Pakistan Spaceport Plans! PSDP 2020-2021 Highlights.

[JamD]

I think, The compartmentalization is due to the sensitive information involved.

Yes that's what they say. That's what I believed till I was 24 when I got first-hand experience with these things. It's in the name of scorty but it's really serving no purpose. A controls group in NDC cannot help out a project at AWC. Do you hear how stupid that sounds? They're both SPD organizations under NESCOM. But a hypothetical project at AWC will suffer because of scorty. So AWC will be expected to develop their own controls group over a decade. Each organization is its own little kingdom. There are better ways to manage this. Obviously.

EDIT: Just a hypothetical example. Obviously AWC has a controls group.

 

[StormBreaker]

I made an edit. See bold.

Lol

Yes that's what they say. That's what I believed till I was 24 when I got first-hand experience with these things. It's in the name of scorty but it's really serving no purpose. A controls group in NDC cannot help out a project at AWC. Do you hear how stupid that sounds? They're both SPD organizations under NESCOM. But a hypothetical project at AWC will suffer because of scorty. So AWC will be expected to develop their own controls group over a decade. Each organization is its own little kingdom. There are better ways to manage this. Obviously.

What a waste

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yes that's what they say. That's what I believed till I was 24 when I got first-hand experience with these things. It's in the name of scorty but it's really serving no purpose. A controls group in NDC cannot help out a project at AWC. Do you hear how stupid that sounds? They're both SPD organizations under NESCOM. But a hypothetical project at AWC will suffer because of scorty. So AWC will be expected to develop their own controls group over a decade. Each organization is its own little kingdom. There are better ways to manage this. Obviously.

You can check Turkey for an example. Aselsan (electronics) is involved with Roketsan (missiles) across the latter's SAM, AShM, etc technology. Or how Roketsan works to integrate its munitions to TAI's drones. Or heck, how each of these SOEs can easily work with Baykar Makina, i.e., a private sector firm, on the latter's drones.

I remember someone on this forum being shocked at how open Turkey was with its projects, the specifications, etc, and said they were careless with 'national secrets'...

...and the Turkish members were like:

 

[JamD]

You can check Turkey for an example. Aselsan (electronics) is involved with Roketsan (missiles) across the latter's SAM, AShM, etc technology. Or how Roketsan works to integrate its munitions to TAI's drones. Or heck, how each of these SOEs can easily work with Baykar Makina, i.e., a private sector firm, on the latter's drones.

I remember someone on this forum being shocked at how open Turkey was with detailing its projects, the specifications, etc, and were careless with 'national secrets'...

...and the Turkish members were like:

What I call the "secret" defense is brilliant actually.

1. You get to do whatever the F you want (classified)
   
2. You get to sound cool and mysterious - Yes even generals do this
3. You get to do whatever the F you want
4. Anyone who questions me is a traitor/spy

I made an edit. See bold.

Edit approved lol.

 

[truthfollower]

I remember someone on this forum being shocked at how open Turkey was with its projects, the specifications, etc, and said they were careless with 'national secrets'...

...and the Turkish members were like:

why they are so open? sharing their experience?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What I call the "secret" defense is brilliant actually.

1. You get to do whatever the F you want (classified)
   
2. You get to sound cool and mysterious - Yes even generals do this
3. You get to do whatever the F you want
4. Anyone who questions me is a traitor/spy

Yep. Plus they got fans outside of the 'scorty establishment' to add credence to this too.

why they are so open? sharing their experience?

It's not that they're 'open' about it, but rather, they don't think 90% of what Pakistan keeps secret is worth keeping secret. The Turks have the right R&D culture, and strong support mechanisms for the private sector.

Sadly, instead of asking our side to be more open, we get annoyed at Turks and Indians asking about specific info they're used to getting in the open domain. I think part of our reluctance is also from the fact that if something isn't good, everyone will know, and pressure will mount on making it better. In other words, folks have to do real work.

 

[JamD]

*threadbump*

Maybe if enough people read these things something will click.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

@JamD

I finally get it.

In most places, the superficial, quick-fire discussions usually focus on celebrities and athletes. So, in India, you have Bollywood and cricket. In the US, you have the NBA, Hollywood, singers, etc.

Unfortunately, in Pakistan, because we have such a shitty cricket team and such a low-quality celebrity culture, a lot of people find 'entertainment' in discussing the armed forces. This is why everything around the armed forces has this weird celebrity culture, this superficiality, the fan-boyism (or even fan-girlism), etc.

When you have this crowd, then of course the bad apples can get away with bad decisions, e.g., relentlessly buying off-the-shelf from abroad, mismanaging defence industry policies, etc.

For these apples to face pressure, you have to cut through a lot of noise, and (as we can see on this forum right now), the noise is crowding out the serious questions.

 

[JamD]

@JamD

I finally get it.

In most places, the superficial, quick-fire discussions usually focus on celebrities and athletes. So, in India, you have Bollywood and cricket. In the US, you have the NBA, Hollywood, singers, etc.

Unfortunately, in Pakistan, because we have such as shitty cricket team and such a crappy celebrity culture, a lot of people find 'entertainment' in discussing the armed forces. This is why everything around the armed forces has this weird celebrity culture, this superficiality, the fan-boyism (or even fan-girlism), etc.

When you have this crowd, then of course the bad apples can get away with bad decisions, e.g., relentlessly buying off-the-shelf from abroad, mismanaging defence industry policies, etc.

For these apples to face pressure, you have to cut through a lot of noise, and (as we can see on this forum right now), the noise is crowding out the serious questions.

Interesting theory. We do have a disproportionate number of defence fans in Pakistan (you and I included). Reminds me of the "40 year old virgin":

Putting defense on a pedastal

 

[FuturePAF]

The gap between Turkey and Iran on space is huge. We are talking a difference of maybe 10-20 years experience. Turkey has not launched any kind of rocket while Iran is experimenting with different types of SLV's.

The problem is not getting high tech components, Pakistan can already do that. The problem is that you need to find somebody who has actual experience with launch vehicle SLV's and knowing what works and what doesn't.

For Pakistan, that means either getting help from either China or Iran.

When you google Iranian rocket, this is what you get

When you google Turkish rocket, this is what you get

All the more reason to invite the Turks. the Iranians have a rocket and a SLV launch facility; the Iranians don’t need us. The Turks are at a similar level of development as Pakistan, when it comes to rocket technology. If both nations pool their resources and build the facilities in Pakistan, then both nations can advanced together. Pakistan can learn a lot more from a program in development receiving active R & D funding then a program already completed, hence why Pakistan wants to work with other nations in project AZM and not buy off the shelf.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Interesting theory. We do have a disproportionate number of defence fans in Pakistan (you and I included). Reminds me of the "40 year old virgin":

Putting defense on a pedastal

Well, the Turks put defence on a pedestal too, but what they don't do is elevate individuals. They get that the 'greats' they have today will have to move on eventually, so what counts is the strength of the institution, the policies, etc. That's where the focus and love is. In our case, it's on posts like, "PAF pilots wear sun glasses to prevent their eyes from wearing out..." which get a million Likes, God knows why.

 

[JamD]

All the more reason to invite the Turks. the Iranians have a rocket and a SLV launch facility; the Iranians don’t need us. The Turks are at a similar level of development as Pakistan, when it comes to rocket technology. If both nations pool their resources and build the facilities in Pakistan, then both nations can advanced together. Pakistan can learn a lot more from a program in development receiving active R & D funding then a program already completed, hence why Pakistan wants to work with other nations in project AZM and not buy off the shelf.

With the way things are in Pakistan, when you say invite XYZ to do this here, that XYZ will work in such isolation from our local R&D that we wont learn a damn thing. Like asking the Chinese to make a satellite for us (PAKSAT-1R). To absorb technology we need to have the ability to absorb it. What do we have to offer to any collaborator? We don't have manufacturing. Any weapons tech we do have is hidden behind 10 layers of scorty. The same layers of scorty prevent absorption. Even if absorbed in one organization, it doesn't benefit the rest, and it dies with retirements of specific people. All we could offer them is money, which is also something we don't have. So again, the solution isn't something tangible like buy rockets from Iran, satellites from Turkey, and science the crap out of it. The solution is long-term planning and "learning to learn".

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

With the way things are in Pakistan, when you say invite XYZ to do this here, that XYZ will work in such isolation from our local R&D that we wont learn a damn thing. Like asking the Chinese to make a satellite for us (PAKSAT-1R). To absorb technology we need to have the ability to absorb it. What do we have to offer to any collaborator? We don't have manufacturing. Any weapons tech we do have is hidden behind 10 layers of scorty. The same layers of scorty prevent absorption. Even if absorbed in one organization, it doesn't benefit the rest, and it dies with retirements of specific people. All we could offer them is money, which is also something we don't have. So again, the solution isn't something tangible like buy rockets from Iran, satellites from Turkey, and science the crap out of it. The solution is long-term planning and "learning to learn".

It works the other way too. There might actually be some R&D capacity in Pakistan of use to others, but no one will know due to "scorty." So, it precludes us from any real partnerships or collaborative works. If others knew or could see, they can set-up R&D bureaus in Pakistan to continue the work as well as supply to the Pakistani armed forces (much like how Boeing does in Australia, or Raytheon in the UK, etc).

So, for example, we might have people who can do a bit of work on electronics, and if everyone knew, then Aselsan might set-up a lab in Pakistan to carry out the work. When we have a hypothetical satellite program, then Aselsan might step in with a locally developed and manufactured solution. In turn, now others know about that Aselsan lab, so they'll actually ask to set-up their own shops for joint R&D in Pakistan without us even asking. In 7-10 years, you will have an ecosystem ready to go for more difficult projects. So if AvRID needs help with its controls tech, 1-2 labs will respond to the call.

 

[JamD]

It works the other way too. There might actually be some R&D capacity in Pakistan of use to others, but no one will know due to "scorty." So, it precludes us from any real partnerships or collaborative works. If others knew or could see, they can set-up R&D bureaus in Pakistan to continue the work as well as supply to the Pakistani armed forces (much like how Boeing does in Australia, or Raytheon in the UK, etc).

So, for example, we might have people who can do a bit of work on electronics, and if everyone knew, then Aselsan might set-up a lab in Pakistan to carry out the work. When we have a hypothetical satellite program, then Aselsan might step in with a locally developed and manufactured solution. In turn, now others know about that Aselsan lab, so they'll actually ask to set-up their own shops for joint R&D in Pakistan without us even asking. In 7-10 years, you will have an ecosystem ready to go for more difficult projects. So if AvRID needs help with its controls tech, 1-2 labs will respond to the call.

Right. Also welcome to the echo-chamber of @JamD @Bilal Khan (Quwa) lol.

 

[truthfollower]

It's not that they're 'open' about it, but rather, they don't think 90% of what Pakistan keeps secret is worth keeping secret. The Turks have the right R&D culture, and strong support mechanisms for the private sector.

why our Institution are so stingy? Don't even share basic Ideas to fan the flames in us common people