Irfan Baloch
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what do your sources say about targets of the latest drone strikes did Hakim Ullah really die? (again)?
Pakistan Rejected CIA Request for Drone Strike in January
- Thread starter VelocuR
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what do your sources say about targets of the latest drone strikes did Hakim Ullah really die? (again)?
VCheng
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I think it is advantageous at the moment to let the situation remain murky for a while longer.
Fence mending: Military brass gathers at Presidency
ISLAMABAD: One can only assume that the apparently frosty relations between the government and the military have started thawing.
In a telling move on Friday, the military brass, including Chief of Army Staff (COAS) Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, attended a ceremony in the Presidency where President Asif Ali Zardari conferred the award of Nishan-i-Imtiaz (military) on Naval Chief Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila.
The government is at odds with the military over the Memogate scandal as the army chief claims the controversial memo is a reality while the government calls it a myth.
Currently, a high-powered judicial commission is investigating the matter and the man who set off the controversy, Mansoor Ijaz, is likely to appear before it sometime this month.
Analysts believe that holding Admiral Sandila’s decoration ceremony at the Presidency was a calculated move and was used by the government to send out a message that there was no confrontation or friction between the military establishment and the government.
Insiders in the ruling Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) also claimed that the presence of army chief General Kayani, who had recently skipped several similar functions, was a proof that backchannel efforts to normalise working relations between the government and the military had started bearing fruit.
(Read: That fractured relationship)
Published in The Express Tribune, January 21st, 2012.
ISLAMABAD: One can only assume that the apparently frosty relations between the government and the military have started thawing.
In a telling move on Friday, the military brass, including Chief of Army Staff (COAS) Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, attended a ceremony in the Presidency where President Asif Ali Zardari conferred the award of Nishan-i-Imtiaz (military) on Naval Chief Admiral Mohammad Asif Sandila.
The government is at odds with the military over the Memogate scandal as the army chief claims the controversial memo is a reality while the government calls it a myth.
Currently, a high-powered judicial commission is investigating the matter and the man who set off the controversy, Mansoor Ijaz, is likely to appear before it sometime this month.
Analysts believe that holding Admiral Sandila’s decoration ceremony at the Presidency was a calculated move and was used by the government to send out a message that there was no confrontation or friction between the military establishment and the government.
Insiders in the ruling Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) also claimed that the presence of army chief General Kayani, who had recently skipped several similar functions, was a proof that backchannel efforts to normalise working relations between the government and the military had started bearing fruit.
(Read: That fractured relationship)
Published in The Express Tribune, January 21st, 2012.
‘Pakistan to allow US trainers, not drones’
WASHINGTON: US military trainers will be invited back into Pakistan “as early as April or May”, but the nation has ruled out allowing CIA drones back into the country, American Fox News reported late on Friday night.
Relations between the two nations have been at an all-time low since 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed in air strikes by Nato in November.
A committee of the Pakistani parliament is reviewing the nature of the country’s relationship with the US, and politicians are expected on Jan 30 to deliver a list of conditions for cooperation to resume.
The stipulations will include no covert CIA or military operations on the ground in Pakistan, and no unauthorised incursions into its airspace. Drones, which are the CIA’s biggest weapon against militants hiding in the tribal belt dividing Afghanistan and Pakistan, “can never return”, a senior Pakistani official told Fox News.
“They will never be allowed back, at Shamsi or anywhere else,” the official added, referring to the base from which many of the unmanned aerial vehicles were deployed before the Nato attack in November.
In return, Pakistan would allow back US military trainers, including special forces teams, and a resumption of close cooperation with the CIA in targeting militants who use the Pakistani side of the border as a safe haven and breeding ground for extremism.
It would also reopen the Torkham and Chaman border crossings into Afghanistan, which have been closed to Nato supply convoys since the attack.
“After this is presented to the Americans, a lot could happen very quickly,” the senior official told the TV channel.
Islamabad also would reopen its doors to high-level US diplomats after an embarrassing snub this week to President Obama’s special envoy to the region, Marc Grossman, who was denied his request to visit Pakistan in the middle of his tour of South Asia.
Pakistan says it wants working conditions with Washington that provide “respect for the nation, its sovereignty — both its soil and airspace — and equal terms of cooperation”. Government members have said publicly that there has never been equality in the relationship.
“We understand the government of Pakistan is still working on its review of US-Pakistan relations, and we have not yet received a formal report from the government,” Pentagon spokesman Capt John Kirby said in an emailed statement.
“Decisions about the level of Pakistani commitment to our military relationship are obviously theirs to make, and we respect that.”
“We continue to desire a close military relationship with Pakistan. We both have a fundamental interest in cooperation, in eliminating Al Qaeda’s ability to operate from Pakistan, and in ensuring a stable Afghanistan and stable region.”
Pakistan, especially its military, has been reeling since US forces killed Osama Bin Laden in a raid in May.
The raid, which sparked nationwide protests and stoked further anti-Americanism, and civilian casualties caused by drone attacks are considered by Pakistan to be flagrant violations of its sovereignty by an ‘arrogant’ American government.
Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said this week that ties “are on hold until we start re-engaging”, but Pakistan is now motivated by the US elections to move forward swiftly in rebuilding trust between the countries. Islamabad fears that if foundation stones are not laid before presidential campaigning begins in earnest in the summer, it will not be able to renegotiate with Washington until the middle of next year.
But the senior official suggested there might be a benefit to waiting.
“We would prefer it if there was a Republican government again,” he said. —Dawn monitoring desk
Western propaganda.
Let's wait for Pakistan recommendation decision outcome soon.
WASHINGTON: US military trainers will be invited back into Pakistan “as early as April or May”, but the nation has ruled out allowing CIA drones back into the country, American Fox News reported late on Friday night.
Relations between the two nations have been at an all-time low since 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed in air strikes by Nato in November.
A committee of the Pakistani parliament is reviewing the nature of the country’s relationship with the US, and politicians are expected on Jan 30 to deliver a list of conditions for cooperation to resume.
The stipulations will include no covert CIA or military operations on the ground in Pakistan, and no unauthorised incursions into its airspace. Drones, which are the CIA’s biggest weapon against militants hiding in the tribal belt dividing Afghanistan and Pakistan, “can never return”, a senior Pakistani official told Fox News.
“They will never be allowed back, at Shamsi or anywhere else,” the official added, referring to the base from which many of the unmanned aerial vehicles were deployed before the Nato attack in November.
In return, Pakistan would allow back US military trainers, including special forces teams, and a resumption of close cooperation with the CIA in targeting militants who use the Pakistani side of the border as a safe haven and breeding ground for extremism.
It would also reopen the Torkham and Chaman border crossings into Afghanistan, which have been closed to Nato supply convoys since the attack.
“After this is presented to the Americans, a lot could happen very quickly,” the senior official told the TV channel.
Islamabad also would reopen its doors to high-level US diplomats after an embarrassing snub this week to President Obama’s special envoy to the region, Marc Grossman, who was denied his request to visit Pakistan in the middle of his tour of South Asia.
Pakistan says it wants working conditions with Washington that provide “respect for the nation, its sovereignty — both its soil and airspace — and equal terms of cooperation”. Government members have said publicly that there has never been equality in the relationship.
“We understand the government of Pakistan is still working on its review of US-Pakistan relations, and we have not yet received a formal report from the government,” Pentagon spokesman Capt John Kirby said in an emailed statement.
“Decisions about the level of Pakistani commitment to our military relationship are obviously theirs to make, and we respect that.”
“We continue to desire a close military relationship with Pakistan. We both have a fundamental interest in cooperation, in eliminating Al Qaeda’s ability to operate from Pakistan, and in ensuring a stable Afghanistan and stable region.”
Pakistan, especially its military, has been reeling since US forces killed Osama Bin Laden in a raid in May.
The raid, which sparked nationwide protests and stoked further anti-Americanism, and civilian casualties caused by drone attacks are considered by Pakistan to be flagrant violations of its sovereignty by an ‘arrogant’ American government.
Pakistan’s Foreign Minister Hina Rabbani Khar said this week that ties “are on hold until we start re-engaging”, but Pakistan is now motivated by the US elections to move forward swiftly in rebuilding trust between the countries. Islamabad fears that if foundation stones are not laid before presidential campaigning begins in earnest in the summer, it will not be able to renegotiate with Washington until the middle of next year.
But the senior official suggested there might be a benefit to waiting.
“We would prefer it if there was a Republican government again,” he said. —Dawn monitoring desk
Western propaganda.
Let's wait for Pakistan recommendation decision outcome soon.
hembo
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How Pakistan helps the US drone campaign
By Reuters
Published: January 22, 201
Cooperation may be more extensive than previously believed.
___________________
ISLAMABAD: The death of a senior al Qaeda leader in a US drone strike in Pakistan’s tribal badlands, the first strike in almost two months, signalled that the US-Pakistan intelligence partnership is still in operation despite political tensions.
The Jan 10 strike – and its follow-up two days later – were joint operations, a Pakistani security source based in the tribal areas told Reuters.
They made use of Pakistani “spotters” on the ground and demonstrated a level of coordination that both sides have sought to downplay since tensions erupted in January 2011 with the killing of two Pakistanis by a CIA contractor in Lahore.
“Our working relationship is a bit different from our political relationship,” the source told Reuters, requesting anonymity. “It’s more productive.”
US and Pakistani sources told Reuters that the target of the Jan 10 attack was Aslam Awan, a Pakistani national from Abbottabad, the town where Osama bin Laden was killed last May by a US commando team.
They said he was targeted in a strike by a US-operated drone directed at what news reports said was a compound near the town of Miranshah in the border province of North Waziristan.
That strike broke an undeclared eight-week hiatus in attacks by the armed, unmanned drones that patrol the tribal areas and are a key weapon in US President Barack Obama’s counter-terrorism strategy.
The sources described Awan, also known by the nom-de-guerre Abdullah Khorasani, as a significant figure in the remaining core leadership of al Qaeda, which US officials say has been sharply reduced by the drone campaign. Most of the drone attacks are conducted as part of a clandestine CIA operation.
The Pakistani source, who helped target Awan, could not confirm that he was killed, but the US official said he was. European officials said Awan had spent time in London and had ties to British extremists before returning to Pakistan.
The source, who says he runs a network of spotters primarily in North and South Waziristan, described for the first time how US-Pakistani cooperation on strikes works, with his Pakistani agents keeping close tabs on suspected militants and building a pattern of their movements and associations.
“We run a network of human intelligence sources,” he said. “Separately, we monitor their cell and satellite phones.
“Thirdly, we run joint monitoring operations with our US and UK friends,” he added, noting that cooperation with British intelligence was also extensive.
Pakistani and US intelligence officers, using their own sources, hash out a joint “priority of targets lists” in regular face-to-face meetings, he said.
“Al Qaeda is our top priority,” he said.
He declined to say where the meetings take place.
Once a target is identified and “marked,” his network coordinates with drone operators on the US side. He said the United States bases drones outside Kabul, likely at Bagram airfield about 25 miles (40 km) north of the capital.
From spotting to firing a missile “hardly takes about two to three hours”, he said.
Drone strikes a sore point with Pakistan
It was impossible to verify the source’s claims and American experts, who decline to discuss the drone programme, say the Pakistanis’ cooperation has been less helpful in the past.
US officials have complained that when information on drone strikes was shared with the Pakistanis beforehand, the targets were often tipped off, allowing them to escape.
Drone strikes have been a sore point with the public and Pakistani politicians, who describe them as violations of sovereignty that produce unacceptable civilian casualties.
The last strike before January had been on Nov 16, 10 days before 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed in what Nato says was an inadvertent cross-border attack on a Pakistani border post.
That incident sent US-Pakistan relations into the deepest crisis since Islamabad joined the US-led war on militancy following the Sept 11, 2001 attacks. On Thursday, Pakistani foreign minister Hina Rabbani Khar said ties were “on hold” while Pakistan completes a review of the alliance.
The United States sees Pakistan as critical to its efforts to wind down the war in Afghanistan, where US-led Nato forces are battling a Taliban insurgency.
Some US and Pakistani officials say that both sides are trying to improve ties. As part of this process, a US official said, it is possible that some permanent changes could be made in the drone programme which could slow the pace of attacks.
The security source said very few innocent people had been killed in the strikes. When a militant takes shelter in a house or compound which is then bombed, “the ones who are harbouring him, they are equally responsible”, he said.
“When they stay at a host house, they (the hosts) obviously have sympathies for these guys.”
He denied that Pakistan helped target civilians.
“If … others say innocents have been targeted, it’s not true,” he said. “We never target civilians or innocents.”
The New America Foundation policy institute says that of 283 reported strikes from 2004 to Nov 16, 2011, between 1,717 and 2,680 people were killed. Between 293 and 471 were thought to be civilians – approximately 17 percent of those killed.
The Brookings Institution, however, says civilian deaths are high, reporting in 2009 that “for every militant killed, 10 or more civilians also died.” Pakistan’s interior minister, Rehman Malik, also said in April 2011 that “the majority of victims are innocent civilians”.
Still, despite its public stance, Pakistan has quietly supported the drone programme since Obama ramped up air strikes when he took office in 2009 and even asked for more flights.
According to a US State Department cable published by anti-secrecy organisation WikiLeaks, Pakistan’s chief of army staff General Ashfaq Kayani in February 2008 asked Admiral William J. Fallon, then-commander of US Central Command, for increased surveillance and round-the-clock drone coverage over North and South Waziristan.
The security source said Pakistan’s powerful spy agency, the Directorate of Inter-Services Intelligence, also was supportive of the strikes, albeit privately.
By Reuters
Published: January 22, 201
Cooperation may be more extensive than previously believed.
___________________
ISLAMABAD: The death of a senior al Qaeda leader in a US drone strike in Pakistan’s tribal badlands, the first strike in almost two months, signalled that the US-Pakistan intelligence partnership is still in operation despite political tensions.
The Jan 10 strike – and its follow-up two days later – were joint operations, a Pakistani security source based in the tribal areas told Reuters.
They made use of Pakistani “spotters” on the ground and demonstrated a level of coordination that both sides have sought to downplay since tensions erupted in January 2011 with the killing of two Pakistanis by a CIA contractor in Lahore.
“Our working relationship is a bit different from our political relationship,” the source told Reuters, requesting anonymity. “It’s more productive.”
US and Pakistani sources told Reuters that the target of the Jan 10 attack was Aslam Awan, a Pakistani national from Abbottabad, the town where Osama bin Laden was killed last May by a US commando team.
They said he was targeted in a strike by a US-operated drone directed at what news reports said was a compound near the town of Miranshah in the border province of North Waziristan.
That strike broke an undeclared eight-week hiatus in attacks by the armed, unmanned drones that patrol the tribal areas and are a key weapon in US President Barack Obama’s counter-terrorism strategy.
The sources described Awan, also known by the nom-de-guerre Abdullah Khorasani, as a significant figure in the remaining core leadership of al Qaeda, which US officials say has been sharply reduced by the drone campaign. Most of the drone attacks are conducted as part of a clandestine CIA operation.
The Pakistani source, who helped target Awan, could not confirm that he was killed, but the US official said he was. European officials said Awan had spent time in London and had ties to British extremists before returning to Pakistan.
The source, who says he runs a network of spotters primarily in North and South Waziristan, described for the first time how US-Pakistani cooperation on strikes works, with his Pakistani agents keeping close tabs on suspected militants and building a pattern of their movements and associations.
“We run a network of human intelligence sources,” he said. “Separately, we monitor their cell and satellite phones.
“Thirdly, we run joint monitoring operations with our US and UK friends,” he added, noting that cooperation with British intelligence was also extensive.
Pakistani and US intelligence officers, using their own sources, hash out a joint “priority of targets lists” in regular face-to-face meetings, he said.
“Al Qaeda is our top priority,” he said.
He declined to say where the meetings take place.
Once a target is identified and “marked,” his network coordinates with drone operators on the US side. He said the United States bases drones outside Kabul, likely at Bagram airfield about 25 miles (40 km) north of the capital.
From spotting to firing a missile “hardly takes about two to three hours”, he said.
Drone strikes a sore point with Pakistan
It was impossible to verify the source’s claims and American experts, who decline to discuss the drone programme, say the Pakistanis’ cooperation has been less helpful in the past.
US officials have complained that when information on drone strikes was shared with the Pakistanis beforehand, the targets were often tipped off, allowing them to escape.
Drone strikes have been a sore point with the public and Pakistani politicians, who describe them as violations of sovereignty that produce unacceptable civilian casualties.
The last strike before January had been on Nov 16, 10 days before 24 Pakistani soldiers were killed in what Nato says was an inadvertent cross-border attack on a Pakistani border post.
That incident sent US-Pakistan relations into the deepest crisis since Islamabad joined the US-led war on militancy following the Sept 11, 2001 attacks. On Thursday, Pakistani foreign minister Hina Rabbani Khar said ties were “on hold” while Pakistan completes a review of the alliance.
The United States sees Pakistan as critical to its efforts to wind down the war in Afghanistan, where US-led Nato forces are battling a Taliban insurgency.
Some US and Pakistani officials say that both sides are trying to improve ties. As part of this process, a US official said, it is possible that some permanent changes could be made in the drone programme which could slow the pace of attacks.
The security source said very few innocent people had been killed in the strikes. When a militant takes shelter in a house or compound which is then bombed, “the ones who are harbouring him, they are equally responsible”, he said.
“When they stay at a host house, they (the hosts) obviously have sympathies for these guys.”
He denied that Pakistan helped target civilians.
“If … others say innocents have been targeted, it’s not true,” he said. “We never target civilians or innocents.”
The New America Foundation policy institute says that of 283 reported strikes from 2004 to Nov 16, 2011, between 1,717 and 2,680 people were killed. Between 293 and 471 were thought to be civilians – approximately 17 percent of those killed.
The Brookings Institution, however, says civilian deaths are high, reporting in 2009 that “for every militant killed, 10 or more civilians also died.” Pakistan’s interior minister, Rehman Malik, also said in April 2011 that “the majority of victims are innocent civilians”.
Still, despite its public stance, Pakistan has quietly supported the drone programme since Obama ramped up air strikes when he took office in 2009 and even asked for more flights.
According to a US State Department cable published by anti-secrecy organisation WikiLeaks, Pakistan’s chief of army staff General Ashfaq Kayani in February 2008 asked Admiral William J. Fallon, then-commander of US Central Command, for increased surveillance and round-the-clock drone coverage over North and South Waziristan.
The security source said Pakistan’s powerful spy agency, the Directorate of Inter-Services Intelligence, also was supportive of the strikes, albeit privately.
graphican
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I don't buy this news.. this is only "Paving the path" for allowing Americans to start striking again. People in Pakistan are offended with these American attacks and if Pakistan Government wants to let Americans use drones again, they would have to earn some "acceptability" from the people before that. This news is exactly trying to do this.
FIRST - There is no way to know if a drone strike was really requested.
SECOND - We do not know if this request was actually refused.
THREE - WHY IS THIS BEING TOLD TO PEOPLE? Pakistan has stopped cooperating with USA on many fronts after border bombing but not all are made public. WHY THIS ONE?
FOUR - Link this news with the news of killing Hakimullah Mehsood which appeared few days ago. IDEA was to show drone strike as "benificial" and "rewarding" for the Pakistan + Make space in the heart of people to let more of such strikes happen. Now if you connect this news with this news that drone-strike was refused, this is an attempt to show that PAKISTAN IS IN CONTROL OF US DRONE STRIKES.
I reject this drama and its not half worthy to be accepted.
FIRST - There is no way to know if a drone strike was really requested.
SECOND - We do not know if this request was actually refused.
THREE - WHY IS THIS BEING TOLD TO PEOPLE? Pakistan has stopped cooperating with USA on many fronts after border bombing but not all are made public. WHY THIS ONE?
FOUR - Link this news with the news of killing Hakimullah Mehsood which appeared few days ago. IDEA was to show drone strike as "benificial" and "rewarding" for the Pakistan + Make space in the heart of people to let more of such strikes happen. Now if you connect this news with this news that drone-strike was refused, this is an attempt to show that PAKISTAN IS IN CONTROL OF US DRONE STRIKES.
I reject this drama and its not half worthy to be accepted.
Ark-Angel
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Dude Air Chief said that we can shoot down drones, all we need is permission from the government. This must be noted that Air Chief gave this statement after Prime Minister said that Pakistan don't have the technology to shoot down drones. Further more, VCAS Air Marshal (R) Shahid Lateef also said that PAF has got technology to shoot down the drones.
rubyjackass
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No Zardari cannot openly take his country to take US head on. Pakistan's economy is too fragile to risk such a measure. The best case scenario and a remedy for all this humiliation, is for PAF to bring down a drone without Zardari's permission. US will know every move of the president(they have too much information and too many sources). So if Zardari did not give out any orders and PAF brought down a drone, then Zardari will be forced to take credit for it(then later he can declare it as a part of a new policy to bring down every drone that violates Pakistan's sovereignty). And US will forgive him for that, because most of the times US diplomats forgive foreign rulers(especially friends) who play for the gallery under pressure. (You can see such examples in their declassified documents) So basically Zardari has to act like he is under pressure to support PAF to take every action against incoming drones. For this to happen, PAF has to bring down a drone without political authorization. This can be done very easily under the pretext of an unidentified and unauthorized possible aircraft entering Pak's sovereign airspace.
Actually the above strategy is not even in Zardari's hands. If PAF takes the first step and attacks a drone, then the rest will follow automatically because:
a) The opportunity to take credit for hitting anything American is too attractive for any Pakistani government(especially for PPP and particularly for the 'puppet' Zardari at that).
b) If the government tries to censure PAF for such an act,a coup is the least they have to fear about. The country will be on fire.
So PAF can actually take steps unilaterally. The fact that they do not will suggest two possibilities, in the order of my rating of probability:
a) The PAF generals are in America's pockets.(a very strong allegation, I know. A better wording is 'They are under pressure from the US'). May be they don't want to loose American aid.
b) They have something to hide. Like may be the drones are still launched from Pakistani soil. This overlaps with point a).
c) They are too lazy or naive or just want to do their job(in this case, we need to ask them what the definition of job is) - basically not pro-active.
d) The government has given standing instructions(for what its worth. I mean the consensus is that Pak's government does not dare to give any orders to the Army. But I don't believe that.) to the Army, to not attack any US drones entering Pak's airspace.
Each of these possibilities is very bad and tragic for Pak in its own way. But, in the end, if some general in PAF desires so, it can 'restore' Pak's sovereignty simply by letting the dominoes fall and force the government into a policy of no-tolerance against breach of sovereignty.
Feel free to attack my post, especially the parts that you might feel are reaching the realm of fantasy.
rubyjackass
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Your fourth point was right on the money. I was going to link the two news pieces same way. I mean it is so clear that the propaganda is BS. The last time when Hakimullah was really thought to be dead by the Americans people(even some 'security analysts') were serious about it. This time they let is pass. The only ones that picked this news up are the Pakistani papers, with a half heart. Hakimullah did not even make a call to confirm he is alive(the last time it was a video). But some how 'sources confirmed' he is alive some two days later(I am surprised nobody from army needed a video as proof this time).
VCheng
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I think it is advantageous at the moment to let the situation remain murky for a while longer.
Like I said before, it is advantageous at the moment to let the situation remain murky for a while longer.
rubyjackass
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Advantageous for whom? If you mean that it is a tactic to make Hakimullah come out, thats very cheap. They could not find him when he himself came out to prove his life. If you mean to say that it is to threaten some low profile leader into submission, well, this was tried too. By now TTP must have adapted to this kind of tricks.
The day that happens I'll eat my shorts live on webcam for Pak Defence.
What's that well known phrase again, ahh... "All talk, no action".
Imran Khan
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CIA Request ???????
man kiyani is another yahya khan just wait when job will done we may wakeup
man kiyani is another yahya khan just wait when job will done we may wakeup
VCheng
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Would you like ketchup with the shorts?
Back on topic, we all can see realpolitik at work when we see it.
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