Pakistan protests India glacier tourism plan

[F.O.X]

Thankyou indians for showing the pakistani public that no matter how much mushy bends over
to accommodate you ,you will not move an inch on any issue relating to pakistan....
A true leadership standing up for whats good for its own country and not being bothered what mushy has to say.......please carry on making this idiot mushy look like a fool.

Cant you stop this, when ever you comment you comment against musharaf without any proof, & when we counter your comment you dont even bother to relply.
What do you know about kashmir, Siachin??

what do you know about Musharaf, the lone personality who guided Pakistan in the toughest times is Musharaf, The lone person who led Pakistani economy to one of the worlds fastest growing Economies is Musharaf, the lone Person who cared about the people of this country is Musharaf.
if you want to comment me on this you are welcomed.

Regards
Wilco

 

[Spring Onion]

Isn't it ironic that the country which donated a chunk of Kashmir to China is complaining about a glacier the size of a toothpick!!

The 5000sq land which was ceded to China under the 1963 Sino-border agreement, had an articel which is called Article six.

And article of the agreement mentioned "that the 'two parties have agreed that, after the settlement of Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan, the sovereign authority concerned will reopen negotiations with the government of People's Republic of China on the boundary, so as to sign a formal boundary treaty to replace the present agreement, provided that, in the event of that sovereign authority being Pakistan, the provisions of the present agreement and the aforesaid protocol be maintained.'


Even if this artilce is not valid now, it is not much ironic than the fact that a so-called Democratic and Economically huge Country called INDIA is spending huge amount of money on guarding the same glacier the size of a toothpic with about Rs5 to 6 crore daily at the cost of millions of poverty stricken Hungry Indians.

 

[blitz]

Wow long thread over this topic. I didn't know Siachen was such a touchy subject. Anyways, nothing will happen. Siachen will physically remain in Indian hands, and with time will be recognized as such by the international community. Pakistan really has no say in this anymore. You can keep protesting about the 'unjustified occupation', but does anybody else really care ? Come on honestly now.

 

[Spring Onion]

Wow long thread over this topic. I didn't know Siachen was such a touchy subject. Anyways, nothing will happen. Siachen will physically remain in Indian hands, and with time will be recognized as such by the international community. Pakistan really has no say in this anymore. You can keep protesting about the 'unjustified occupation', but does anybody else really care ? Come on honestly now.

well as i said in my earlier post india is trying to add to her bullying status by such tactics spenindg huge money on Siachin but at what expense??
At cost of Millions of Hungry Indians.

As far someone cares or not well there are no ethics left arround the world every country is driven by its own intrests so indeed interntaional community would not react.

But lets not forget that some people even from your Army have some sense and they did mentioned that what you called the property in indians hands (Siachin) was illegally occupied by India.

 

[Spring Onion]

Someone here had asked what could be the solution to the conflict over the issue?
Here i had find an intersting analysis written by an Indian Army officer (Retd) indeed sensibly written
--------

India Together: Sparring in Siachen - August 2004


Sparring in Siachen
The stated claims of India and Pakistan are so far apart that the only possible solution is to freeze existing claims and create a human exclusion zone, says Pavan Nair.

August 2004 - The latest round of Siachen talks have concluded inconclusively with the usual noises being made about continuing the process of dialogue in a frank and friendly atmosphere. Fine, the talks must continue, but for how long? We have been talking on the Siachen issue for the last fifteen years, ever since Rajiv and Benazir were on the verge of an agreement to pull out troops in 1989. This is surely a record of some sort.

I would suggest that the next round be held on the Glacier at a post on the Saltoro Ridge at twenty thousand feet. This, to give diplomats and even the generals a feel of the place. Visiting base camp or even the advance base at Kumar on the Glacier is not enough. Try spending a night at twenty thousand without oxygen. One does not have to be a mountaineer to realize that there is a human problem here. Soldiers from both sides have been deployed for twenty years at heights where basic survival is under constant threat. The human body is not designed to function at such altitudes. The toll in terms of killed and wounded on both sides is reaching the ten thousand mark and continues to rise inspite of a cease fire being in place. More than 90% of these casualties have been caused by the extreme climate and the lack of oxygen. Several hundreds have been buried in avalanches and crevasses, their bodies never recovered.

But then soldiers are expendable. How can we not defend every inch of our motherland? Never mind that the Chinese have occupied many thousands of square kilometres of our sacred territory next door in Aksai Chin which incidentally also formed a part of Jammu and Kashmir when it was ceded to India by Hari Singh. We have accepted this occupation (shown in shaded lines on the map) without sacrificing a single soldier. In Siachen we now need to look at the cost benefit ratio in human terms.

If we are serious about resolving issues between India and Pakistan, then there is no better place than Siachen. No populations are involved. Neither side has anything to gain in this arid glaciated terrain. Senior military officers past and present have said that there is no tactical or strategic purpose being served by retaining our positions on the Saltoro Ridge. The same job can be done at a tenth of the cost by creating reserves in the Nubra and Shyok Valleys. India and Pakistan spend a million dollars a day in Siachen. Even if we accept the casualties to our troops, is this level of expenditure justified? A thousand crore rupees a year is not chickenfeed for a country which is way down in the human index. (1 cr = 10 millions)

The core of the dispute lies in the interpretation of a phrase of the Karachi Agreement which was signed under UN auspices in 1949. The last bit of the Cease Fire Line in Ladakh was not demarcated as the terrain was too difficult to negotiate and military operations were not considered feasible. The Agreement states that from the last demarcated point Khor (NJ9842 on the Map), the line would run ‘thence North to the glaciers’. The Pakistani stand is untenable and is based on published maps and atlases which erroneously show the line running in a North Easterly direction from NJ9842 to the Karakorum Pass (KKO on Map). The Indian stand is that the line should follow the ridgeline of the Saltoro Range which actually runs in a North Westerly direction. This is based on the universally applicable watershed principle. This however should have been mentioned in the agreement.

Even if that be so, the unilateral occupation of the ridgeline by our troops in April 1984 was not legally tenable as passes on the ridgeline and the ridgeline itself are jointly owned. After all, if we are sitting on a line which we claim as ours, so can the other party. The Karachi agreement clearly states that in case of common or joint ownership, troops will remain five hundred yards from the line. This has not been observed by either party.

A similar situation was encountered in Antarctica where several countries had overlapping claims. The claims still exist but have been frozen under the Antarctic Treaty. The entire area has been declared a science park and is monitored by observers.

The stated claims of the countries are so far apart that the only possible solution is to freeze existing claims and create a human exclusion zone. A similar situation was encountered in Antarctica where several countries had overlapping claims. The claims still exist but have been frozen under the Antarctic Treaty and the entire area has been declared a science park and is monitored by observers who ensure that member countries are not violating environmental norms. As far as the ecosystem of Siachen is concerned, the glacier holds the largest reserves of fresh water in South Asia and feeds the Indus via the Nubra and Shyok Rivers.

It is estimated that 200 thousand tons of garbage, human waste and military junk are lying preserved in the region. The calculation is simple. A single soldier creates one ton of garbage a year. Hundreds of thousands of shells have been fired. Large amounts of kerosene have leaked into the glacier. It will take several years of concerted effort to nurture the ecosystem back to health provided we withdraw from the area now. We need to create public opinion which will influence the ruling elites of both countries. We need to act now.

It is evident that left to the parties, nothing but further rounds of talks will happen and that too in due course of time. Should the people of both countries get more involved in this issue or should we let it lie under the carpet? It seems that all interested parties are happy with the status quo -- governments, military establishments, suppliers of special equipment and strategists on both sides. So the noises about the peace process will continue. In the meantime, soldiers will lose more fingers and toes or just drop dead. The glacier will continue to recede, we will continue to waste our limited resources, play cricket and have more rounds of talks.

We have a model in the Indus Water Treaty which was negotiated under the auspices of the World Bank. Even during the wars fought between the countries, the terms of the treaty were respected by both parties. It is now time that the Siachen dialogue be facilitated by a third party. India is averse to this, however it is suggested that the United Nations should take this role. After all, the Karachi Agreement which is at the core of the dispute was signed under UN auspices and lies in a safe vault in New York. This could be the only way out since any prudent observer will agree that that the Simla Agreement was violated when we occupied Siachen in the first place.

There is another option. India can withdraw unilaterally. Like the Chinese did in '62, after establishing their military superiority. We would have made our point and can declare that any subsequent violation of the line by Pakistan will be considered hostile. But this requires political will.

Pavan Nair
August 2004

Pavan Nair is a retired army officer who served in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Kashmir and Antarctica. He works with the Pune-based NGO, Jagruti, on issues of women and child development.


• Write the author
• Peace and security
• Jammu and Kashmir

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

lol......stop crying like a *****

Care to elaborate and actually "debate" - or are you restricted to nonsensical one liners now?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Wow long thread over this topic. I didn't know Siachen was such a touchy subject. Anyways, nothing will happen. Siachen will physically remain in Indian hands, and with time will be recognized as such by the international community. Pakistan really has no say in this anymore. You can keep protesting about the 'unjustified occupation', but does anybody else really care ? Come on honestly now.

Of course, of course - nothing should be done when "no one cares". Why did India and Pakistan bother getting independence from the British? No one "really cared" for the frightfully impoverished and backward region anyway - yet here we are....

 

[blitz]

Of course, of course - nothing should be done when "no one cares". Why did India and Pakistan bother getting independence from the British? No one "really cared" for the frightfully impoverished and backward region anyway - yet here we are....

Question is, how do you suppose Pakistan can get Siachen ? Only 2 ways, either military operation, or international political pressure. In case of Military operation, either PA can do a head on assault or use subterfuge like Kargil [make Indian troops withdraw after some treaty and then occupy]. Head on assault will yield no results, IMO, or do you disagree ? Using subterfuge will only work if IA withdraws while the positions are still not authenticated. Once the positions are recognized on international maps Pakistan, even if it occupies Siachen, cannot enforce a ceasefire in case IA launches an attack to retake the glacier [Indian territory after authentication of maps]. And without political pressure, IA WILL take it if need be. Or do you disagree ? MOD's current attempt to send tourists seems to suggest that India is not willing to vacate Siachen before current positions are internationally recognized. But you never know, i suggest you keep trying this approach. Maximum yield with least cost IMO.

International political pressure ? Not a chance, IMO, or do you disagree ?

 

[jin]

Go ahead with more hits. It does not matter. We have got immune to all this Cry Wolf! No big deal,actually.

Pakistan has been trying to wrest Kashmir through all tricks in the book Starting from Op Gibralter (of course, you find mention in Pak history as was stated by the Pak link I posted). Then you tried in Kargil. In both cases, Moslem informed India, In the first case, it was the Sunnis and in the second case, the Shias!

Your terrorists are trying their best.

Why do you refer only these two case of of few shefered informing you about Pak Presence. Why dont you see that more than 60 thousand un armed muslims you killed, ten of thousands missing, thousand of their houses burned, ten of thousand looted in every kind, tens of thousand fled to Pakistan to save their lives. And dont you see in retaliation of your such brutality your your 7 hundred thousands army beated by these Moslem freedom fighters. Is it war of love of Sunni and Shia Moslem with you. Pakistan has never tried to wrest kashmir. Pakistan has just standing and supporting their cause which you have accepted in UN.
For this just cause Pakistan will continue to support till they achieved independence whether it will in a kind of Operation Gibralter or Kargil.

The fact that you are failing, proves that we don't think religion makes a country!

Musharraf is proving so. He is against all the Islamic nutcases and has joined the Great White Satan. What is the result? Pakistan is benefiting from rejuvenated economy and Pakistan is soaring to great heights.

Religion is not everything in life. The stomach and mental well being is!

Religion does not fill a stomach!

What milestone you have achieved now by declaring yourself so called secular? what height have you touched? Still more than half of your population living below pverty line with yard stick of Rs.17 per day. For millions of your population dont have lavatory and so on the list goes. The cause of our weak economy was not our religion but those were corrupt politicians as are dwelling in your country too.
So dont bash at our religion which have give us tremendous instruments of social justice and and equal distribution of wealth which never let people to commit suicide due to poverty.
Islam has never been a religion of poor. Now your millions of indian run to Muslim countries, including Malaysia and the whole region of middle east, to fill their stomach and secure their future.

As shameful as have US troops during Op Parakama, if not more for Pakistan. Even today, the US calls the shot for Pakistan!

So what you did by this operation Parakam, where you spent billions and killing your own more than 700 jawan and turned back without firing a bullet on our forces.

Good for you.

I love that sleight of hand - diplomatic and political stuff. Heard of a thing call Puppet on a String? Even now, the US sneezes and Pakistan catches a cold. Who is doing exactly what they want in NWFP with their aircraft and drones? And Pakistan makes strong protests (check Pak newspapers and if you want I will fish out the links) Forgotten that Bush came and fired up Mushrraf and Pakistan on Pakistan soil? Want a link?

Yes we saw puppets sitting in your parliament when Clinton arrived. In your above mentioned operation Pakaram, also US got sneeze due to polution and you mistaken it as an order to turn back your forces.
If you refer to aircaft incident somewhere in border area if has been occured, due to our too much cooperation with US for the same cause and due to infilteration of taliban with moving ring of battle in that area. By the way i am living in tribal area, till now nobody i have seen to testify the sight of aircrat. As you have mentioned about strong protest, that is working till now.
But atleast there is no an inch concession with your Migs as you have seen during Kargil War.
We did not see any fire up of Musharaf if you try to point out the request for nuclear deal failure, which still not digested by India. But we saw that they did not dare to go our sacred places with their dogs.

Apparently Patton tanks etc are Pakistani I presume. Please check Pak links on the issue!

We dont deny that we have taken Patton tanks, F16 and other state of the art defence equipments along with hard cash.That was our worth not our beg because we were defending their interest alongwith ours.So we got oppertunity we availed that as they were crying that Pak is our ally and you that Pak or India cant cry that US is our ally.
When their interest came to zer with us after the fall of USSR, they put sanctions and did not deliver F16 aircafts for which we had paid millions of dollar in advance(thanks for such duration of time which led us to self- sufficiency in high volume of military equipments).
As again you see that now we defending their interest not coinciding with ours, getting F16, Cobra and other state of the art military equipments with no money or with low money.

No military aid. All paid up! We have the money and don't beg.

What do you expect? Won't buy military stuff from other countries?

But no begging. Have money, will buy!

Seen how many contenders for the aircraft deal?

Show me one such thing for Pakistan.

In 1962 war against China, you got one opertunity and you avail that by accepting military equipments and assistance and did not deny that.
In this world every country has to see her interest first and you will not get a peny or a bullet if you are useless and cant defend their interest.
India bought lot of Russian equipments by paying huge amount why?
Because its uselessness of india to Russia for not capable to defend her interest hence now way other than to pay.
So it is not begging but its one usefulness and uselessnes. If it be begging than till before india should become superpower, having millions of beggers or due to billions dollar business of begging experience extended to high rank leadership with remarkable achievement.

So its not begging its called Geo Politics.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Question is, how do you suppose Pakistan can get Siachen ? Only 2 ways, either military operation, or international political pressure. In case of Military operation, either PA can do a head on assault or use subterfuge like Kargil [make Indian troops withdraw after some treaty and then occupy]. Head on assault will yield no results, IMO, or do you disagree ? Using subterfuge will only work if IA withdraws while the positions are still not authenticated. Once the positions are recognized on international maps Pakistan, even if it occupies Siachen, cannot enforce a ceasefire in case IA launches an attack to retake the glacier [Indian territory after authentication of maps]. And without political pressure, IA WILL take it if need be. Or do you disagree ? MOD's current attempt to send tourists seems to suggest that India is not willing to vacate Siachen before current positions are internationally recognized. But you never know, i suggest you keep trying this approach. Maximum yield with least cost IMO.

International political pressure ? Not a chance, IMO, or do you disagree ?

I cannot talk to the military aspects of taking the Glacier, but there is something to be said about continuing to pursue the diplomatic option on both Kashmir and Siachen. I think we had this discussion a while back when I joined this forum - I believe that provided Pakistan can continue to show economic growth along the lines it has currently, it is in its advantage to not give up its claim on either of the two - whats there to lose? At worst the relationship between the two states stays at the level it is now - more time for Pakistani businesses to mature and more opportunities lost for Indian businesses.

The implications of allowing Glacier Tourism are more symbolic than anything, the entire process of negotiations is extremely delicate and something like this basically is a blatant, "this is mine"! So what remains to be negotiated? However it has no real effect on situation on the ground. Does it really matter, to the final settlement of the issue, whether India sends a million tourists up there?

But it is appropriate to protest an act that suggests a "particular unilateral decision" on the status of the glacier when negotiations are still ongoing.

With respect to a few shells being fired off and a few tourists being killed (even Westerners, and I would not condone such a thing), its not going to cause any international pressure at all - it is a known war zone, the State Department and other Wetern institutions will probably issue warnings against travel to the area, and the people going up there will be doing so at their own risk.

 

[dabong1]

What do you know about kashmir, Siachin??

Regards
Wilco

My family lives in kashmir.......so i think i have a better idea about what going on then yourself.

 

[dabong1]

Whatever maybe the contentions of aired here, Kashmir will remain in India and with India.

That is the ground reality and very little will change the situation.

60 years, four wars and no change!

That is the truism.

No it won't

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Why do you refer only these two case of of few shefered informing you about Pak Presence. Why dont you see that more than 60 thousand un armed muslims you killed, ten of thousands missing, thousand of their houses burned, ten of thousand looted in every kind, tens of thousand fled to Pakistan to save their lives. And dont you see in retaliation of your such brutality your your 7 hundred thousands army beated by these Moslem freedom fighters. Is it war of love of Sunni and Shia Moslem with you. Pakistan has never tried to wrest kashmir. Pakistan has just standing and supporting their cause which you have accepted in UN.
For this just cause Pakistan will continue to support till they achieved independence whether it will in a kind of Operation Gibralter or Kargil.

One can answer facts, but not fiction, that too of a fevered imagination!

Pakistan has never tried to wrest Kashmir. The wars were fought because Pakistan did not have a firing range? And of course, now you will say the wars are never started by Pakistan even though enough links have been bandied about in this forum proving to the contrary!

Keep giving support and in any form, if you will. The result will be the same.

These emotional grandstanding does not impress since it is usually done for bringing solace to a failed pursuits!

Thundering on forum does not change the facts on the ground nor it ever will.

What milestone you have achieved now by declaring yourself so called secular? what height have you touched? Still more than half of your population living below pverty line with yard stick of Rs.17 per day. For millions of your population dont have lavatory and so on the list goes. The cause of our weak economy was not our religion but those were corrupt politicians as are dwelling in your country too

.

Being secular and being under the poverty line are not the same thing. This is an example of flawed co-relation and facts.

It is amusing that you attribute the poor economy of Pakistan to corrupt politician and you display immense perceived insight when it come to India, wherein you equate secularism with poverty!

Do read the economic situation of Pakistan from the posts in "Will we Miss Musharraf" thread.

Are you aware of the conditions of the poor in the US? Does it mean that the US is a failed state?

If lavatory for you is the index of economic prowess, what can one say?! By your logic and indirect insinuation that Pakistan is doing well comparatively because of a surfeit of lavatories in Pakistan I take it that this is your index of wealth and an indicator that you are doing better? Normally, lavatories are used for natural call and in no way indicates a significance of wealth, unless what emanates is considered as wealth!

So dont bash at our religion which have give us tremendous instruments of social justice and and equal distribution of wealth which never let people to commit suicide due to poverty.
Islam has never been a religion of poor. Now your millions of indian run to Muslim countries, including Malaysia and the whole region of middle east, to fill their stomach and secure their future.

I have no time to bash any religion since I do not believe in religion and its dogmas and the vice like grip the clergy has over people. I think it inhibits rational thinking, but then I also believe, each to his own way.

May I request you to desist in attributing your perceived inferences to me as my character faults? The fact that it remains paramount in your mind, it indicates your jaundiced state.

I wonder if Maliks, Chaudhuries, Bugtis, Nawabs Shaibs and the situation of the rural poor is indicative of social justice and distribution. There is a lot of difference in desires and facts! Sooner you understand that, it will be for the better.

I am delighted to learn that Islam is not a religion of the poor. Indeed, do Indians run to Moslem countries to fill their stomach? And the Pakistanis who also are in huge numbers there are there because they wish to visit their mosques and religious head?

Please for Heavens sake, read what you write or else you do come out as having very convoluted ideas, which does not face the acid test. Though I will concede it does bring humour relief in the overheat generated in discussions!

Have you ever thought that these Indians (and Pakistanis, if you don't mind) go to these land because they have the skills which the natives don't have or are bone lazy and not ready to indulge in?

So what you did by this operation Parakam, where you spent billions and killing your own more than 700 jawan and turned back without firing a bullet on our forces.

I am touched by your concern about India's expenditure and its aftermath.

Mobilisation taught many a thing and out of it came what is known as the Cold Start or so I learn from the media.

Yes we saw puppets sitting in your parliament when Clinton arrived. In your above mentioned operation Pakaram, also US got sneeze due to polution and you mistaken it as an order to turn back your forces.

Indeed you did.

Clinton praised India.

Would you be kind enough to equate Bush's visit and his rapping Pakistan on its knuckle for not shaping up?

In your blind hatred, do not fall into the trap of having to eat your words.

If I had the same venom as you, I could have flooded facts and figures in every thread, but then I try to remain civil since many a Pakistani here are not consumed as you and some of your ilk are and it would not be fair to them.

If you refer to aircaft incident somewhere in border area if has been occured, due to our too much cooperation with US for the same cause and due to infilteration of taliban with moving ring of battle in that area. By the way i am living in tribal area, till now nobody i have seen to testify the sight of aircrat. As you have mentioned about strong protest, that is working till now.

It does not in any way add to credibility that you live in tribal area or you belong to a tribe there.

The honesty of some of the people there is suspect. Musharraf, much against US advice, took a bold step and had a pact with the tribal folks there. And they stabbed him in the back! So much, for the requirement to give credibility if tribal see US aircraft or not. I presume none have been killed there either!

But atleast there is no an inch concession with your Migs as you have seen during Kargil War.

If you only understood about flying an aircraft.

We did not see any fire up of Musharaf if you try to point out the request for nuclear deal failure, which still not digested by India. But we saw that they did not dare to go our sacred places with their dogs.

That is not what I am alluding to.

It is the press conference wherein later Bush was taught how to play cricket!

Not for the first time, George W Bush has shown that he gets warmer welcomes from old Cold War antagonists and their allies than Washington's long-standing rivals.

Mr Bush and a buffalo

One of the less likely meetings during Mr Bush's visit
From coming nose to nose with a sleepy buffalo to triumphantly holding up a giant pumpkin, the trip to India seemed to offer him a much-needed tonic for his second-term blues.

There was a glorious moment as he finished working the rope line at the end of his keynote speech at the Purana Qila (Old Fort) on Friday night.

As he turned to leave, with his presidential entourage silhouetted against the floodlit ramparts of the old fort and a colonnade of palm trees, two swooning middle-aged Indian businessmen waved him wistfully away, as if they were lovers bidding farewell on a windswept railway platform.

It was part Brief Encounter, part Casablanca, and, well, part Brokeback Mountain. Even one of India's most hard-hitting journalists seemed temporarily to have gone slightly weak at the knees, noting that he was "much cleverer" than she expected.

Certainly, Mr Bush won many new friends here - which is not entirely surprising given the generosity of the nuclear agreement and the passion with which he argued that India's economic rise presented an opportunity for Americans rather than posing a threat.

In making so many concessions to seal the nuclear deal, he has also picked a bruising fight with the non-proliferation lobby in the US Congress - leading Republicans included - which he could well do without.

Mr Bush desperately needed some positive headlines to come from this trip - which he got in spades from the India press. But he faces an acid shower of criticism at home.

As the New York Times scathingly put it: "The nuclear deal that Mr Bush concluded with India threatens to blast a bomb-sized loophole through the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty... Mr. Bush should have just stayed home."

THE QUIET INDIAN

They make the oddest of couples: the Rawhide Texan and the buttoned-down Punjabi.

Manmohan Singh and George Bush in Delhi

Singh and Bush make the 'oddest of couples'
But Prime Minister Manmohan Singh appears to enjoy a surprisingly genial relationship with the president, which he has used to dramatic effect.

India looks set to end its atomic isolation, without any caps on its nuclear arsenal and without opening up its plutonium-producing fast breeder reactors to international inspection.

With the possible exception of offering Prime Minister Singh a time-share on his ranch in Crawford, or free room and board in the Lincoln Bedroom at the White House, it is hard to imagine how the deal could have been sweeter.

Mr Singh leveraged what has long been regarded as his most useful attribute: his unimpeachable character.

It gives him credibility at home, and authority abroad.

American critics of the nuclear deal will find it hard to portray this soft-spoken technocrat as a crazed proliferator. The Quiet Indian presents the acceptable face of what many consider an unacceptable deal.

THE GENERAL

Publicly admonished by President Bush in their joint press conference in Islamabad on Saturday, the larger-than-life General Pervez Musharraf looked a mere shadow of his usual, ebullient self.


Pervez Musharraf and George Bush

Gen Musharraf 'looked a mere shadow of his usual, ebullient self'

At times, it felt like watching a stern headmaster scolding an errant school boy for a less-than-satisfactory end of term report.

On democracy? Could do much better. On America's war on terrorism? Could do much better. On a nuclear deal with Pakistan? After AQ Khan, you deserve detention not a deal.

Pervez Musharraf is the region's great political showman. But Bush was so obviously the ringmaster on Saturday that it left the General looking greatly humbled.

WHITE HOUSE ADVANCE TEAM

Whether it was getting sniffer dogs to nose around the Gandhi memorial, which caused great offence in Delhi, or trying to segregate Indian reporters from Americans at the joint press conference, the White House advance team proved as boorish and ill-mannered as ever.

So, good for the argumentative Delhi correspondents who refused to relinquish their seats.

"Move - now," shouted a young American functionary, mistakenly thinking his dark shades and curly earpiece would intimidate his surly adversaries. Within seconds, he was forced to beat a hasty and humiliating retreat.

The journalists had won the battle of Hyderabad House.

We dont deny that we have taken Patton tanks, F16 and other state of the art defence equipments along with hard cash.That was our worth not our beg because we were defending their interest alongwith ours.So we got oppertunity we availed that as they were crying that Pak is our ally and you that Pak or India cant cry that US is our ally.
When their interest came to zer with us after the fall of USSR, they put sanctions and did not deliver F16 aircafts for which we had paid millions of dollar in advance(thanks for such duration of time which led us to self- sufficiency in high volume of military equipments).
As again you see that now we defending their interest not coinciding with ours, getting F16, Cobra and other state of the art military equipments with no money or with low money.

You can't deny. Asal Uttar is full of such derelicts and which even foreigners have seen!

True, you paid hard cash!

Give us another!

In 1962 war against China, you got one opertunity and you avail that by accepting military equipments and assistance and did not deny that.
In this world every country has to see her interest first and you will not get a peny or a bullet if you are useless and cant defend their interest.
India bought lot of Russian equipments by paying huge amount why?
Because its uselessness of india to Russia for not capable to defend her interest hence now way other than to pay.
So it is not begging but its one usefulness and uselessnes. If it be begging than till before india should become superpower, having millions of beggers or due to billions dollar business of begging experience extended to high rank leadership with remarkable achievement.

So its not begging its called Geo Politics.

Rambling!

I am afraid I have not understood this geopolitical nugget!

 

[blitz]

I cannot talk to the military aspects of taking the Glacier, but there is something to be said about continuing to pursue the diplomatic option on both Kashmir and Siachen. I think we had this discussion a while back when I joined this forum - I believe that provided Pakistan can continue to show economic growth along the lines it has currently, it is in its advantage to not give up its claim on either of the two - whats there to lose? At worst the relationship between the two states stays at the level it is now - more time for Pakistani businesses to mature and more opportunities lost for Indian businesses.

The implications of allowing Glacier Tourism are more symbolic than anything, the entire process of negotiations is extremely delicate and something like this basically is a blatant, "this is mine"! So what remains to be negotiated? However it has no real effect on situation on the ground. Does it really matter, to the final settlement of the issue, whether India sends a million tourists up there?

But it is appropriate to protest an act that suggests a "particular unilateral decision" on the status of the glacier when negotiations are still ongoing.

With respect to a few shells being fired off and a few tourists being killed (even Westerners, and I would not condone such a thing), its not going to cause any international pressure at all - it is a known war zone, the State Department and other Wetern institutions will probably issue warnings against travel to the area, and the people going up there will be doing so at their own risk.

Agnostic, although you have made a good argument, but you disregarded a very important fact. From your reasoning, i think you mean that if Pakistan keeps growing economically at its current rate, there will be a stage when Pakistan will become a significant global player. At that time, Pakistan would be able to wield much greater influence in its quest for Kashmir than presently.

What you disregard it, that if India also keeps growing at the same rate that it is growing now, the relative economic gulf would become so enormous that infact Pakistan will have lesser bargaining power vs India than it has today. An example is, with a 9.5% GDP growth rate, India adds almost 70% of the entire Pakistani GDP EVERY YEAR to its economy. The gulf is widening, not narrowing !! Looking at GDP growth figures don't show the true picture, untill you also keep the scale and size in perspective. The end product of Indian and Pakistani economic expansion would be a much wider differential between the relative economic, political and military capability of the two nations than it is today.

As for negotiations, well, ummm, what can i say ? I might sound like evil incarnate whenever i utter this, but it is my belief that this world still abides by the law of power, it always will. Not that i agree with it, it shouldn't be so, but thats how it is. Id rather not fool myself. Siachen is Indian as long as its under Indian control. *** is Pakistani as long as its under Pakistani control. I don't think Pakistan deserves any part of Kashmir, but no matter how many times might i sucessfully convince you or anyone else, would it really make any difference ? After all all this bullshit about claims and counter claims is based on selective history, don't you agree ? I mean you say Kashmir should be with Pakistan because its muslim majority, but i will say that it was Hindu majority before and Hindus were forcibly thrown out from there. You will ask how ? And i will say that Islam didnt exist before the 7th century, and there were obviously people living in Kashmir even then Do you see the absurdity of these claims ? Its all based on at which point of time in history does one begin from. Thats why, Siachen is Indian because Indians control it, simple really.

Now if Pakistan can change this basic fact of life, it can stake its claims etc etc. But i HIGHLY doubt it.

 

[IceCold]

I agree with you blitz regarding the absurdity of the claims as it all depends upon which point of time in history one begins from?
Claiming this is ours that is ours or this is your or that is yours will not change the fact that whatever part is under indian control, it will remain there, similarly whatever part is under pakistan control it will stay there. Unless one can change it and when we talk about change it then there is one and only one option to do it. that it the use of the force. If either one of us can use force to change the ground reality only that will matter other then that its just a waste of energy.