Pakistan rubbishes Shakeel Afridis ISI tirade

[Icarus]

He didn't swear an oath to the State, so it's not up to the State to judge, but the people. Otherwise Pakistanis are mere subjects of the State, not sovereign themselves. They must be born, live, and die according to the orders of bureaucrats, burdens they must bear by birth, not by choice.

You are totally oblivious to eastern lifestyles and are thus in no position to speak with such authority about how Pakistanis spend their life. Asian culture revolves around loyalty and honour, loyalty to family, clan, faith, race and country. There's no oath, it's in our blood, remember the Japanese in World War II? They were conscripts, not volunteers and yet their dedication and loyalty to their nation did not falter until death had the last say. So now you understand why it is such a big deal that he collaborated with the CIA, and he also withheld information about the world's most wanted man from Pakistani authorities, that makes him an accessory to terrorism.

 

[Solomon2]

You are totally oblivious to eastern lifestyles and are thus in no position to speak with such authority about how Pakistanis spend their life. Asian culture revolves around loyalty and honour, loyalty to family, clan, faith, race and country.

If I didn't believe I was in some way "oblivious" about Asian cultures I wouldn't spend my time reading and learning about them.

There's no oath, it's in our blood, remember the Japanese in World War II? They were conscripts, not volunteers -

who all swore oaths to serve the Emperor.

u understand why it is such a big deal that he collaborated with the CIA, and he also withheld information about the world's most wanted man from Pakistani authorities, that makes him an accessory to terrorism.

Or else Afridi's story that the authorities are the accessories to terrorism and he's the one fighting them is true, which would mean withholding information from them was the patriotic thing to do. He never got to make that case in front of a jury, did he?

 

[Jango]

He didn't swear an oath to the State, so it's not up to the State to judge, but the people. Otherwise Pakistanis are mere subjects of the State, not sovereign themselves. They must be born, live, and die according to the orders of bureaucrats, burdens they must bear by birth, not by choice.

As a holder of a Pakistani passport, it is his moral obligation and duty to protect his state, and have allegiance to it.

Nobody is hostage to a few bureaucrats, or to the elected representatives, but to the nation of Pakistan. Not to a person, or party, but to the country.

When a person applies for a British or American passport, they have to take alot of oaths as well. You may not have had to do it because you were born in US, but that doesn't exempt you from those duties.

You still didn't answer my question though. Do you admit he did nothing wrong. If so, explicitly state.

Add the fact that he was a Pashtun, and pashtuns are known as the most patriotic people you will find, fight to the death for their honor and nation.

 

[Solomon2]

Icky, you're a member of a very powerful institution in your country, but perhaps you don't grasp that too much power in the hands of a single unaccountable institution - no matter how loyal its members are to duty and superiors - is a bad thing.

As a holder of a Pakistani passport, it is his moral obligation and duty to protect his state, and have allegiance to it.

How does the passport thing work?

When a person applies for a British or American passport, they have to take alot of oaths as well.

Not in my recall.

You still didn't answer my question though. Do you admit he did nothing wrong. If so, explicitly state.

Irrelevant. The point is a corrupt and immoral process.

Add the fact that he was a Pashtun, and pashtuns are known as the most patriotic people you will find, fight to the death for their honor and nation.

Ah, the code of Pushtunwali. Why does that add in to the process of a treason case?

 

[Jango]

Irrelevant. The point is a corrupt and immoral process.

A corrupt and immoral process against a corrupt and immoral man.

Fact is, he took money for doing work for the CIA, while being a Pakistani citizen.

Then the damage he did to the polio drive.

And then there were also cases registered against him for illegal surgeries in FATA. His lawyer states that the FCR trial was for illegal surgery, not for treason.

 

[Icarus]

If I didn't believe I was in some way "oblivious" about Asian cultures I wouldn't spend my time reading and learning about them.

There's a huge difference between what you read in books and what you experience in real life. My concept about British was that they would be very smart but snobbish people who would be very offended by my habit of wearing Shalwar Kameez, but that was not the case. I also believed that the Germans are very cold people, but they actually turned out to be very hospitable.

who all swore oaths to serve the Emperor.

Without conviction, is an oath worth anything? Didn't Faisal Shehzad take an oath to defend the American constitution?

Or else Afridi's story that the authorities are the accessories to terrorism and he's the one fighting them is true, which would mean withholding information from them was the patriotic thing to do. He never got to make that case in front of a jury, did he?

It's quite clear now that the interview was a hoax, I have some friends who are journalists and trust me, when they think they are scoring a scoop, they always have proof to back it up. If this journalists scored an interview with Afridi and didn't record it, then I can confidently say that this guy is the king of dumbasses.

Icky, you're a member of a very powerful institution in your country, but perhaps you don't grasp that too much power in the hands of a single unaccountable institution - no matter how loyal its members are to duty and superiors - is a bad thing.

1) The ISI is accountable to the DG ISI and the Prime Minister, besides being under scrutiny of the courts.
2) It is not as powerful as you guys believe it to be, if you poll this forum about how many people were scrutinized by the ISI at some point in their life, the answer will be zero.
3) ISI members are all in line with national policies.
4) If there was a beef between the ISI and America, I wouldn't have been asked to lend my services to ISAF and CENTCOM.

 

[VCheng]

A Well Placed Pawn Can Take out the King ... . . Remember that.

Not that I had forgotten that pearl of wisdom, but your reminder is duly noted.

Of course, it must be an exceptionally well placed and qualified pawn to achieve that kill. Many other pawns would be higher placed than what you seem to perceive for your favored "pawn" of course. You would be well advised to keep those qualifications in mind too.

 

[Solomon2]

There's a huge difference between what you read in books and what you experience in real life.

That's right, but how is it relevant?

Without conviction, is an oath worth anything?

It makes you legally liable in a way you were not before.

Didn't Faisal Shehzad take an oath to defend the American constitution?

He's a naturalized citizen? In that case he took on the burden willingly; it's not something forced upon him by birth or bureaucratic caprice.

It's quite clear now that the interview was a hoax -

I'm not going to help you figure out how it was done.

1) The ISI is accountable to the DG ISI and the Prime Minister, besides being under scrutiny of the courts.

I don't believe this is the case in practice. B. Bhutto didn't exert that control. Zardari & Gilani tried and 26/11 tied their hands, freezing the reform process. (Indeed, I've long believed that was the reason for 26/11 in the first place.) The new PM has enough skeletons in the closet that the tables are turned and he might as well be another ISI puppet, yes?

4) If there was a beef between the ISI and America, I wouldn't have been asked to lend my services to ISAF and CENTCOM.

Tactical cooperation in the absence of a shared strategic objective is a sure recipe for conflict between "allies", is that not so?

 

[Jango]

In that case he took on the burden willingly; it's not something forced upon him by birth or bureaucratic caprice.

Oh, so Mr Afridi was in constant pressure of the Pakistani state since his birth, poor man then. Living in a jail with the name of Pakistan! Poor chap. Being forced into slavery of the state since birth.

 

[Icarus]

That's right, but how is it relevant?

You have read about Asian cultures but have you actually ever experienced them?

It makes you legally liable in a way you were not before.

No, it just means you uttered a few white lies that hardly changed anything.

He's a naturalized citizen? In that case he took on the burden willingly; it's not something forced upon him by birth or bureaucratic caprice.

Indeed he did, but my point was trying to give an example of what taking an oath without conviction means.........nothing....

I'm not going to help you figure out how it was done.

You don't need to, I have access to all the telephone records of that jail and guess what, no international calls were made in the last TWO years! As cell service is jammed on premises, the only other way an interview could have been conducted was through telepathy............Is that a requirement for a job at Fox?

I don't believe this is the case in practice. B. Bhutto didn't exert that control. Zardari & Gilani tried and 26/11 tied their hands, freezing the reform process. (Indeed, I've long believed that was the reason for 26/11 in the first place.) The new PM has enough skeletons in the closet that the tables are turned and he might as well be another ISI puppet, yes?

Fu**ing WOW! And we are supposed to be the conspiracy theorists? You mean to tell me that the ISI would risk a war with India to avoid the PM from scrutinizing them? Wow, and then you have the cheeks to make fun of those idiots who claim that all Jews were on holiday on 9/11!

Tactical cooperation in the absence of a shared strategic objective is a sure recipe for conflict between "allies", is that not so?

The shared strategic objective was never met by the American, as I have said before, our men are still manning border posts on the Bajaur-Kunnar Border where they were supposed to link up with the Americans in 2009! Operation Sherdil and Lionheart were supposed to culminate in a hammer and anvil effort to trap Taliban from both sides and then exert enough firepower to secure their surrender. The Americans never made it out of their bases and we cleared all of Bajaur, as a result over a thousand militants fled from Bajaur into Kunnar and are now attacking Pakistan from across the border. The Americans failed and they blame it on us, truth be told, it's just playing patsy. This is all a game to the Americans, they'll be gone in a couple of years and we'll be left with the mess, just like in 1989.

 

[Solomon2]

You have read about Asian cultures but have you actually ever experienced them?

Like Obama did, living his childhood in Indonesia? No. Care to clue me in as to what I'm missing? For I'm not going to travel to Pakistan just to be served up as food for jihadis.

Fu**ing WOW! And we are supposed to be the conspiracy theorists? You mean to tell me that the ISI would risk a war with India to avoid the PM from scrutinizing them?

He was trying to reign in the ISI before and the prospect of sudden war with India froze the process. It was riskier for the ISI to risk a war with India than submit to civilian oversight so yes, I think the ISI would and could risk such a thing.

The shared strategic objective was never met by the American, as I have said before, our men are still manning border posts on the Bajaur-Kunnar Border where they were supposed to link up with the Americans in 2009! Operation Sherdil and Lionheart were supposed to culminate in a hammer and anvil effort to trap Taliban from both sides and then exert enough firepower to secure their surrender.

News to me. Can you back up your story?

This is all a game to the Americans, they'll be gone in a couple of years and we'll be left with the mess, just like in 1989.

As I recall the ISI was happy with the idea of acting on its own in Afghanistan without the prospect of an American leash yanking them about. What a mess you and your superiors made of it!

 

[Icarus]

Like Obama did, living his childhood in Indonesia? No. Care to clue me in as to what I'm missing? For I'm not going to travel to Pakistan just to be served up as food for jihadis.

Technically you stand a greater chance of being raped in South Africa than being involved in a terrorist related incident in Pakistan, but we'll get to that later. What you are missing, is pretty much everything you post about, the attitude of the people, their outlook on life, their beliefs, the role of law enforcement agencies in day to day affairs, among other things.

He was trying to reign in the ISI before and the prospect of sudden war with India froze the process. It was riskier for the ISI to risk a war with India than submit to civilian oversight so yes, I think the ISI would and could risk such a thing.

In that case, I have a serious doubt about your sense of proportion, something this preposterous deserves to be posted in the Stupid and Funny Section. To believe that the ISI would risk a war with India to avoid civilian scrutiny is laughable at best.

News to me. Can you back up your story?

You are talking to a witness, ask away......
Here's a news piece just in case: http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-n...v-2008/Operation-Lionheart-launched-at-border

As I recall the ISI was happy with the idea of acting on its own in Afghanistan without the prospect of an American leash yanking them about. What a mess you and your superiors made of it!

The ISI needed to cap off the civil war in Afghanistan so that the 8 million refugees could be sent home. We all saw what the Americans were in for, if you were genuinely concerned for the Afghans, you would have never left them in the rot that you had transformed their country into to avenge Vietnam. However, karma screws all in the end, you and us we are both suffering as a result of our mistakes where Islamic Fundamentalists that we once trained with YOUR money are now attacking us both, you guys are also witnessing Vietnam 2.0 but this time, instead of the NVA, you guys have a ragtag militia bogging down the American war machine.

 

[VCheng]

........... Islamic Fundamentalists that we once trained with YOUR money are now attacking us both............

What a succinct well-worded summary!

The only thing I would is add is that the exposure and risks to Pakistan are manifold greater than those posed to USA by this state of affairs.

 

[Icarus]

What a succinct well-worded summary!

The only thing I would is add is that the exposure and risks to Pakistan are manifold greater than those posed to USA by this state of affairs.

Agreed, as I said before, America will leave the region in a few years where as we will be left to bear the fruits of this failed Afghan campaign like in the past. I can only wish that the Afghan regime is able to stand firm against the Taliban or else we will have to devote a significant military strength to our western border for the foreseeable future.

 

[VCheng]

Agreed, as I said before, America will leave the region in a few years where as we will be left to bear the fruits of this failed Afghan campaign like in the past. I can only wish that the Afghan regime is able to stand firm against the Taliban or else we will have to devote a significant military strength to our western border for the foreseeable future.

This is not an "or else" situation. Pakistan would do well to plan on devoting significant resources to its western border for years and years to come. There is no doubt about it. What would be the result of increased demand for resources and the pressure on personnel is yet to be seen.