PAKISTAN: Sectarian killings -- the nexus between Saudi Arabia and the army

[Ganymede]

This thread is nothing but hindustanys attempt to do army bashing - and that too as guests posting on a Pakistani forum which accepts these people and allows them to post hastily written garbage.

Pakistan and KSA have a joint officers program and intel sharing between both is going on for years. To suggest that the army is instrumental in promoting Wahhabism in Pakistan or anything to the tune of that is mere sensationalism.

I can name at least one serving COAS who in fact defied Saudi advice for Pakistan to participate in something the Saudis openly supported (Pakistan sending contributing forces to Iraq in 1990) and that too despite the fact that Saddam supported terrorism in Baluchistan Province.

When sensationalism begets stupidity, you know you won't have a debate worthy topic


Now to answer some points you made:


a.) you conveniently forget the millions strong Pakistani diaspora in KSA, some of whom return and bring a newly learned culture with them (some are born in KSA and have never even lived or step foot in Pakistan)

b.) the Army is a product of the people it serves, as it comes from the people itself....they aren't martians from outer space, nor are they from the bourgeoisie elitist class as they were in the 1950s and 60s.

c.) it is the responsibility of the GOVT, not the Army -- to ensure that all foreign-funded religious schools are not preaching anti-national or "exteme" (self-serving) interpretations of the Quran. The Army's job is just to defend the borders from the enemy(s)

d.) with regards to the latter part of your post in which you say:




here's a link to The Nation -- a report of an attack by LeJ -- in which the name of the organization as well as members wanted for questioning was listed

Banned outfit behind twin blasts | The Nation

and i've heard the banter about Nation being "right-wing" and "pro Army" many a time!


here's another

Sipah-e-Sahaba leader shot dead in Khairpur: police | The Nation

Sir, low level individuals do not have the power to sway official policy, you need to be in a position of power to do that. You don't always have to participate in murder, you turning a blind eye to the injustice makes you just as complicit in the crime as the guy who pulls the trigger. The PA have no qualms letting the Saudi ideology and funding pour into the country as long as it got it's share of the moola and it served the perceived purpose. It bred the chickens and well and was flabbergasted when they came home to roost.

a.) you conveniently forget the millions strong Pakistani diaspora in KSA, some of whom return and bring a newly learned culture with them (some are born in KSA and have never even lived or step foot in Pakistan)

This argument has no legs because things don't work that way. In order for there to be an ideological shift, the push needs to come from the very top, by top i mean the people who have the power to shape up (read manipulate) the psyche of the proletariat. The have various tools at their disposal, from literature to television to seminary's, it became all too easy after the second world war. To further accentuate my point let me give you the example of the UK which is home to the second largest Pakistani diaspora however you cannot make the argument that the expats there bring home the British version of Islam (whatever that might be). Hope that made sense.
b.) the Army is a product of the people it serves, as it comes from the people itself....they aren't martians from outer space, nor are they from the bourgeoisie elitist class as they were in the 1950s and 60s.

That maybe so, but the people in the high cabals of power do have that bourgeois mentality and then some.


c.) it is the responsibility of the GOVT, not the Army -- to ensure that all foreign-funded religious schools are not preaching anti-national or "exteme" (self-serving) interpretations of the Quran. The Army's job is just to defend the borders from the enemy(s)

Again, that argument would be valid had Pakistan been ruled by a people's government but that wasn't the case now was it? instead we had the army that held the reigns of the country over large swathes of time. The proof is in the pudding as they say and when you analyze the whole situation without the inherent bias of loving ones armed forces, you'll come to the conclusion that since it was the army that made most of the decisions during Pakistanis 60 plus year history therefore it is her that needs to share some of the blame for the cancer that was allowed to flourish within the society. You have to take ownership of the bad things that happened in your reign just like you do with the good ones.

 

[arslan_treen]

Blaming Army for spreading Any thing is like Blaming the house guard for leakage in ones roof.

Its funny how the whole Zardari Media has jumped upon army like wild dogs spreading theories of the same weight as that of Flying Spaghetti monster ,when the real effected people (the Hazara's) are from day one trusting and seeking help of one and only organisation in Pakistan (ARMY) this is their only demand .

To me all this Drama points to one single direction the High fear of Army or intern setup Taking over and then doing accountability of any nature and the first to fall will be these mighty so called Journalists .
Its not likely that Army Taking over will have its reason in morality but simple necessity and to justify any such take overs or intern setup the Taking over party will have to do some real "Good", and all these stupid stupid columnists and game makers are in fear of That "Good".

(above is personal Opinion and should be taken as such)

 

[KRAIT]

With friends like KSA, UAE and US, Pakistan don't need enemies.

 

[arslan_treen]

Double Post

 

[Sinnerman108]

Unbelievable how people can be obsessed with KSA.

*Correction

How Sh__ are obsessed with Saudi Arabia.
How most of the media is Sh__
how the government is Sh__

People in Pak are suffering, of every day bomb attacks and restless.
They need some one to blame

the Sh__ are showing the way. The Sh__ have always been good at crying and making silly connections !

 

[United]

With friends like KSA, UAE and US, Pakistan don't need enemies.

pandeyji app bhi kamaal karte ho.............in sabhi ke saat app bhi chumma chatii kerte ho na?

 

[Spring Onion]

Hazaraz (Shia Pakistanis in Blachistan) trusts Army more than anyone; they demanded handing over Balochistan to Army for their safety: This is a big slap on faces of the @$$holes who have came up with this thread and misinformation.

 

[KRAIT]

pandeyji app bhi kamaal karte ho.............in sabhi ke saat app bhi chumma chatii kerte ho na?

Bhai fir bhi thoda duur rekhte hain. Aapke sage nahin hue, hamare saath kya wafa karenge.

 

[Developereo]

Great discussion.

I actually agree with parts of what muse, FaujH, and AbuZ (along with others) are saying, paradoxical as it may seem.

I agree that the cancer of extremism lies within society and is the responsibility of the civilian government to eradicate. The army's job is to deal with external threats. Let's hold the civilian institutions, whose job it is to provide governance, accountable for their responsibilities.

I also agree with muse, and to answer AbuZ's question, that the army was the initial culprit that allowed this cancer to flourish within Pakistan. The reason goes back to the Afghan-Soviet war. The US/Arabs decided that an "Islamic rebuttal of godless communist Soviets" was a potent recruiting campaign for that war. Pakistani generals, Mr. Zia et al., figured they'd co-opt the idea since it seemed to work so well in Afghanistan. The fact that the army needed to use Islam as a recruiting tool, and that mere Pakistaniat was not enough, shows a failure of Pakistani civil society. After all, armies in most countries manage to recruit people by appealing to national patriotism without having to invoke religion.

Finally, to take muse's example of drug trafficking, it's a very good analogy. The US is at war with Mexican and Colombian drug lords. It is not at war with Mexico, Colombia, or their people. We accept that Arab (and Iranian) individuals are funding this cancer of extremism. Some of these individuals may be connected to the governments (just as high ranking government officials are connected to the drug lords), but we still must remain careful not to portray this as a campaign against Arabs or Iranians as a people or as countries. Ultimately, as people point out, it is our responsibility to keep an eye on what is taught within our schools and mosques.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Hazaraz (Shia Pakistanis in Blachistan) trusts Army more than anyone; they demanded handing over Balochistan to Army for their safety: This is a big slap on faces of the @$$holes who have came up with this thread and misinformation.

And the sanest response in the entire thread

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Unbelievable how people can be obsessed with KSA.

DONT take it the wrong way
(just like no Muslim should take blame for Al Qaeda)

but we have to share the responsibility in the making of this beast

I said we
by we I mean

Saudis and Pakistanis
and in Pakistan we are already very open and critical about our Army, our secret agency, our sectarian clergy and our gulible public

we have been living in denial and we have lost over 40,000 people and the terrorists who only targeted shias before now target everyone but always return to their favourite obligation to kill shias

we cant escape the fact about the origin of the 11 hijakers of 911, we cant ignore the fact about the flow of funds from middle east
if we the Pakistanis can have insiders who are at sensitive positions and helping terrorists in attacking then there are also people in the Middle east who are acting against the wishes of their Kings and secretly funding the goons in our country

there is no way we can sugar coat it
I know it hurts noble, nice honest, reasonable and decent human beings like yourself and many many more Arabs but repeateldy at highest levels the UAE and KSA officals have been presented with solid evidences including bank transactions that are finding their way to the terrorists.

we the Pakistanis take the major blame, lets say 90% and we have a tumour but that tumour has an outside source.
and the path leads to my dearest and dearest Arab brothers who themselves have suffered at the hands of these lunatics


I wont say that its the official policy of UAE and kingdom of Saudi Arabia to destroy Pakistan and help the groups that have have sworn to kill the Arab leadership and cease power but... there are elements within KSA and UAE at very prominent positions who are too dangerous to be touched

SO

we bleed and we bleed and we bleed more. in this chaos, a Fiqh difference which was only confined to calling someone misguided has mutated into a Taqfiri fatwa which demands the "faithful" to not even spare an unborn child, young or old, man or woman and slay them all in the name of Islam.

just like the 1979 Iranian revolution brought its bag of unwanted gifts in Pakistan, so did the reactionary material from Arabian brothers during Gen Zia era who wanted to be the ruler of Pakistan forever and this radicalisation helped his policy
had he lived , he would have kept a lid on it I think he was very effective leader and didnt let his dogs forget their place but the leadership crises afterwords meant that these people became far more stronger than the state.

you and I both know that there are some elements in middle east who sympathise with Al Qaeda and Akhwan Al Muslimeen and they see the current Arab leadership as a hurdle and they would resort to violence if they find the time is right

in Jordan they are already making some tentative moves, they might be very holy and innocent looking but what they have in the bag for next generations might be devastating.


in the end

when we blame KSA

we do so on the bases of all the leaks and all the confessions and all the proofs provided to us by own people, the terrorists and the Americans who time and again say that UAE and KSA are acting like the Cash houses for International Islamic terrorism (whether its with or without the tacit approval of the Arab leadership is debatable, I am of the view that they are not involved) but we are still bleeding nonetheless


may Allah have Mercy on us all and rid us all the evils

 

[Jango]

@nuclearpak .......

And...?

I have never refuted the point that intel agencies and the military and government have a hand in creating and supporting these groups in some point of their history, but your opinion that these attacks happen through full collusion and support of the intel agencies and Army is absolutely BS. Had that been the case, we wouldn't have been sending Captains and Majors and other officers and JCO's into hot-spots and mosques and madrassahs to do recce, and we wouldn't be getting our people killed in these ops. Intel agencies wouldn't be giving out warnings to provincial governments and other places if they had been wanting these attacks to happen.

I think you need to use past tense for Army's support of these groups rather than present. Just like we did this stuff with the Taliban sometime.

Then add the Arab support to these groups and PML, and you get this.

Just like you are absolutely blinded by hate against PML and love of PTI, you are blinded by hate against Army. Some criticisms are justified, some are not.

 

[Hyperion]

PERFECT REPLY. WE CAN NOT HAVE BLIND SUPPORT FOR ANYONE, NOT EVEN PTI, ANYMORE. NO MORE BEING OBLIVIOUS, EVERYONE HAS TO STAND UP TO SCRUTINY.

1. Army as an institution did a HUGE boo-boo, however it's no longer actively involved. Maybe couple Arab and Ummah loonies in there. They need to be weeded out and exterminated.

2. From last reports in, Arabs are still actively involved to contain Iranians AT ANY PRICE. They need to be paid in same coin. A collective strategy is required how to deal with them. They are a MUCH LARGER threat than India.

3. PMLN - Most definitely haven't given up their pro-Arab stance, they need to become more loyal to the land. This is one mainstream party that poses the biggest existential risk to Pakistan in the long run. ISI needs to take care of it, as ISI was the culprit which created it. Don't **** with me, I am well aware of the safe houses in Chacklala where they were created with tender love.

And...?

I have never refuted the point that intel agencies and the military and government have a hand in creating and supporting these groups in some point of their history, but your opinion that these attacks happen through full collusion and support of the intel agencies and Army is absolutely BS.

I think you need to use past tense for Army's support of these groups rather than present. Just like we did this stuff with the Taliban sometime.

Then add the Arab support to these groups and PML, and you get this.

Just like you are absolutely blinded by hate against PML and love of PTI, you are blinded by hate against Army. Some criticisms are justified, some are not.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Hazara killing could have been a message to Pakistan from Saudis to "watch it" with Iran.

Saudis consider Asif Zardari as shia and Iran pleaser and he is neither. his relations with Iran are as good ( if not worse) as were of Zia, Nawaz Sherif , Musharraf or Benazir.
the message can be even from Americans as well, who knows

or I would say just our own dogs who have gone wild and fearless and biting back the master because they have remained unchecked for decades

if Indeed KSA as a national official policy does that then it will loose the best friend it has which has always come running to help it. such actions can further tilt Pakistan towards Iran and that would be a total shame

even during Iran Iraq war when Zia was the president we kept a neutral stance so such alleged punishment by KSA will be more harmful to itself in the longer run.

 

[doppelganger]

They are a MUCH LARGER threat than India.

Why do you look at us as a threat to you? We gave you land for your country. We have never attacked you. We have never done bomb blasts or 26/11 type attacks on your soil. All of which you have done to us. Yet you say we are the threat? Why bhai? Why?