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Pakistan possible answer against india nuclear submarine

As other people have noted, we need a Putin. A no-nonsense tough guy who will take all our pathetic, corrupt politicians with their interminable petty squabbles and lock them in a room -- and then get on with the important task of taking the country forward. :pakistan:
Great post until you ruined it by saying "...we need a Putin..". Speak to the Russians they'd be more than happy to trade their Putin for your Zardari.
Getting back to the Indian nuclear sub, I was debating nuclear deterrence with A1kaid on another thread - now that India has second strike capability what happens to MAD?
 
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Great post until you ruined it by saying "...we need a Putin..". Speak to the Russians they'd be more than happy to trade their Putin for your Zardari.
Getting back to the Indian nuclear sub, I was debating nuclear deterrence with A1kaid on another thread - now that India has second strike capability what happens to MAD?
The scenerio has always been MAD..If Pakistan and India ever goes Nuclear it will be Mutually Assured Desturction.
 
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A bigger fish to fry than Nuclear Submarines?



Strategic stability in South Asia



Saturday, August 01, 2009
Tariq Osman Hyder

The launch of India's first missile-capable nuclear submarine, the latest proliferation of lethal WMD in the region, has serious implications for South Asia and beyond. It poses response choices for Pakistan to avert strategic imbalance. India must also reflect on what kind of an overarching architecture of relationship it wishes in the long term to evolve with Pakistan. How far is India's strategic and conventional build-up a consequence of its threat perceptions or motivated by the objective of threat projection and hegemony. Furthermore the international community must reassess its responsibility for this deterioration and how it should act in future to support peace and security in South Asia.

Pakistan continues to perceive that, while socio-economic progress and combating extremism constitute core objectives, its main existential threat continues to emanate from India. An India in which core policy makers and influential segments continue to regard the creation of Pakistan from "mother India" as a historical mistake, which at best may still be undone and till then Pakistan should be dealt with so that it gives up its support for Kashmiri self-determination and acquiesces to a subordinate role in South Asia.

Pakistan, though a significant middle order country, has always faced an asymmetrical imbalance and threat in the conventional field from a much larger India. Pakistan's hard won nuclear capability has kept the peace by providing, through a credible minimum nuclear deterrent, strategic stability in South Asia.

The peace process, the composite dialogue which was set in motion between the two countries in 2004 was an effort to manage the different facets of this difficult relationship with the objective of resolving disputes in a peaceful manner acceptable to both sides so that both countries could increasingly concentrate on improving the lives of their peoples in a region which had increasingly fallen behind the rest of the world.

As part of the composite dialogue expert level talks were initiated on both nuclear and conventional CBMs. In the first Nuclear CBMs meeting in June 2004, both sides agreed that the nuclear capabilities of each other, which are based on their national security imperatives, constitute a factor for stability. Two main agreements on pre-notification of ballistic missile tests and reduction of risks of accidents related to nuclear weapons were signed. Even before India broke off the peace process after the Mumbai incident, the peace process had slowed down. There was no concrete movement on the core issue of Kashmir and no promise of movement on Siachin, Sir Creek and the Indus Waters which provide Pakistan's life blood. While the nuclear CBMs agreements continue to hold, there was no forward movement and India wanted to de-link itself from Pakistan even in this nuclear CBMs field in which India reversed the maxim of thinking globally and acting locally.

In this India has been encouraged by a number of developments. The US-Indo nuclear deal was the high water mark of this bilateral strategic partnership. The United States lost the opportunity of encouraging nuclear restraint in South Asia while providing civil nuclear power to both fossil fuel deficit countries. The agreement enhanced India's strategic capability, freeing its limited uranium reserves for military use and keeping eight reactors out of safeguards with the ability to produce fissile material for 280 nuclear weapons annually, apart from its equally un-safeguarded 13 breeder reactors programme.

The US, Israel and Russia agreed to cooperate with India for its ABM programme which would further destabilise the strategic balance and force Pakistan to increase its missile throw weight. India rejected and the international community did not support Pakistan's proposal for a Strategic Restraint Regime with its three interlocking elements of conflict resolution, nuclear and missile restraint, including non-introduction of ABMs, and conventional balance, to avoid an unnecessary arms race.

Russia over almost two decades supported India's nuclear submarine project through technology, technical advice and leasing of nuclear submarines. India's cruise missile Brahmos was jointly developed with Russia
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The first stage of India's nuclear submarine project is to build five submarines carrying 12 nuclear-tipped ballistic missiles at first with a range of between 300-700 kilometres and then of 3500 kilometres. The two Akula class submarines to be leased from Russia would carry some 48 ballistic missiles between them. Hence, this submarine-based part of the ambitious India nuclear triad of land-, air- and sea-based nuclear weapons would have some 100+ nuclear weapons at its disposal. The other air launched gravity nuclear weapons, land launched ballistic missiles, tactical nuclear weapons and land, air and sea launched cruise missiles would make up a formidable nuclear delivery capability.

India justifies this build-up as it claims that it faces potential threats from China as well as from Pakistan. While US wants to build up India as a counter to China's growing influence, and Russia may wish to do so to a lesser degree apart from maintaining its strategic partnership with India in the face of growing American influence, given the growing economic and political relationship between India and China, no objective strategist has been able to postulate any credible conflict scenario between the two countries.

On the other hand, 95 percent of India's military potential is targeted against Pakistan. The planned nuclear submarine fleet with its short range ballistic missiles or cruise missiles is Pakistan-specific

Despite policy statements of wanting better relations with Pakistan, India's "Cold Start" or proactive military doctrine aims at giving India the ability of rapidly seizing parts of Pakistan while remaining under the nuclear threshold. Hence, while the nuclear submarine-based fleet has been justified to provide India with an assured second strike capability, which it claims is necessitated by its "no-first-use" doctrine, it will be used to reinforce the "cold start" objectives by reinforcing pressure on Pakistan not to use nuclear weapons, tactical or strategic, to deter or counter any Indian thrust into Pakistan.

Pakistan's response has been that it will take all steps to safeguard its security and to maintain strategic balance in the region. What should Pakistan do? First of all develop its own second strike nuclear submarine based capability on which it must have given some thought having been long aware of the Indian programme. Secondly, equip its conventional submarines with nuclear-tipped cruise missiles. Thirdly, as the Russian assistance to India for this project, and the lack of any objection from the US or any other party has shown that both leasing of nuclear submarines and technology for their production are completely compatible with the global non-proliferation regime, Pakistan should explore such possibilities. Fourthly, the most important lesson for Pakistan, a latecomer by necessity as a nuclear state, is that while it does not have to match India, nuclear weapon by nuclear weapon, even so, to maintain strategic stability in these changing and adverse ground realities, it will need to continue its modest fissile material production in the foreseeable future and cannot brook any developments or negotiations counter to this vital national security requirement. Hence, faced with these escalating threats Pakistan must oppose the initiation of negotiations on the Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty, which countries, with their own comfortable fissile material stockpiles and who have also helped arm India, want to begin and prioritise in the conference on Disarmament in Geneva, specifically at Pakistan's expense, and if negotiations begin, not to accept any outcome detrimental to Pakistan' strategic and energy security. If our policy makers and negotiators in Geneva do not live up to this task they will never be forgiven by the nation.


The writer, a former diplomat, headed Pakistan's delegation in talks with India on nuclear and conventional CBMs (2004-2007). Email: ambassador.tariqosmanhyder@ gmail.com
 
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Dear Glomax Sahib:

Why does India need a Nuclear submarine??? Is it under threat from US, UK, Russia, China or the more lethal nations like Mauratius, Siri Lanka (now that they have taken care of the Tamils they can shift their sights on Indian Tamils) or is it truly Bangladesh which has its hands on the Indian Jagular????

Come on guys why this offensive arming ? This makes all the regional countries nervous and as a result the start arming! It is a zero sum game.

Do you all truly believe you have a real threat from anywhere -- is US going to land its troops and take over a a nation of billion babus or for that matter China starts choking your oil (now that you have the new love afairs' gift -- Nuclear Power Agreement this will become very soon a non issue.)

Or the plan is more sinister -- India is taking one after another very careful and measured set of steps on a game-plan that clearly smells of Regional hegemony in a big way!!!!!

The issues for us is not the millions who are going hungry in India or will go hungry -- the issue for us is much more closer to heart; these plans and steps clearly are overkill to handle the regional navies -- it is starting to look more and more like the arming of of the infamous Third Reich -- who are you going to annex next??? Is there an Austria around your borders to annex --

Than you wonder why people on this forum are deadly serious when it comes to India!!!!!

Food for thought my friend --- I do hope you realize where this path of arming will lead your country to. A large Army, highly trained, armed with the latest weapons, navy loking for 100 craft blue ocean force, an airforce starting to get filled with high tech weaponry -- movies spuing out the Greater Indian superiority the "Shining India," nothing can stop India becoming the power it should be -- remember the Swastika???? What india is lacking today to make this the killer brew is an Indian Hitler!!!!

Have a nice day!!!

Why Does China need all those nuclear submarines.....do you ask the same question to them......

India has all the right in the world to strengthen its Armed forces and so does Pakistan.......India has a coastline may be 10 times that of Pakistan so we need more Warships and Submarines than Pakistan....


YOu may claim Indias plans to be sinister....but tell me ...why should India look up to America or any country as a lesser threat......just because we have trade relations with major powers it does not mean they will not attack India in future...who knows...Americans were friends of Pakistan sometime back and now most of the Pakistanis look at them as enemies..


India also aspires to be Regional power just like Pakistan aspires to be a Islamic Power....why doubt our intentions ....Pakistan also adds Alll kind of weaponry ...and its not just for fun...

Don't worry about Millions Indians being Hungry....we are not going out with a begging bowl to the world forum ..asking for more money every quarter.....nor we ask for loan waivers..from IMF.....

A strong defense force is a requisite if you have to grow as a Powerful economy and India will keep on doing that whatever people may say...
Your thoughts are skewed because you have only seen dictoatorships for Most of the time in past 6 decades..but India had been a democracy....so don't worry we are not going to have a Hitler anytime soon...or may be ever....
 
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china has USA and india as her bigger enemies and world's Biggest country voth by land and peoples live in it it needs power full millitary to counter underdogs india and USA against china
 
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Great post until you ruined it by saying "...we need a Putin..". Speak to the Russians they'd be more than happy to trade their Putin for your Zardari.
lolz well it depends, lets take a scenario that Russians realize after a while and they beg for the reversal of deal.:lol:
 
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The scenerio has always been MAD..If Pakistan and India ever goes Nuclear it will be Mutually Assured Desturction.

No thats not possible.

Pakistan does not possess enough Nuclear Weapons to completely destroy India but India does only because Pakistan is a smaller country and they are less targets.

A nuclear war between India and Pakistan would result in a total destruction of Pakistan and 50-60% destruction of India.
 
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No thats not possible.

Pakistan does not possess enough Nuclear Weapons to completely destroy India but India does only because Pakistan is a smaller country and they are less targets.

A nuclear war between India and Pakistan would result in a total destruction of Pakistan and 50-60% destruction of India.

Dude - nuke wars are not child's play. if there will be any kind of nuke war and - either country end up hurting civilian means - world intervention and - wiping of that country from planet earth. and people are not idiot in either countries to let their goverment bomb - innocent civilian on both sides. so lets not take it too far - to full scale nuke war. :cheers:
 
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No thats not possible.

Pakistan does not possess enough Nuclear Weapons to completely destroy India but India does only because Pakistan is a smaller country and they are less targets.

A nuclear war between India and Pakistan would result in a total destruction of Pakistan and 50-60% destruction of India.
Well, Even if we destroy 60% of India the rest will be destroyed by radiation..keep in mind that winds usually blow towards Indian side so if Pakistan is nuked even then India is screwed.In any case, the people who will survive nuclear war will wish they had died in blast.Nuclear war cannot be fought or won by any two nuclear armed states, if they do, then it will be MAD or Mutually Assured Destruction, especially when the two powers like India and Pakistan are next door neighbours. In the South Asia context, wind patterns, close geographical proximity, and almost zero warning time renders any nuclear exchange unthinkable, unless the Indians are thinking of shifting to the Moon or Mars on a permanent basis. Only then can they be prepared for a nuclear war with Pakistan.
 
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Well, Even if we destroy 60% of India the rest will be destroyed by radiation..keep in mind that winds usually blow towards Indian side so if Pakistan is nuked even then India is screwed.In any case, the people who will survive nuclear war will wish they had died in blast.Nuclear war cannot be fought or won by any two nuclear armed states, if they do, then it will be MAD or Mutually Assured Destruction, especially when the two powers like India and Pakistan are next door neighbours. In the South Asia context, wind patterns, close geographical proximity, and almost zero warning time renders any nuclear exchange unthinkable, unless the Indians are thinking of shifting to the Moon or Mars on a permanent basis. Only then can they be prepared for a nuclear war with Pakistan.

To 'destroy' 60 % of a land mass as large as India is simply not possible. In any case what does " destroy' mean ? After the 1st strike should any nation allow its adversary to retain delivery systems for the next ?

Winds change direction at diff times of the year. I agree that a nuc situation is quite worthless. A nuke loses its relevance once used.

It is worth considering the fact tha all major Pk rivers originate from India & flow in the N- S direction. The implications are enormous.
 
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You people talk about nuclear war like it was a border Skirmesh with Rifles.

The so called Civlised world has had Nuke weapons for over 60 years.

Never been used.

Unless our Gov,ts are crazed lunnatic animals/ caveman with no comprehension of wat a nuke war head can do " i don,t think we will ever see a nuke war in indo/pak or indo/china conflict.

However I DO THINK A SMALL CONVENTIONAL border clash can happen with india pakistan..
But the World will stop it very quckily.

We like to think we are independant free nations can do what we like no one can stop us.

ITS RUBBISH we are both at the mercy of the UN. and the world..
 
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By the Way Great post by a Newbie Developro

I think we are missing the point here.

The SSBN is not meant as a gesture towards Pakistan. India believes it has neutralized Pakistan as an offensive threat long ago and is now eyeing the big leagues.

With the SSBN, the space program, the top billionaires list, etc., India is joining a number of exclusive clubs and is ticking all the right boxes to sit at the Big Boys table. And it will be welcomed by the West which has been helping India and cultivating it as a counterweight against China.

Of course, India still has enormous poverty and internal problems but, unlike us, they are moving in the right direction. They have a world class education system that churns out very smart people, a growing economy that brings in forex, and a very effective propaganda and diplomacy apparatus active around the world.

The Pakistan armed forces have done remarkably well given our country's far more limited resources and the sanctions, but we cannot continue this arms race with India unless we improve our fundamentals. We seriously need to grow our economy and upgrade our educational base. We also need to forge strong military alliances in the region. A couple of PAF bases and nuclear-armed Agostas parked in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh would cause much insomnia in Delhi.

As other people have noted, we need a Putin. A no-nonsense tough guy who will take all our pathetic, corrupt politicians with their interminable petty squabbles and lock them in a room -- and then get on with the important task of taking the country forward.
 
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Well, Even if we destroy 60% of India the rest will be destroyed by radiation..keep in mind that winds usually blow towards Indian side so if Pakistan is nuked even then India is screwed.In any case, the people who will survive nuclear war will wish they had died in blast.Nuclear war cannot be fought or won by any two nuclear armed states, if they do, then it will be MAD or Mutually Assured Destruction, especially when the two powers like India and Pakistan are next door neighbours. In the South Asia context, wind patterns, close geographical proximity, and almost zero warning time renders any nuclear exchange unthinkable, unless the Indians are thinking of shifting to the Moon or Mars on a permanent basis. Only then can they be prepared for a nuclear war with Pakistan.

I hope you are aware that the Indian Subcontinent gets two Monsoon Rains i.e. South West Monsoon and North East Monsoon.

In the First Case the SW Winds travel up to the Gangetic Plain from where they are deflected and take a North Westerly direction towards Pakistan and Afghanistan.

In the Second Case the NE Winds travel from Tibet etc. to India.

Thus the reality is exactly apposed to your assumptions.

IOW : Pakistan will suffer from Dropping Nuclear Bombs on India however all Indian Nuclear Attacks on Pakistan will carry the "Radiation + Fissile Material" (please correct my terminology) towards Afghanistan etc.

A School Book on Geography should suffice.
 
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