a local audit to see what Pakistan can do domestically, and what it can't. In fact, if there's no silos and "scorty" red tape, we'll find out that Pakistan can actually do a lot, either right away, or with additional R&D funding.

For the areas that Pakistan can't, this 'satellite group' will talk to Turkey, China, South Africa, Ukraine, USA, etc to find the inputs it actually needs. It might even hire seasoned experts from those countries to help with design.

The 'satellite group' will come back to me with a step-by-step action plan with itemized cost quotes of what it will take to develop and launch those satellites. We then see if we can afford it. If we can, then we give the green light and start releasing the funds for each developmental stage.

Of course, we set-up ironclad safeguards -- e.g., if they fail to meet the deadline, they surrender the contract and pay a penalty fee (we can use Turkey's model as an example). But if we had audited the 'satellite group' plan with a sharp eye, we wouldn't end up in this situation.

Anyways, to develop this satellite, the private sector itself will start building a lot of capacity for R&D and manufacturing. In all likelihood, it will start re-using this capacity to sell specific goods and services to other countries, thereby bringing in ForEx and, in turn, improving the quality and localization.

So, when we start tendering the 2nd generation of satellites, the 'satellite group' will come back with a better design with more local content. Obviously, the 'satellite group' will export even more with each generation, so the ForEx return increases, as does our tax revenue, as do the scope and budgets of our programs.
Amazing post. This forum is littered with such amazing ideas, but things on the ground never change and they have been running the same way for decades. At times I feel all this discussion is pointless.
 
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Amazing post. This forum is littered with such amazing ideas, but things on the ground never change and they have been running the same way for decades. At times I feel all this discussion is pointless.
iA there'll be a day when a bunch of us will butt heads with the ones in charge. One way or another, it will happen, and on that day, the truth will obvious to everyone. I'm being optimistic, but I'll stick to it even if it doesn't come to pass in my lifetime. It'll happen, one day. And folks like us will grin.
 
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iA there'll be a day when a bunch of us will butt heads with the ones in charge. One way or another, it will happen, and on that day, the truth will obvious to everyone. I'm being optimistic, but I'll stick to it even if it doesn't come to pass in my lifetime. It'll happen, one day. And folks like us will grin.
When the “Bunch of us” gets the chance, World would be a lot different place, Don’t know if we are better to adapting as compared to our previous generation which failed go keep up with advances of 21st Century.
 
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iA there'll be a day when a bunch of us will butt heads with the ones in charge. One way or another, it will happen, and on that day, the truth will obvious to everyone. I'm being optimistic, but I'll stick to it even if it doesn't come to pass in my lifetime. It'll happen, one day. And folks like us will grin.
My hope is enough young and future officers read these discussions and are swayed enough to make the right decisions once they're in positions of power. Sounds like a pipe dream but no other way. Perhaps people like @PanzerKiel can someday revolutionize R&D for us. (no pressure lol)
 
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@JamD

I finally get it.

In most places, the superficial, quick-fire discussions usually focus on celebrities and athletes. So, in India, you have Bollywood and cricket. In the US, you have the NBA, Hollywood, singers, etc.

Unfortunately, in Pakistan, because we have such a shitty cricket team and such a low-quality celebrity culture, a lot of people find 'entertainment' in discussing the armed forces. This is why everything around the armed forces has this weird celebrity culture, this superficiality, the fan-boyism (or even fan-girlism), etc.

When you have this crowd, then of course the bad apples can get away with bad decisions, e.g., relentlessly buying off-the-shelf from abroad, mismanaging defence industry policies, etc.

For these apples to face pressure, you have to cut through a lot of noise, and (as we can see on this forum right now), the noise is crowding out the serious questions.

Absolutely true.
We have such a hunger for good/feel-good stories that we naturally look towards the one area where our 'achievements' are of any meaning of significance - the military. The sight of the tanks and missiles rolling down the Shakarparian Parade Ground remains perhaps the only sight which can make people 'proud' of our country.
And the military itself - like any human (of which it consists) - has some of that inherent feeling of superiority.
Something like 'Pull ki dusri taraf' - the expression used to distinguish Karachi's DHA from the rest of the city

I think, The compartmentalization is due to the sensitive information involved.

For our lords of the SPD and other orgs, 'sensitive information' is a term they've come into the habit of lightly throwing around. I want to share a few lines with you to convey my point of view about this:

(Ben Rich, Director of Lockheed Skunk Works talking about the DoD's security classification for the F-117 Nighthawk program)

I was informed by a telegram from the Air Force chief of staff that Have Blue was now classified “Top Secret—Special Access Required.” That security classification was rare—clamped only on such sensitive programs as the Manhattan Project, which created the first atomic bomb during World War II. My first reaction was “Hooray, they finally realize how significant this technology really is,” but Kelly set me straight and with a scowl urged me to cancel the whole damned project right then and there.


“Ben,” Kelly warned me, “the security they’re sticking onto this thing will kill you. It will increase your costs twenty-five percent and lower your efficiency to the point where you won’t get any work done. The restrictions will eat you alive. Make them reclassify this thing or drop it.” On matters like that, Kelly was seldom wrong.


Here's what I'd do:

It's not a question of practicality, but creativity and vision.

Don't think in "either/or" but rather, "and."

So, in this case, you can task the STEM community and private sector to figure out the satellite program. Give them the requirements, delivery time-frame, and cost estimate. Start by awarding a $25 m study. Once we do that, the 'satellite group' will figure the rest out on their own.

Remember, they're staffed with PhDs and businessmen with deep pockets and contacts. They can conduct a local audit to see what Pakistan can do domestically, and what it can't. In fact, if there's no silos and "scorty" red tape, we'll find out that Pakistan can actually do a lot, either right away, or with additional R&D funding.

For the areas that Pakistan can't, this 'satellite group' will talk to Turkey, China, South Africa, Ukraine, USA, etc to find the inputs it actually needs. It might even hire seasoned experts from those countries to help with design.

The 'satellite group' will come back to me with a step-by-step action plan with itemized cost quotes of what it will take to develop and launch those satellites. We then see if we can afford it. If we can, then we give the green light and start releasing the funds for each developmental stage.

Of course, we set-up ironclad safeguards -- e.g., if they fail to meet the deadline, they surrender the contract and pay a penalty fee (we can use Turkey's model as an example). But if we had audited the 'satellite group' plan with a sharp eye, we wouldn't end up in this situation.

Anyways, to develop this satellite, the private sector itself will start building a lot of capacity for R&D and manufacturing. In all likelihood, it will start re-using this capacity to sell specific goods and services to other countries, thereby bringing in ForEx and, in turn, improving the quality and localization.

So, when we start tendering the 2nd generation of satellites, the 'satellite group' will come back with a better design with more local content. Obviously, the 'satellite group' will export even more with each generation, so the ForEx return increases, as does our tax revenue, as do the scope and budgets of our programs.

Your answers remind me of how much I still have to learn. Not just about the topics we're discussing but also about describing my views and ideas in a precise manner. So, thank you.

However, to put these ideas into practice, we will need some people with the 'right stuff' - who can challenge the status quo at the cost of their own careers most probably. It is in times like these that the human factor comes into play.

The policymakers of the strategic programs are mostly career soldiers or retired officers who are appointed for a fixed tenure and then leave. They are 'outsiders'. That is the very reason that they have no incentive to make far-reaching changes or to 'shake things up'. They just want to have a quiet, peaceful tenure and then retire to their estates with their hefty pensions. This 'jaisa chal rha hai waisa chalne do' mindset has a trickle down effect at the lowest levels of the organization. Brilliant young engineers and mid and senior-level executives (engineers/managers) see no incentive to actually work hard to solve complex problems, 'fight' the higher management for R&D opportunities, get valuable project experience under their belt, etc. They don't do all this because they know that no matter how good they are, they are only ever going to be second best, because the top job (with the policymaking power) is exclusively reserved for some general who is in the twilight of his career. This compels even young engineers to just do the bare minimum amount of work necessary to stay in the good graces of their superiors who are doing the exact same thing to stay in the good graces of their superiors and so on.

Some counterarguments:
  1. Our STEM community does NOT have NIL experience. Give them some credit. There are some excellent and experienced engineers within our organizations. Yeh Babur Shaheen Raad Shahpar khud nahin bangayay.
  2. Our history is checkered BECAUSE our STEM human resource is so badly managed. Not the other way around.
  3. Practical: Still promoting local R&D because a) we are not rich like UAE and SaudiArabia that we can buy everything that we fancy, and b) its a daldal that we will keep sinking in the longer we let this continue.
  4. You pay a LOT of premium when you buy from others. You pay extra and you are forced into options and choices you don't want. This can often have dangerous consequences for national security.
If I was a general:
  1. I would admit I know nothing about R&D.
  2. I would order that only lifelong members can head SPD organizations. Fauji or civillian doesn't matter, but has to have served AWC all their life to head AWC.
  3. I would ask the "scorty" establishment to ease off and let engineers do their thing. There are aspects of research you guard but you don't go apeshit in guarding everything.
  4. I would allow engineers to set their own goals on some level and ask engineers at every level to propose things. That is, I will not bark orders down and expect them to be followed.
  5. I will make a strict policy about nonperforming engineers. If you sit on your butt all day and drink chaye you WILL be fired.
  6. I will give out tenders to ONLY local pvt sector companies for things like nuts bolts fasteners chemicals. Gradually more complicated things like small electronics, machines, jigs.
  7. I will facilitate security clearances for these pvt sector industries.

You can't be more true. We have some very great nerds/tinkerers who happen to have formal engineering degrees and are excellent problem solvers. These are the kinds of people we should be after - the ones who thrive on solving problems, for whom engineering not a profession but a way of life - a small group of them, strategically placed, can do wonders. (Think along the lines of Skunk Works)

Yes that's what they say. That's what I believed till I was 24 when I got first-hand experience with these things. It's in the name of scorty but it's really serving no purpose. A controls group in NDC cannot help out a project at AWC. Do you hear how stupid that sounds? They're both SPD organizations under NESCOM. But a hypothetical project at AWC will suffer because of scorty. So AWC will be expected to develop their own controls group over a decade. Each organization is its own little kingdom. There are better ways to manage this. Obviously.

EDIT: Just a hypothetical example. Obviously AWC has a controls group.

I have seen 4 labs working adjacent to each other, having literally no idea about what the other is doing. And them being off-limits to anyone who is not an engineer at that specific lab.


*threadbump*

Maybe if enough people read these things something will click.

I sure hope so. I am actually looking for a way to save this entire discussion for future reference.
This is a gold mine of ideas and opinions - way too valuable.
I've decided that I'll have to stick around here. Have got a lot to learn from you guys @JamD and @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

iA there'll be a day when a bunch of us will butt heads with the ones in charge. One way or another, it will happen, and on that day, the truth will obvious to everyone. I'm being optimistic, but I'll stick to it even if it doesn't come to pass in my lifetime. It'll happen, one day. And folks like us will grin.

My hope is enough young and future officers read these discussions and are swayed enough to make the right decisions once they're in positions of power. Sounds like a pipe dream but no other way. Perhaps people like @PanzerKiel can someday revolutionize R&D for us. (no pressure lol)

There is nothing stronger than an idea whose time has come

Our time will come too, it's almost inevitable. The point is - will it be too late by then? Will we have missed the bus? Considering our record, it is highly likely. But us crazies can hope.
In the case that we do not miss the bus, will we be ready (in the material sense)?

These are all important questions and I'm pretty sure we all know the answers. And those answers don't give us a lot of reasons to be optimistic. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but our curse as a nation is that we have never been able to utilize the best and brightest of our people - we have always lost them. And that is a highly dangerous scenario - specially in an age where there are a handful of us who are truly great in the first place.
 
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@JamD

Unfortunately, in Pakistan, because we have such a shitty cricket team and such a low-quality celebrity culture, a lot of people find 'entertainment' in discussing the armed forces. This is why everything around the armed forces has this weird celebrity culture, this superficiality, the fan-boyism (or even fan-girlism), etc.
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This my friend the reason I am here !!!!

You are a gem really !!!
 
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We have such a hunger for good/feel-good stories that we naturally look towards the one area where our 'achievements' are of any meaning of significance - the military. The sight of the tanks and missiles rolling down the Shakarparian Parade Ground remains perhaps the only sight which can make people 'proud' of our country.
And the military itself - like any human (of which it consists) - has some of that inherent feeling of superiority.
Something like 'Pull ki dusri taraf' - the expression used to distinguish Karachi's DHA from the rest of the city
There's two kinds of people that go into SPD. One type are the ones you described above, like you, me, and most people on this forum, that want to make the next big thing and want to do amazing things for Pakistan. The other one is the sarkari naukri types. What happens to the former is what you've described so well (or they just leave):
Brilliant young engineers and mid and senior-level executives (engineers/managers) see no incentive to actually work hard to solve complex problems, 'fight' the higher management for R&D opportunities, get valuable project experience under their belt, etc. They don't do all this because they know that no matter how good they are, they are only ever going to be second best, because the top job (with the policymaking power) is exclusively reserved for some general who is in the twilight of his career. This compels even young engineers to just do the bare minimum amount of work necessary to stay in the good graces of their superiors who are doing the exact same thing to stay in the good graces of their superiors and so on.
So you're left with all sarkari types: sarkari because they always were sarkari, or sarkari because they've been forced to become sarkari.


For our lords of the SPD and other orgs, 'sensitive information' is a term they've come into the habit of lightly throwing around. I want to share a few lines with you to convey my point of view about this:

(Ben Rich, Director of Lockheed Skunk Works talking about the DoD's security classification for the F-117 Nighthawk program)

I was informed by a telegram from the Air Force chief of staff that Have Blue was now classified “Top Secret—Special Access Required.” That security classification was rare—clamped only on such sensitive programs as the Manhattan Project, which created the first atomic bomb during World War II. My first reaction was “Hooray, they finally realize how significant this technology really is,” but Kelly set me straight and with a scowl urged me to cancel the whole damned project right then and there.


“Ben,” Kelly warned me, “the security they’re sticking onto this thing will kill you. It will increase your costs twenty-five percent and lower your efficiency to the point where you won’t get any work done. The restrictions will eat you alive. Make them reclassify this thing or drop it.” On matters like that, Kelly was seldom wrong.
Excellent excellent story! Big fan of Kelly Johnson. What he has said is so true and everyone in SPD sees this everyday.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) you will especially appreciate Kelly's operating rules of "Skunk Works".
Screenshot_20200617-094307_WhatsApp.jpg


There is nothing stronger than an idea whose time has come

Our time will come too, it's almost inevitable. The point is - will it be too late by then? Will we have missed the bus? Considering our record, it is highly likely. But us crazies can hope.
In the case that we do not miss the bus, will we be ready (in the material sense)?

These are all important questions and I'm pretty sure we all know the answers. And those answers don't give us a lot of reasons to be optimistic. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic, but our curse as a nation is that we have never been able to utilize the best and brightest of our people - we have always lost them. And that is a highly dangerous scenario - specially in an age where there are a handful of us who are truly great in the first place.
The best thing people like us can do is to get more and more people to talk about these things. You need a critical mass of people thinking this way before anything can change.
 
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Excellent excellent story! Big fan of Kelly Johnson. What he has said is so true and everyone in SPD sees this everyday.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) you will especially appreciate Kelly's operating rules of "Skunk Works".
View attachment 642502


The best thing people like us can do is to get more and more people to talk about these things. You need a critical mass of people thinking this way before anything can change.

Oh boy. Never could have imagined finding another Kelly Johnson fan here.

You're right. The problem with our people is that they'd rather spend time in mudslinging the Indians or watching and discussing Haqeeqat TV rather than engaging in constructive and thought-provoking discourse.
(Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.)
 
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