Pakistan should be a Secular State

[Kompromat]

This will help....
secularpakistan.wordpress.com/2010/01/26/jinnahs-will-to-the-nation-he-founded/

Jinnah's ideological mentor was Iqbal who was not a secularist, nor did Jinnah at any oceasion mention the word 'secularism'. The Aug 7th speech , Pakistani secularists babble so much about, doesn't exist anywhere in its audio visual form, except the texts that are prone to manipulation and distortion. There is no evidence of the Aug the 7th speech by Jinnah. On the contrary, Jinnah wanted an 'Egalitarian Islamic Democracy' which will be an inclusive state, which should explain the references to the protection of minorities and so on.

 

[truthlover]

@truthlover

"As Jinnah's own famous words go by : Religion should not be allowed to come into Politics….Religion is merely a matter between man and God”.


Do we have a credible source of this or you just invented it for your own convenience ?

“….Religion should not be allowed to come into Politics….Religion is merely a matter between man and God”. [Jinnah, Address to the Central Legislative Assembly, 7 February 1935]

 

[Kompromat]

“….Religion should not be allowed to come into Politics….Religion is merely a matter between man and God”. [Jinnah, Address to the Central Legislative Assembly, 7 February 1935]

What does this prove ?

 

[truthlover]

Really this is shameful .Read the quotes below of our father of the nation what he opted for us and compare them with today,s situation in our country(How much we have changed pakistan
: “….Religion should not be allowed to come into Politics….Religion is merely a matter between man and God”. [Jinnah, Address to the Central Legislative Assembly, 7 February 1935]
2 : “….in the name of Humanity, I care more for them [the Untouchables] than for Mussalmans. ” [Jinnah, Speaking about the Shudras or Untouchables, during his address at the All India Muslim League session at Delhi, 1934 ]

3 : “….I am NOT fighting for Muslims, believe me, when I demand Pakistan.” [Jinnah, Press Conference, 14 November 1946]

4 : “…. You are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed. That has nothing to do with the business of the State.” [Jinnah, Presidential address to the first Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, Karachi, 11 August 1947]

5 : “….no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and Equal citizens of One State.” [ Jinnah, Presidential Address to the first Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, 11 August 1947]

6 : “…. Now, I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal, and you will find that in due course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense because that is the personal faith of the individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State “. [Jinnah, Presidential Address to the first Constituent Assembly of Pakistan, 11 August 1947]
7 : ” But make no mistake : Pakistan is NOT a theocracy or anything like it.” [ Jinnah, Message to the people of Australia, 19 February 1948 ]

Whenever Jinnah uses the terms “Islam” and “Islamic” with reference to Pakistan, they are by no means in the sense of a Shariah State. Instead of focusing on the apparent tenor, which more often than not remains subject to diverse interpretations, debate and dispute, Jinnah very wisely remains focused on the SPIRIT of Islamic teachings, which in essence is also the spirit of every single known revealed religion. Thus he succeeds in upholding the secular cause without sacrificing the elements of morality and universal appeal. This spirit, according to him comprises of three elements – Equality, Justice and Fairplay. Any state capable of providing these three to ALL its citizens, would be, for all practical purposes “Islamic” in nature. The following two references are worthy of consideration :

8 : ” The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly…..Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught Equality of men, Justice and Fairplay to ‘EVERYBODY’…..In any case Pakistan is NOT going to be a theocratic State – to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims – Hindus, Christians and Parsis – but they are ALL Pakistanis. They will enjoy the SAME rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.” [ Jinnah, February 1948.Talk on Pakistan broadcast to the people of USA]

9 : ” Why this feeling of nervousness that the future constitution of Pakistan is going to be in conflict with Shariat Laws ?……Islamic principles today are are as much applicable as they were 1300 years ago……Islam and its idealism have taught Equality, Justice and Fairplay to EVERYBODY.” [ Jinnah, 25 January 1948. Address to Bar Association Karachi ]

Jinnah’s Secularism is obviously evident from his use of the term “EVERYBODY”. Even if he did not use the term “Secular” as overtly and frequently as one would have wished him to, his message is most patently one of “SECULARISM”.

 

[dexter]

One word : Never !!!!

Then it would be better we stay in united india
Millions of muslims gave their lives to make Pakistan a secular state ???

 

[Kompromat]

Jinnah’s Secularism is obviously evident from his use of the term “EVERYBODY”. Even if he did not use the term “Secular” as overtly and frequently as one would have wished him to, his message is most patently one of “SECULARISM”.

If i say that i reject your understanding of the above 'copy paste' from some blog, just on the basis of the fact that what you derive from the above extract is the work of your own mind, what would you reply to me?

If Jinnah wanted a Secular state, why would he not EVER use the word secularism in regards to, the ideological formation of Pakistan? - How do you answer ?

Why do you think that a 'Democratic,Egalitarian,Islamic Welfare State' model is 'Theocratic in nature' ?

 

[doppelganger]

Pakistan does not have any non-Muslims to speak of. What is the need to be a secular state? If suppose you do become a secular state, you would probably need to legislate tough laws to protect those that may want to apostatize. Then it makes sense.

 

[Kompromat]

Pakistan does not have any non-Muslims to speak of. What is the need to be a secular state? If suppose you do become a secular state, you would probably need to legislate tough laws to protect those that may want to apostatize. Then it makes sense.

All minorities are recognized and protected under Pakistani constitution.

 

[Last Hope]

Nothing of this sort was recorded, provide evidence.


Muhammad Ali jinnah said in his Muslim league address on 18th June 1945:
"Pakistan does not mean freedom and independence only, but the Islamic ideology as well which has to be preserved, which has come to us as a precious gift."

 

[HariPrasad]

Basically we are less islam driven and more driven by nationalism .Politicians uses islam wherever the saw the opportunity to full fill their dirty objectives .Today in our country islam mostly exists in politics and less in our real lives and we are the product of confused ideology and distorted history.I personally know many foreigners who were shocked when they saw Pakistan with their own eyes rather than the perception about pakistan they developed from media.According to them it is less islamic than most muslim countries.Tell me in which pure islamic country like saudi arabia etc people have sex and drink in mujra parties?.Where they have a vulgar film industry like ours?Our banking system is not islamic and almost all pakistanis have interest bearing accounts.In islam there is just nikkah and walima but here we celebrate mehdis and barats .In which islamic nation there is a licensed alcohol manufacturing company(muree brewary in pakistan) and 90% of their customers are muslims?Practically we are secular people living in a islamic state.

Batter you less talk about Saudi. Your country Pakistan is much batter than Saudi. They people get small children steal. They get it byte by camels and makes fun out of that. Arabs are bigest drinkers and found of girls and prostitutes. They beheads people for small crimes. And most of them are Pakistanis.

How Mahedi is against Islam? It is batter that still old culture of India prevails in Pakistan. The day when you try to Arabs, you will see even worst days.

 

[truthlover]

If i say that i reject your understanding of the above 'copy paste' from some blog, just on the basis of the fact that what you derive from the above extract is the work of your own mind, what would you reply to me?

If Jinnah wanted a Secular state, why would he not EVER use the word secularism in regards to, the ideological formation of Pakistan? - How do you answer ?

Why do you think that a 'Democratic,Egalitarian,Islamic Welfare State' model is 'Theocratic in nature' ?

So the whole point beyond your questions are that i am speaking BS or that blog was full of lies?

 

[L@eeq]

as weird as this may sound, I think you can be an Islamic State but with many secularist principles. Basically - what JINNAH SAHIB wanted.

Actually what he envisioned was a welfare-state but unfortunately with the dirty politics and the dirty feudalistic mindset in parts of the country that would be difficult unless there were major structural changes


no, that doesnt mean socialism or "wealth distribution"....ZA Bhutto tried that, and he fcked the country over

wasn't hazrat umar r.a erra a walfare era and the state as welfare state??
we need rulers who have fear of ALLAH in their heart. and implement islamic laws from Quran and sunnah.
people here say islam cant walk with modern day world. but i think this is illetrate and selfproclaimed alims. who are main hurdle in pakistani society between people and education. because if a person is educated then surely there chanda is stopd .

 

[Kompromat]

So the whole point beyond your questions are that i am speaking BS or that blog was full of lies?

Its perfectly fine with me if you wish to believe in something you read on a blog. However if this topic is to be debated to the fullest, i would have to ask tough questions which i am unsure if you are either prepared/equipped or both to answer.

 

[T-123456]

The events as they have unfolded over the past few months have once again underscored the need for Pakistan to be a constitutionally secular state.

Instead of getting into the debate as to whether Pakistan was meant to be a secular state (which I believe it was but that is not the point here) or a modern Islamic state (whatever that means), let us be very clear- it was NOT meant to be a state where rogue raggle taggle groups like the Taliban would challenge the writ of the state and then establish its own system of “justice” based on a misinterpretation of Islam. Islam is not the problem here. I tend to agree with the interpretation of Islam that is favored by Allama Ghamidi but the question that comes up is “which Islam?” Ghamidi’s? Or Israr Ahmad’s? Rahman Baba’s ? or the Taliban’s? Iqbal’s? or Maududi’s?


Since easly 70s we’ve seen a steady erosion of fundamental rights in this country, all justified by the Islamic provisions of the constitution.

Now therefore we must learn a lesson from this. Islam is a rational and pragmatic religion which aims to create a just and egalitarian society. It does not favor any exclusivism of any kind and treats faith as a matter between man and god. Islam also does not favor form over substance. A state does not become Islamic simply because it is called Islamic. Similarly a state meets certain criteria of social justice, equality and human solidarity, it is perfectly Islamic, even if there isn’t a single Muslim living there. ”. The issue of what constitutes an Islamic state has no consensus and therefore it much more advisable to strive for a just society that Islam claims it seeks to create.

So let us not forsake the substance for form. Only a secular state which saves Islam from manipulation by various contending groups in this country can truly fulfill the aims and objectives of Pakistan as a prosperous and egalitarian state. This is no paradox. It was no paradox that the Muslims of South Asia chose as its leader someone like Jinnah who was so obviously disdainful of religiousity for anyone else would be too partisan or sectarian. The same principle applies on a state level.

Let us say this openly: Pakistan needs to be a secular state to survive. There is no other way. True Islamic principles of equality, fraternity and justice dictate it.

As Jinnah's own famous words go by : Religion should not be allowed to come into Politics….Religion is merely a matter between man and God”.
Pakistan needs to implement the approach adopted by countries like Turkey , Malaysia so that real progress can be achieved instead of creating an army of defenders of faith who cause more damage to the nation than do anything for its progress practically .

In those days it was possible because people listened to Jinnah,do you have someone like him now who can unite all people and whom they listen to?
No,so your idea is a dream.
In the current situation the best solution for Pakistan would be a Patriot dictator who cares only for the nation.
He could slowly form the state into whats best for all.

 

[Kompromat]

wasn't hazrat umar r.a erra a walfare era and the state as welfare state??
we need rulers who have fear of ALLAH in their heart. and implement islamic laws from Quran and sunnah.
people here say islam cant walk with modern day world. but i think this is illetrate and selfproclaimed alims. who are main hurdle in pakistani society between people and education. because if a person is educated then surely there chanda is stopd .

Please provide me the following.

* ONE book named 'Sharia Law' that describes 'every' function of the state.

* ONE example of a country that is 'governed by that Sharia Law' that you think Pakistan should look like.


We will have further discussion if you provide me the above two.