PAKISTAN POSITIONING JF-17 FOR GROUND ATTACK ROLE

[Aasimkhan]

This is strange thing to say and explains how you don't understand close air support. Precision bombs and laser guided weapons are very often used in CAS missions. So basically, you don't know the A B C of what you are talking about but writing rubbish with "be realistic" and "be..."

Please try again.

Can you name a few precision and laser guided weapons you intend firing from your obsolete F7s while being flown by retired army aviation pilots? I will agree with you NATO uses many different combinations of load-outs possible for a CAS mission, but in general, these include Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAMs or GPS-guided bombs), Laser Guided Bombs (LGBs), General Purpose Bombs (GP or Dumb Bombs), Maverick missiles, and the Gun but in my humble opinion our most of these weapons will not be able to be fired by outdated obsolete f7s. The primary weapon in our case will be free flight rockets and straffing by cannon. Both these weapons need LOW LEVEL attack runs which will be very expensive. At a time when India is planning DRONE SWARMS why would you suggest such an old out dated method of warfare ? Let me clarify one point here please, my aim is NOT to make fun of anybody. My aim is to learn from your knowledge.

 

[Mithridates]

so Pakistan has no A2G missiles or bombs to arm it's f-7s?? I'm sure it has noting to do with the age of aircraft.

 

[MIRauf]

PAF F-7(P,PG)s are mostly Point Defense A2A.

 

[Mithridates]

PAF F-7(P,PG)s are mostly Point Defense A2A.

it's not that hard to integrate AGM-65 to an structure:

 

[Aasimkhan]

it's not that hard to integrate AGM-65 to an structure:
View attachment 569379

After 2 or 3 planes are shot down in the initial CAS missions on the opening day of war no outdated planes will come for low level flights for rocketing and strafing. Indian point AD is strong and potent. You will have to climb higher, use smart weapons for surgical results. Using out dated planes with out dated tactics and weapons with retired army aviation pilots (lol) inside them is like using 2nd world war tactics in a 21st century air war is the most ridiculous idea ever imagined. it will be bloody costly in terms of life as well as finances and in the end it will prove counter productive.

 

[Armchair]

Let's ignore the fellow, that's the best we can do. @araz

Now, imagine that there is a large integrated battle group headed towards Pakistan, somewhere between Punjab and Sindh. PA is short in numbers in this sector, and Pak refuses to go nuclear.

What could such a force do?

Retired PAF pilots could come in, drop cluster munitions and even engage in precision strike against such a force. The Pak desert does not allow entering enemy forces to scatter too far. It creates a kind of situation that allowed even lightly armed Gazelles to cause havoc with Israeli forces in its war against Syria / Lebanon.

In contested airspace, one never flies at medium altitude and lobs bombs from there. The SOP is to stay low, pop up, discharge and again fly low. The impact of two squadrons of such planes would be to devastate the enemy IBGs, even in a few passes. No doubt, losses can also be sustained, as was seen in virtually all situations were CAS was conducted in contested airspace, rather than uncontested ones. But the impact has always been decisive.

This is why so many forces keep CAS aircraft and attack helicopters. This was also the standard NATO tactic of dealing with mass, rapid moving Soviet armor. This is why aircraft such as the A-10, Harrier and AMX were designed, even though they would have to face serious Soviet SAMs and point defense fighters, outnumbering them.

The Europeans and Americans were not mad to do so. It is just common sense that CAS aircraft are highly effective in dealing with armor, and deadly, viciously deadly against concentrated armour.

Within Pak airspace, they will have some level of protection from PAF as well. However, common sense is not always common. Nor is thinking outside of the convention always respected. @MastanKhan

 

[MastanKhan]

Let's ignore the fellow, that's the best we can do. @araz

Now, imagine that there is a large integrated battle group headed towards Pakistan, somewhere between Punjab and Sindh. PA is short in numbers in this sector, and Pak refuses to go nuclear.

What could such a force do?

Retired PAF pilots could come in, drop cluster munitions and even engage in precision strike against such a force. The Pak desert does not allow entering enemy forces to scatter too far. It creates a kind of situation that allowed even lightly armed Gazelles to cause havoc with Israeli forces in its war against Syria / Lebanon.

In contested airspace, one never flies at medium altitude and lobs bombs from there. The SOP is to stay low, pop up, discharge and again fly low. The impact of two squadrons of such planes would be to devastate the enemy IBGs, even in a few passes. No doubt, losses can also be sustained, as was seen in virtually all situations were CAS was conducted in contested airspace, rather than uncontested ones. But the impact has always been decisive.

This is why so many forces keep CAS aircraft and attack helicopters. This was also the standard NATO tactic of dealing with mass, rapid moving Soviet armor. This is why aircraft such as the A-10, Harrier and AMX were designed, even though they would have to face serious Soviet SAMs and point defense fighters, outnumbering them.

The Europeans and Americans were not mad to do so. It is just common sense that CAS aircraft are highly effective in dealing with armor, and deadly, viciously deadly against concentrated armour.

Within Pak airspace, they will have some level of protection from PAF as well. However, common sense is not always common. Nor is thinking outside of the convention always respected. @MastanKhan

Hi,

There is no place for outdated aircraft---they are sitting ducks---.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

There is no place for outdated aircraft---they are sitting ducks---.

Hi MK, are you disagreeing the the CAS mission as a whole, or are you saying that the aircraft being suggested (F-7PGs and Mirages) are not going to cut the mark? In case of the latter, what exactly would? Because they can both be used for precision strike and for using cluster and other munitions widely used for ground pounding.

Remember, that by some accounts the JH-7As are also outdated. But they can still "do the job". As are the latest A-5s of the PLAAF, which have precision strike capability. How could you qualify your statement?

 

[MIRauf]

Why not use CH-5 type UAV, load them up with AR-1 / HJ-10 A2G Missile and call it a day. If one gets shot down, you lose $2/3 Million without human losses, if you manage to take out 2/4 ground targets then they almost paid for it. The Desk Jokey would be able to taken on another UAV and rinse and repeat until its over, runs out of UAV or the command center gets taken out.

If CH-5 is too slow, can seek out ANKA, if that slow too then see if you can get hold of Sharp Sword Stealth UAV.

 

[MastanKhan]

Let's ignore the fellow, that's the best we can do. @araz

Now, imagine that there is a large integrated battle group headed towards Pakistan, somewhere between Punjab and Sindh. PA is short in numbers in this sector, and Pak refuses to go nuclear.

What could such a force do?

Retired PAF pilots could come in, drop cluster munitions and even engage in precision strike against such a force. The Pak desert does not allow entering enemy forces to scatter too far. It creates a kind of situation that allowed even lightly armed Gazelles to cause havoc with Israeli forces in its war against Syria / Lebanon.

In contested airspace, one never flies at medium altitude and lobs bombs from there. The SOP is to stay low, pop up, discharge and again fly low. The impact of two squadrons of such planes would be to devastate the enemy IBGs, even in a few passes. No doubt, losses can also be sustained, as was seen in virtually all situations were CAS was conducted in contested airspace, rather than uncontested ones. But the impact has always been decisive.

This is why so many forces keep CAS aircraft and attack helicopters. This was also the standard NATO tactic of dealing with mass, rapid moving Soviet armor. This is why aircraft such as the A-10, Harrier and AMX were designed, even though they would have to face serious Soviet SAMs and point defense fighters, outnumbering them.

The Europeans and Americans were not mad to do so. It is just common sense that CAS aircraft are highly effective in dealing with armor, and deadly, viciously deadly against concentrated armour.

Within Pak airspace, they will have some level of protection from PAF as well. However, common sense is not always common. Nor is thinking outside of the convention always respected. @MastanKhan

Hi,

In your scenario of not going nuc if sindh & punjab are taken---first of all---for a nuc power---that is neither feasible nor practical---.

The scenario is not realistic---.

If you reach that stage---then you are better off laying down your arms and making peace---because of the FLATLANDS are already captured---there is not reason for further destruction of life and land---.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi MK, are you disagreeing the the CAS mission as a whole, or are you saying that the aircraft being suggested (F-7PGs and Mirages) are not going to cut the mark? In case of the latter, what exactly would? Because they can both be used for precision strike and for using cluster and other munitions widely used for ground pounding.

Remember, that by some accounts the JH-7As are also outdated. But they can still "do the job". As are the latest A-5s of the PLAAF, which have precision strike capability. How could you qualify your statement?

Hi,

You have to change the scenario and change the message---.

This current day warfare is totally different than what it was like before---.

With all this beautiful network of roads that you see---what you---not you---but what pakistan has done is given the enemy an expedited way to reach and take all your major cities within hours---.

So---the order of the battle has changed---. Just like we have BVR air combat---we cannot wait for the enemy to cross over the LOC or the national boundary line---.

Over there---if you can launch standoff weapons from 50-100 miles from inside of your territory---then the threat ASPECT of the enemy strike changes from LOC to 50 miles behind of it---.

So---similarly---a quick deployment enemy column can produce shock results in pakistan with all those wide 4 and 6 lane highways---.

Now the declaration of a nuc strike is a must foreseen conclusion---but the timing of this strike needs to change---.

Not like the DECLARED intent of the coward Kh Asif---" we will launch nucs within our boundaries---.

No---we will launch nucs at you if your main strike columns get within 5 miles of the LOC or the boundary line on your side---.

We will reserve the right to do a pre-empted strike once we ascertain that you have a massive buildup of force which may not be contained once you start moving---.

The JH7A type aircraft are not for pounding the enemy troops and columns---but for giving tactical advantage to pakistan---by doing strikes on my favorite target on the enemy coastline and giving protection to pakistan's coastline from enemy ships---.

Retd aircraft and retd pilots---are no match against enemy fire power---

 

[Thorough Pro]

Totally agree.

I don't believe what Kh Asif said was/is the actual doctrine, just a cover up story for battlefield nukes, but a weird and lame story though.

Not like the DECLARED intent of the coward Kh Asif---" we will launch nucs within our boundaries---.

No---we will launch nucs at you if your main strike columns get within 5 miles of the LOC or the boundary line on your side---.

 

[Aasimkhan]

This is exactly i have trying to tell this armchair guy. He needs to understand future war is about UAVs and drone swarms but alas he just wouldn't understand.

 

[Aasimkhan]

Only if you will stop giving examples of NATO against Iraq and Israel against lebanon and syria, You are comparing oranges with apples while comparing these incidents with an indo-Pak war. They were all one-sided contests. NATO and Israel achieve AIR SUPREMACY also including a complete SEAD (SUPPRESSION OF ENEMY AIR DEFENCES) in the air first, only then such CAS is possible, and NOT otherwise. In case of of Indo-Pak war you will be very lucky if you are able to achieve a FAVOURABLE AIR SITUATION in time and space. Most of the ground action will be under hostile enemy air. The area will be infested with SHORADS, LOMADS and after arrival of S400 HIMADS as well. PAF will be busy fighting the IAF for air superiority, or atleast a air parity. Dedicated CAS will be difficult, though not impossible. Your Cobras will be fighting enemy armour alongwith ATGMs on ground. Artillery and Surface to Surface rockets and missiles will be fired, high altitude smart munitions will be used for battle field as well as strategic interdiction. CAS will also be difficult for the enemy till the time your field formations run out of missiles and AAA ammo. stay low, pop up, discharge and again fly low is an obsolete technique and in Ravi-Chenab and Ravi-Bias corridor you IR missiles will have a field day bringing down the enemy planes. Expect the same from the enemy in case you still want to go for CAS with outdated planes and retired aviation pilots (I dont know how you got this idea of using retired aviation pilots, may be you thinking they have poor eye sight as compared to serving ones) and how you assumed that aviation pilots find it easy to fly F7s (and why not retired F7 pilots to fly F7s), it all does not make any sense

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

In your scenario of not going nuc if sindh & punjab are taken---first of all---for a nuc power---that is neither feasible nor practical---.

The scenario is not realistic---.

If you reach that stage---then you are better off laying down your arms and making peace---because of the FLATLANDS are already captured---there is not reason for further destruction of life and land---.

There is a barren desert here, and "empty space". The traditional planned scenario is for PA to give ground in this area. If you look at satellite pictures, you will see that the defense lines that PA has prepared is way back, ceding desert territory in case of an attack.

This is where Nasr is planned to be used. What I am saying is that CAS would be very effective as well, and would be a conventional deterrent rather than Nasr.

You have to understand that PA is not giving away any valuable flatlands. They are giving away (and this is their traditional doctrine for the last 50 years) land which is largely not populated, and mostly impassable.

You see, this desert land is not like other deserts. It is a desert that has a very unique kind of sand. The kind of sand that bogs you down. Doesn't allow free movement of armor. Creates bottleneck of troops and armor.

Flat desert. Nowhere to hide. bottlenecked and bogged. Inside enemy territory (for the Indians).

And then a flight of F-7PGs and Mirages show up, dropping precision munition and cluster bombs.

Think of the impact of this. It would be devastating. Think of their supply lines stretching through this inhospitable desert.

You have to have vision to see the benefit in this.

Perhaps @Signalian would be able to add to what the PA is facing in this terrain. It is a very unique terrain and only professional soldiers who have been in this terrain understand it.

Now, future armored warfare against "Cold Start" is expected to take place not only in the desert but the land between the plains of punjab and the desert. You see, the desert does not end abruptly nor the plains begin abruptly. Between this terrain, and in the desert, it is expected that someday, an Indian integrated battle group could show up. PA has been preparing for this in a myriad of ways. Including with both conventional and unconventional Nasr.

What I am adding is that in such a terrain, CAS would be immensely effective as a conventional deterrent. Whether one is lobbing precision munition or cluster munition. One does not need long range for this mission, nor long loiter time.

Even if you lost 10 percent or 20 percent of your CAS aircraft, if you could destroy 30% of enemy armor, you would have achieved enough to have made it worthwhile x 3 times over.

One has to understand that such an armored thrust would be the tip of the spear for India. Damaging that tip would be of vital interest to Pakistan.