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Pakistan should acquire Altay Tanks from Turkiye?

The Altay looks to heavy and is probably really expensive, but nevertheless if Pakistan can afford it and buy it with TOT then it would be a good idea and a great boost to our Tank fleet.

The tank is 60 tonnes but does have adequate power to sustain the weight, latest batches produced by Turkiye have 1800+ hp. According to wiki cost per unit is 5.5 mill. Which is within fair range of military spending for PA, it's a feasible option.

My only concern about this tank is speed, anybody think the speed is inadequate or maybe for a tank of this size the speed is adequate? (according to wiki speed is 70 km/h (43 mph) max.)
 
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1800hp engine is still nt active in russian or american tanks,,even nt in the leo.

head on head comparision specially for PA
Atlay 60tons ak2 55-58tons(because with 1500hp engine it need atleast to have 55 tons.if it remained the same with 1500engine it will be overpowered extremly so 55-58ton is a rough estimate

atlay 1500engine ak2 1500hp engine
atlay 120mm ak2125mm
atlay armor might be composite(tot of armor transferred by pak to Turkey) ak2(experianced from ak1 and ak armor,might also we get tech of al203 from china to make it lighter and stronger)
price atlay8mnUSD price ak2 5mnusd
torsion bar both
pak indegenous aps system for AK2 while of atlay it is from south korea including many more things

timeline of ak2 possibly 2015 while for atlay it will enter turkey army by 2015 we might get it in 2020.when we will be working on ak3

i dont know in which area atlay is ahead of ak2
performance wise ak2 and atlay are almost equal.

and also i dont think we will get TOT..because turkey has paid 500millions for tot from South korea

the atlay will use k2 barrel,engine,armor tech from ak and k2,the turret will also be similer to k2

overall ak2 wins in every expect

this doesnt mean tht atlay is inferior..bt will nt be as advantageous for pak as the ak2 will be
 
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I guess Pakistan shold trust within its own inventions and try to upgrade its Alkhalid MBTs . They don't need to go for any other tanks if our tanks can do the same thing what the Europeans can do.
 
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PA wont be going for any imported item in tank category anytime soon, we are not proceeding with the AK-II roll out at the moment only because that PA realize that it is not required at the moment. the AK-I is more then capable of doing the job. AK-II will come in once the indian get something better. in this scenario, i dont think there will be any imports!!

we should not spend $$ on things that we can make good at home!\

regards!

---------- Post added at 07:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 AM ----------

I guess Pakistan shold trust within its own inventions and try to upgrade its Alkhalid MBTs . They don't need to go for any other tanks if our tanks can do the same thing what the Europeans can do.

we are, the AK-I is a prime example. making it one of the best in world.
the Ak-II is also under development.
 
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The basic difference between Altay and AK is the operating environment. AK is made to order to operate in the Plains of Punjab and Deserts of Sindh. Altay is designed to operate in Turkish operating environment which is much cooler and the ground/surface is harder. Furthermore, the operating ranges also differ. This coupled with heat levels, presence or absence of water bodies; infrastructure and dust levels are some of the things that dictate the specs of both the armored fighting vehicles.

AK has been operating in Pakistani environment for almost a decade now. Lessons have been learned, operating doctrine has been established or modified, keeping in view the capabilities of the AK/T-80UD/T-85 in strike elements. The cost of induction of a new tank will also include the cost of a thorough evaluation of our operating doctrine which would require time, money and re-training.

AK already has a number of westerns (or western influenced) designed and supplied components including FCS, Optics, Gearbox, Power Pack, etc. Therefore, not much can be gained from Altay here. As far as armor is concerned, it seems that technology sharing has been done by us rather than the other way. In fact, if there are systems and subsystems that are way up their in state-of-the-art, we will not get it due to the "Chinese" factor.

On top of that Pakistani Army personnel have been involved in exhaustive evaluation of various western tanks for KSA and are fully versed with the capabilities of their western counterparts and Directorate of Armored Corps is in possession of these detailed studies. I know atleast one person who was involved in the French AMX 56 and Leopard II evaluation in KSA.

Altay, might be an excellent weapons platform for Turkish Armed Forces, would have serious handicaps while operating in Pakistani conditions – to name a few; Weight (Eastern part of our defenses are based upon natural water bodies – assault bridges would be required to launch counter attacks –that would require assault bridges of higher ratings – higher induction cost!) Same is the case with the railway rolling stock! Furthermore, due to extremely dusty environment, all year round, a number of changes would be needed in the air intake filters for the engines (Remember M1 Abrams). Heat is also another element where Altay might have some problems, especially in the deserts of Sindh and Southern Punjab – all of these modifications generally add to weight.

IMHO a better bet for Pakistani Armored Corps would be to stick with an AFV which was designed from inceptions as a Pakistani specific AFV – well suited for our operating environment and level of education and training. Yes, there are areas that need improvement including faster loading time of the Auto Loader (Not that it is slow – but can use faster cycle times), Enhancement in Snap Shoot capability, Anti-Helo capability, Anti missile warning and defense capability (As rightly pointed out by one of the contributors on this thread – we will seldom see a Tank on Tank battle anymore but more of a Helo or Anti Tank vs Tank engagements) and reactive armor as a standard.

My 2C worth.
 
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PA wont be going for any imported item in tank category anytime soon, we are not proceeding with the AK-II roll out at the moment only because that PA realize that it is not required at the moment. the AK-I is more then capable of doing the job. AK-II will come in once the indian get something better. in this scenario, i dont think there will be any imports!!

we should not spend $$ on things that we can make good at home!\

regards!

---------- Post added at 07:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 AM ----------



we are, the AK-I is a prime example. making it one of the best in world.
the Ak-II is also under development.
But PA has histroically maintained superiority in Mechanized department to outweigh the Indian field superiority. AFAIK, AK-1 (Which is in fact what we refer to AK-II here in discussions because the current MBT is AK, not AK-1) prototype was complete waiting for testing while production of AK-1 (not AK) was delayed due to funding problem. Its sometime better to have something more capable in arsenel and PA wont mind this if finances permit.
 
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Sir if Pakistan can but any latest TANK with TOT it will also produce locally and also will give us latest Technology

Not every foreign thing is always better than the home grown one, don't forget that turkey is still new in this arena while PA and Heavy industry taxila is doing this for quite sometime now. Another expect is the time when altay tanks are put into service and that is 2015 which is still 4 years ahead and even if PA goes for the Altay tanks , don't expect them to get them in 2015 as first TA needs will be satisfied and then they will think about exporting it , on the other hand we can induct home grown AK-1 and AK-2 much before that

On another note Altay tanks is much heavier for PA likings , it weighs 12 tonnes more than our al-khalid tank

While if you see the technical comparison AK houses 125mm smooth bore gun while that of atlay is 120mm, For suspension Atlay has Torsion bars while AK has both torison bars as well as hydraulic dumpers , AK has more speed than Atlay

Atlay has one edge our AK and that is engine power , AK has 1200Hp while Altay will have 1500hp but still as the engine is going to be the turkish local one so still nothing can be said about the performance until and unless the performance can be measured after putting it into service .while on the other hand AK-2 is planned to have 1500hp engine

AK-1 and AK-2 are going to be more advance than current AK , AK-1 will house many new equipments , Like AK-1 will house Ukrainian Varta electro-optical jammer (disrupts laser rangefinders, laser designators and anti-tank guided missile tracking systems) and Sagem third-generation thermal imagers and improved air conditioning system.
 
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The Turkish tanks looks good but Pakistans Alkhalid is good too...they both can do the same thing...
 
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1-go for the source,that is south korea.Altay itself lend significant technology from South Korean K2 MBT with some cosmetic difference and locally produced FCS and some subsystem

2-any significant procurement will definitely include ToT,especially from non-traditional supplier,like south korea

3-K2 MBT can be locally assembled,considering pakistani capability in producing MBT of its own.and some local subsystem can be incorporated to make it more suitable for local terrain

4-K2 is the most advanced MBT in the world.currently only 1 tank that is as advanced:Leopard 2A7

5-international response?
i-both pakistan and south korea are US allies,no any negative response from USA is unlikely
ii-china does not have any political influence in pakistan armed force,and i don't think china have any problem with it either
iii-south korea and india has insignificant relationship,thus anything coming from them is deemed as irrelevent
 
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The basic difference between Altay and AK is the operating environment. AK is made to order to operate in the Plains of Punjab and Deserts of Sindh. Altay is designed to operate in Turkish operating environment which is much cooler and the ground/surface is harder. Furthermore, the operating ranges also differ. This coupled with heat levels, presence or absence of water bodies; infrastructure and dust levels are some of the things that dictate the specs of both the armored fighting vehicles.

AK has been operating in Pakistani environment for almost a decade now. Lessons have been learned, operating doctrine has been established or modified, keeping in view the capabilities of the AK/T-80UD/T-85 in strike elements. The cost of induction of a new tank will also include the cost of a thorough evaluation of our operating doctrine which would require time, money and re-training.

AK already has a number of westerns (or western influenced) designed and supplied components including FCS, Optics, Gearbox, Power Pack, etc. Therefore, not much can be gained from Altay here. As far as armor is concerned, it seems that technology sharing has been done by us rather than the other way. In fact, if there are systems and subsystems that are way up their in state-of-the-art, we will not get it due to the "Chinese" factor.

On top of that Pakistani Army personnel have been involved in exhaustive evaluation of various western tanks for KSA and are fully versed with the capabilities of their western counterparts and Directorate of Armored Corps is in possession of these detailed studies. I know atleast one person who was involved in the French AMX 56 and Leopard II evaluation in KSA.

Altay, might be an excellent weapons platform for Turkish Armed Forces, would have serious handicaps while operating in Pakistani conditions – to name a few; Weight (Eastern part of our defenses are based upon natural water bodies – assault bridges would be required to launch counter attacks –that would require assault bridges of higher ratings – higher induction cost!) Same is the case with the railway rolling stock! Furthermore, due to extremely dusty environment, all year round, a number of changes would be needed in the air intake filters for the engines (Remember M1 Abrams). Heat is also another element where Altay might have some problems, especially in the deserts of Sindh and Southern Punjab – all of these modifications generally add to weight.

IMHO a better bet for Pakistani Armored Corps would be to stick with an AFV which was designed from inceptions as a Pakistani specific AFV – well suited for our operating environment and level of education and training. Yes, there are areas that need improvement including faster loading time of the Auto Loader (Not that it is slow – but can use faster cycle times), Enhancement in Snap Shoot capability, Anti-Helo capability, Anti missile warning and defense capability (As rightly pointed out by one of the contributors on this thread – we will seldom see a Tank on Tank battle anymore but more of a Helo or Anti Tank vs Tank engagements) and reactive armor as a standard.

My 2C worth.

The cost of induction of a new tank will also include the cost of a thorough evaluation of our operating doctrine which would require time, money and re-training.

The cost of not inducting may be even greater. If Pakistan can get transfer of technology I think it will be a worthwhile investment as it would lend HIT and PA advance tank technology from South Korea K2 and Turkish Altay Tank tech. Pakistan has to modernize it's armored cavalry as soon as possible and must acquire tank superiority and advantage. What is this nonsense talk some people are saying here of waiting for if country x gets a better tank then we improve our own tank, this flawed and deadly idiotic ideology is going to get us killed, stop playing catch up and actually lead. I also understand the role of AH against tanks, and tank vs tank battles are to be limited; In my opinion in the Pakistan and regional theater tank warfare is still a reality, hence that reality must be favorable.

which would require time, money and re-training.

You mean as new technologies or platforms are acquired or developed the Army has to adapt to them? Of course, what is wrong with that, it is money worth spending. Defense of the nation is sacred.

Lessons have been learned, operating doctrine has been established or modified, keeping in view the capabilities of the AK/T-80UD/T-85 in strike elements.

Those lessons can be adapted and applied to Altay tank operations and utilization.


Furthermore, due to extremely dusty environment, all year round, a number of changes would be needed in the air intake filters for the engines (Remember M1 Abrams). Heat is also another element where Altay might have some problems, especially in the deserts of Sindh and Southern Punjab – all of these modifications generally add to weight.

These are fair and critical points and should be examined by Pakistani engineers at HIT, they can certainly make necessary modifications to Altay Tank to make it more applicable in the Pakistan region of operations.

IMHO a better bet for Pakistani Armored Corps would be to stick with an AFV which was designed from inceptions as a Pakistani specific AFV – well suited for our operating environment and level of education and training. Yes, there are areas that need improvement including faster loading time of the Auto Loader (Not that it is slow – but can use faster cycle times), Enhancement in Snap Shoot capability, Anti-Helo capability, Anti missile warning and defense capability (As rightly pointed out by one of the contributors on this thread – we will seldom see a Tank on Tank battle anymore but more of a Helo or Anti Tank vs Tank engagements) and reactive armor as a standard.

Again, if Pakistan can get transfer of technology is will boost Pakistan's technological base and understanding and will be beneficial for future projects regarding AFVs. Pakistani AFV's indigenous is certainly a great way to progress. However I don't see how it would be harmful to procure the Altay MBT with transfer of technology. This would assure AFV superiority and facilitate in infantry advancement of course backed by PA's AH. (Pakistan also has to procure new AH, pref. T-129).
 
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1-go for the source,that is south korea.Altay itself lend significant technology from South Korean K2 MBT with some cosmetic difference and locally produced FCS and some subsystem

2-any significant procurement will definitely include ToT,especially from non-traditional supplier,like south korea

3-K2 MBT can be locally assembled,considering pakistani capability in producing MBT of its own.and some local subsystem can be incorporated to make it more suitable for local terrain

4-K2 is the most advanced MBT in the world.currently only 1 tank that is as advanced:Leopard 2A7

5-international response?
i-both pakistan and south korea are US allies,no any negative response from USA is unlikely
ii-china does not have any political influence in pakistan armed force,and i don't think china have any problem with it either
iii-south korea and india has insignificant relationship,thus anything coming from them is deemed as irrelevent
Will South Korea sell any country K-2
 
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altay won't be here if the korean doesn't intend to sell their K2

besides South korea is thinking about spreading the production cost and one obvious way to do that is to export it
 
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Altay and K-2 are two different project and Koreans have nothing to say When Turkey decided to sell Altay to an 3th country excluding China and N. Korea. Turkey, Otokar are taking know-how at some specific areas from Korea, not produing K-2 under licence...

Altay BHT design
di-SN0C1132-1.jpg


Altay with add-on Roketsan armours...
otokaraltay.jpg
 
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