Pakistan single engine aircraft doctrine rules

[denel]

Hi,

It was just a skirmish---and the Paf exposed too much of its capability to look important and powerful---.

The real test of Paf was the night of 26th---the first time when the enemy was coming it---.

Intercepting and taking out the enemy would have showed how the Paf was ready on its FEET---.

Remember---the indians had already threatened to strike---there was no surprise in the 26th attack---.

That is where the Paf failed itself and the nation---. It had not done its homework---was not ready and prepared to take on the enemy at a moments notice and strike at it---.

What happened on the 27th was more of a show---.

It made people happy---it made the weapons manufacturer happy---.

Yes I do concur, they knew it was coming and were caught on the backfoot knapping; it is just luck or what ever you may call it the following day they came on top.

They are not prepared and will remain unprepared until there is accountability to show preparedness.

People may not like it but the self entitlement/glorification is a problem on its own; you fail to see the problem.

 

[Ghost 125]

So basically u fight on your own terms and not on enemies...

On 26 you manage to scare a large formation of enemy bomber 12 plus 8 escorts that they abandoned their target (which was a soft un protected target).. Only one bomber took a shot (4 bombs) unsuccessfully...
GPS / TV guided smart bomb missing means complete paralysis in cockpit and dumping of bombs and no proper targeting or it won't miss... Simple

U managed to do so without walking into trap (8 escorts) and without sustaining a loss...

Thats a brilliant result...


U don't run down enemies formed and figured formations... U wil b cut down...
So 26 was a completely successful defensive op... Enemy failed objective u did not sustain loss on air or ground...

U can see what happened on 27th when same equation was reversed...

U achieved targets... Enemy sustained losses in air and ground and shot down own heli in shere panic

very pertinent and logical.

 

[MastanKhan]

The real summary ...We have enough celebration for 27/2 on multiple threads. Lets just go back and analyzed 26/2 night without wearing the lens of nationalism

Hi,

Absolutely---. The reaction or in other words---a lack of reaction from the Paf on the 26th deserves more critical analysis---.

The enemy has encountered a chink in pakistan's air force's defense armor---.

And that is---Paf management does not have the ability to THINK ON ITS FEET---.

In multiple instances---the Paf has failed to take the initiative and meet the enemy head on upfront---.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Hi,

Absolutely---. The reaction or in other words---a lack of reaction from the Paf on the 26th deserves more critical analysis---.

The enemy has encountered a chink in pakistan's air force's defense armor---.

And that is---Paf management does not have the ability to THINK ON ITS FEET---.

In multiple instances---the Paf has failed to take the initiative and meet the enemy head on upfront---.

Mastan Khan Sb,

I respect you! but I think PAF knew and does think on its feet..but one needs balls to give credit where its due..

IAF planned and executed her mission successfully, what they intend to do did it..breach the LOC upto 4nm lobbed the Spice 2000s in bad weather where most missions would have aborted ...executed the launch maneuver perfectly and exited. Bombs missing the targets have Allah`s role in it...if small mathematical mistake was not made things would be different on ground.

They had gathered enough operational intelligence on PAF operations in preceding days...forced PAF in a situation through well spaced and coordinated diversions that when strike package penetrated LOC only single F-16 yes! Only single F-16 was charging towards them.

So all this talk of IAF been stupid and dumb in outright crap. PAF weakness was exposed and new norm was set. So when PAF went in to reprisal mode ROEs were gone, its all new ball game any threat that arises would have to be dealt with and they were able to Wipe the slate clean.

what happened the night of 26th till 1000Hrs of 27th Feb PAF did and tried to get in to position IAF didnt gave them the chance there was just one window opportunity and PAF took it knowing that anything can happen but they did it.

That is why i believe there are more kills scored then 2 ( i had mentioned 8 aircraft) sounds crazy but Pakistani narrative doesn't add up to the Picture as i believe IAF would have & should have tried her best to stop the strike with what ever they had in air at that time..hell we have OSINT report of even IAF AWACS got locked up. please remember IAF did not change within a day from been on Top of the game to be not able to come close to border Just like that! or by cautiously operating PAF. they had to suffered such battering that there Moral crashed from Top to Bottom some of there best pilots dead. that change showed that PAF was aggressive! they needed to change the new norm and set the precedence and example if next time you come up we will hit harder then this!

And For that Change I am so grateful to Allah that finally there are somebody with courage of a lion remains in PAF Corporate section to do what was necessary.

 

[ziaulislam]

ITS SIMPLE..THE FEDERAL BUDGET STARTS WITH NEGATIVE 600B..so unless this situation changes PAF will opt for the cheapest available option to maintain its 19 squardons

PAF needs 400 aircrafts and if there is any twin engine aircraft that fits the bill it will opt for it but the point is PAF is struggling even to get a single engine AC let alone a twin engine

 

[TheTallGuy]

To add a little ...i thought long and hard why DG ISPR and Pakistani narrative is stuck with 2 x aircraft down and a heli crash. then it dawned on me..Kargill...somebody noticed the similarity! India had lost 2 x aircraft and heli in 1999. is it a coincidence! No! its purely military and political decision based upon past events from which they could gauge a desired response from enemy!

they know that india can accept 2 aircraft lost and 1 x helicopter crash as its as equal to broader picture! and if they disclose real figures they go into unknown territory! and thus chances are of variable response!

@Windjammer @The Eagle @MastanKhan @Mangus Ortus Novem

 

[ziaulislam]

Mastan Khan Sb,

I respect you! but I think PAF knew and does think on its feet..but one needs balls to give credit where its due..

IAF planned and executed her mission successfully, what they intend to do did it..breach the LOC upto 4nm lobbed the Spice 2000s in bad weather where most missions would have aborted ...executed the launch maneuver perfectly and exited. Bombs missing the targets have Allah`s role in it...if small mathematical mistake was not made things would be different on ground.

They had gathered enough operational intelligence on PAF operations in preceding days...forced PAF in a situation through well spaced and coordinated diversions that when strike package penetrated LOC only single F-16 yes! Only single F-16 was charging towards them.

So all this talk of IAF been stupid and dumb in outright crap. PAF weakness was exposed and new norm was set. So when PAF went in to reprisal mode ROEs were gone, its all new ball game any threat that arises would have to be dealt with and they were able to Wipe the slate clean.

what happened the night of 26th till 1000Hrs of 27th Feb PAF did and tried to get in to position IAF didnt gave them the chance there was just one window opportunity and PAF took it knowing that anything can happen but they did it.

That is why i believe there are more kills scored then 2 ( i had mentioned 8 aircraft) sounds crazy but Pakistani narrative doesn't add up to the Picture as i believe IAF would have & should have tried her best to stop the strike with what ever they had in air at that time..hell we have OSINT report of even IAF AWACS got locked up. please remember IAF did not change within a day from been on Top of the game to be not able to come close to border Just like that! or by cautiously operating PAF. they had to suffered such battering that there Moral crashed from Top to Bottom some of there best pilots dead. that change showed that PAF was aggressive! they needed to change the new norm and set the precedence and example if next time you come up we will hit harder then this!

And For that Change I am so grateful to Allah that finally there are somebody with courage of a lion remains in PAF Corporate section to do what was necessary.

so where is the wreckage

and launching SOW has nothing to do with being prepared both IAF and PAF can do it from within their boaders

 

[TheTallGuy]

so where is the wreckage

You are talking about Su-30MKI wreckage from which 2 x chutes were seen! then my educated guess is it fell in no man`s land indians have it ..we captured the WSO or Pilot who is dead a sikh body returned.

Question you should be asking is where did the mirage 2000i go?

 

[MastanKhan]

Mastan Khan Sb,

I respect you! but I think PAF knew and does think on its feet..but one needs balls to give credit where its due..

IAF planned and executed her mission successfully, what they intend to do did it..breach the LOC upto 4nm lobbed the Spice 2000s in bad weather where most missions would have aborted ...executed the launch maneuver perfectly and exited. Bombs missing the targets have Allah`s role in it...if small mathematical mistake was not made things would be different on ground.

They had gathered enough operational intelligence on PAF operations in preceding days...forced PAF in a situation through well spaced and coordinated diversions that when strike package penetrated LOC only single F-16 yes! Only single F-16 was charging towards them.

So all this talk of IAF been stupid and dumb in outright crap. PAF weakness was exposed and new norm was set. So when PAF went in to reprisal mode ROEs were gone, its all new ball game any threat that arises would have to be dealt with and they were able to Wipe the slate clean.

what happened the night of 26th till 1000Hrs of 27th Feb PAF did and tried to get in to position IAF didnt gave them the chance there was just one window opportunity and PAF took it knowing that anything can happen but they did it.

That is why i believe there are more kills scored then 2 ( i had mentioned 8 aircraft) sounds crazy but Pakistani narrative doesn't add up to the Picture as i believe IAF would have & should have tried her best to stop the strike with what ever they had in air at that time..hell we have OSINT report of even IAF AWACS got locked up. please remember IAF did not change within a day from been on Top of the game to be not able to come close to border Just like that! or by cautiously operating PAF. they had to suffered such battering that there Moral crashed from Top to Bottom some of there best pilots dead. that change showed that PAF was aggressive! they needed to change the new norm and set the precedence and example if next time you come up we will hit harder then this!

And For that Change I am so grateful to Allah that finally there are somebody with courage of a lion remains in PAF Corporate section to do what was necessary.

Hi,

I am talking about the first incursion around Bahawalpur area---.

 

[TheTallGuy]

and launching SOW has nothing to do with being prepared both IAF and PAF can do it from within their borders

Spice 2000 have brochure range of 60km so in reality with all the variables its operational range should be around 40-45km if i stretch it. its perfectly sits with 6 x mirage 2000s breaching LOC coming in upto 4nm inside launching and turning back in proper as required maneuver.

That also opens up about Pakistani Strike Package and its tactics we know from OSINT that they were six Mirages with six H4 Raptor II all six also launched the weapons properly 2 x mirages that were 2 x seaters breached LOC with 2 x JF17 and 2 x Top cover F-16s to guided all six H4 Raptors to there targets perfectly. Targets which have decreased from six to four by DG ISPR in recent presser! so its like shifting sands now! its all deliberate some day before its was 6 targets then it becomes 4 just because nobody can find KG top and we dont want to tell what was at KG Top?

Hi,

I am talking about the first incursion around Bahawalpur area---.

As i understand 1st formations were detected near lahore-raiwind good 6-8 aircraft charging towards IB. 2nd Formation the was even larger 12-16 aircraft that you are talking about but IAF did not breached the IB. yes 8 km close to border will raise alarm and send everyone then came the 3rd from LOC.

On side note what interesting is these tactics are reminiscent of IDF/AF tactics in Yom Kapur War IDF/AF use to send 1st Group of 8-12 aircraft forward who were responsible for luring any airdefense fighters around, 2nd Group of 16-24 aircraft use to come with double action plan some were task to engage what ever is scrambled and some aircraft to soften up ground defenses and then came the 3rd Group of larger formation with one primary goal to attack the allocated target or targets.

This indian tactics that night are just refined and tuned up for modern times...and indo-Pak Scenario

 

[ziaulislam]

Spice 2000 have brochure range of 60km so in reality with all the variables its operational range should be around 40-45km if i stretch it. its perfectly sits with 6 x mirage 2000s breaching LOC coming in upto 4nm inside launching and turning back in proper as required maneuver.

That also opens up about Pakistani Strike Package and its tactics we know from OSINT that they were six Mirages with six H4 Raptor II all six also launched the weapons properly 2 x mirages that were 2 x seaters breached LOC with 2 x JF17 and 2 x Top cover F-16s to guided all six H4 Raptors to there targets perfectly. Targets which have decreased from six to four by DG ISPR in recent presser! so its like shifting sands now! its all deliberate some day before its was 6 targets then it becomes 4 just because nobody can find KG top and we dont want to tell what was at KG Top?



As i understand 1st formations were detected near lahore-raiwind good 6-8 aircraft charging towards IB. 2nd Formation the was even larger 12-16 aircraft that you are talking about but IAF did not breached the IB. yes 8 km close to border will raise alarm and send everyone then came the 3rd from LOC.

On side note what interesting is these tactics are reminiscent of IDF/AF tactics in Yom Kapur War IDF/AF use to send 1st Group of 8-12 aircraft forward who were responsible for luring any airdefense fighters around, 2nd Group of 16-24 aircraft use to come with double action plan some were task to engage what ever is scrambled and some aircraft to soften up ground defenses and then came the 3rd Group of larger formation with one primary goal to attack the allocated target or targets.

This indian tactics that night are just refined and tuned up for modern times...and indo-Pak Scenario

well he video from rafael claims its 100km but anyway lets assume its 60km, the target location is just 48km from LOC..
so 4nm breach from within 20 km indian boarder can be achieved so quickly that that apart from in air assests new scrambles will not be able to intercept any boggies..i doubt even air assets can intercept them

 

[TheTallGuy]

well he video from rafael claims its 100km but anyway lets assume its 60km, the target location is just 48km from LOC..
so 4nm breach from within 20 km indian boarder can be achieved so quickly that that apart from in air assests new scrambles will not be able to intercept any boggies..i doubt even air assets can intercept them

Exactly...something like pantsir system can defend it from ground but SOW intercepted in air i have never heard/Read about it.

 

[Army research]

Exactly...something like pantsir system can defend it from ground but SOW intercepted in air i have never heard/Read about it.

Bhai , loc is mountains you can't put a panstir in each and every tiny and large valley

 

[MastanKhan]

On side note what interesting is these tactics are reminiscent of IDF/AF tactics in Yom Kapur War IDF/AF use to send 1st Group of 8-12 aircraft forward who were responsible for luring any airdefense fighters around, 2nd Group of 16-24 aircraft use to come with double action plan some were task to engage what ever is scrambled and some aircraft to soften up ground defenses and then came the 3rd Group of larger formation with one primary goal to attack the allocated target or targets.

This indian tactics that night are just refined and tuned up for modern times...and indo-Pak Scenario

Hi,

BVR missiles---standoff weapons---!!!

The rules of engagement have changed---. The enemy can target the opponent staying well within its borders---.

To wait for border incursion is too late to react now---.

 

[loanranger]

The only way to prevent SOW deployment is to have a before hand intelligence report that such and such aircraft nearing the IB shall have them with intention to unload.
Then before the enemy aircraft enters their desired range(still within their borders) to unload send a nice volley of BVR missiles on them.That should do the trick.I dont think that the escorting sukhois will sacrifice themselves so that the Mirages can finish the job.
Now this is all well and good but the harsh reality is that both sides were able to successfully deploy their SOW's and get away with it.Reason being both sides created areas of localised air superiority by creating diversions elsewhere and once the vacumm was created the mirages from both sides entered.
Whosoever finds a way to prevent this from happening next time will go home happier.
Mind you next time IAF will not be targetting a madrassa.
Also mind you next time PAF will not miss INTENTIONALLY.