PAKISTAN POSITIONING JF-17 FOR GROUND ATTACK ROLE

[AsifIjaz]

Guys, Jf17 ground attack thread...... please open a separate thread
@Horus @waz @Arsalan

 

[Arsalan]

Guys, Jf17 ground attack thread...... please open a separate thread
@Horus @waz @Arsalan

This is a separate thread dear. Lets keep the discussion here rather than opening multiple new threads

Titled
PAKISTAN POSITIONING JF-17 FOR GROUND ATTACK ROLE

Lets keep the discussion here rather than opening multiple new threads

 

[Blacklight]

This is a separate thread dear. Lets keep the discussion here rather than opening multiple new threads

Titled
PAKISTAN POSITIONING JF-17 FOR GROUND ATTACK ROLE

Lets keep the discussion here rather than opening multiple new threads

Sir, I think what the gentleman was implying at, was, that this thread should be restricted to discussing the JF-17 and a new thread should be opened for @MastanKhan & @Vortex's extremely interesting discourse.

 

[Arsalan]

Sir, I think what the gentleman was implying at, was, that this thread should be restricted to discussing the JF-17 and a new thread should be opened for @MastanKhan & @Vortex's extremely interesting discourse.

I didn not checked the previous posts, sorry for that.

However i agree that all members should stick to the topic which is JF-17 in ground attack role.

 

[AsifIjaz]

Sir, I think what the gentleman was implying at, was, that this thread should be restricted to discussing the JF-17 and a new thread should be opened for @MastanKhan & @Vortex's extremely interesting discourse.

Thank you very much for the clarification bro... that is exactly what i meant that all itch for imparting knowledge and view points should be handled outside jf17 thread. thank u

 

[Armchair]

Ground attack usually implies CAS (Close Air Support) or Strike. The latter can be low level penetration strike over contested airspace, or lobbing precision munition from a distance, or a combination of both.

We have to figure out what kind of JFT we really want. Ideally, to make a JFT that is CAS:

1. Up armor it, keep it cheap and rugged
2. Make it more survivable with alternative fuel lines

For Strike:

Make a JFT ROSE and add standoff munitions.

I personally feel that CAS has been severely undervalued. Cold Start can be turned into fried chicken wings with 2 squadrons of CAS aircraft. These do not even need to be new aircraft. They could be J-7PG or Mirages.

Retired from PAF service, such aircraft would go through a final overhaul and be put in PAA (Pak Army Aviation) service, piloted by recently retired reserve pilots.

The Naysayer would say - "but they won't have enough airframe life left to keep them flying"

And the response to this is that, such aircraft will not be flown as frequently as the PAF flies them - which is about 200 - 300 hours a year. They will be flown as little as 20 hours a year.
Pilots will remain current using simulators and trainer aircraft mostly, and only minimally use these aircraft.

Training requirement would also be minimal, because they are basically practicing some simple and basic CAS flights - releasing a limited set of munitions over Invading Indian formations over the Thar desert. A flight pass.

Eventually, a low end block I JFT could find itself playing a similar role.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Ground attack usually implies CAS (Close Air Support) or Strike. The latter can be low level penetration strike over contested airspace, or lobbing precision munition from a distance, or a combination of both.

We have to figure out what kind of JFT we really want. Ideally, to make a JFT that is CAS:

1. Up armor it, keep it cheap and rugged
2. Make it more survivable with alternative fuel lines

For Strike:

Make a JFT ROSE and add standoff munitions.

I personally feel that CAS has been severely undervalued. Cold Start can be turned into fried chicken wings with 2 squadrons of CAS aircraft. These do not even need to be new aircraft. They could be J-7PG or Mirages.

Retired from PAF service, such aircraft would go through a final overhaul and be put in PAA (Pak Army Aviation) service, piloted by recently retired reserve pilots.

The Naysayer would say - "but they won't have enough airframe life left to keep them flying"

And the response to this is that, such aircraft will not be flown as frequently as the PAF flies them - which is about 200 - 300 hours a year. They will be flown as little as 20 hours a year.
Pilots will remain current using simulators and trainer aircraft mostly, and only minimally use these aircraft.

Training requirement would also be minimal, because they are basically practicing some simple and basic CAS flights - releasing a limited set of munitions over Invading Indian formations over the Thar desert. A flight pass.

Eventually, a low end block I JFT could find itself playing a similar role.

The problem with this is, F-7s have a miserable A-G load out. Any CAS aircraft would need a lot more payload as well as loiter capability vs what the Mig offers.
We could potentially do what you state with Mirages, though they are going to be in frontline service for another decade at the minimum after which you probably need to account for additional resources to keep a large fleet airworthy, esp one that is not flying very much. As counter intuitive it might sound, you can just imagine the requirements to keep these jets airworthy; large number of trained manpower that would be working on these jets only as existing ground crew would be reoriented towards other jets. Physical space and infrastructure to keep these jets in an airworthy condition while leaving enough space for current operational squadrons. Long-term inventory planning and manufacturing of parts and PAC rebuild factories will not be overhauling Mirages once retired from active duty and that space and machinery would be used for JF-17, AZM or whatever else replaces them in service. These are just some of the fat costs I thought of, but once you get into the nitty gritty, you would probably find keeping these planes in any reserve force would prove to be too costly with marginal returns if any.
That is also why you dont see other air forces taking this sort of an approach.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Hi,

It is upto pakistan to understand that the need for an independent pakistani battle groups in the GCC is not going to fade away---.

It was the need of the day yesterday---it will be the need of the hour for today---and its utility would not come down tomorrow---.

So---looking at the GCC---you cannot go cheap on them---you need to go for the max---.

You need to have a naval battle group---you need to have Type 054---052---F22p type frigates to project power---and smaller missile boats to cover shallow areas and to maintain and manage your ocean environment---.

You also need submarines for the GCC---you will ask for what---GCC is desert---but it has ocean / water all around it---.

It needs its separate air force---JF17 BLK3 standards---SU34 or JH7A's---.

It needs tanks and heavy guns---basically a totally independent battle group.

The majority of the army has to be from one region---ie---pakistan---so that the commander has total control over his troops---.

What the goal of this battle group is to keep trouble away from the land of GCC and cover and contain it right away if something un-towards starts up---.

You would ask why---if there is no trouble popping up in GCC---it will keep trouble away from pakistan---.

As some countries have NATO---we need to have a PGATO---Pakistan Gulf Alliance Treaty Organization---.

For me---the minimum troop count should be 100K distributed to 3 regions---each independent quick deployment force---with a very very special emphasis on a naval force---. You control the supply line---you control the battle---.

The troops should be given the option for requesting permanent residence for their immediate spouses and children---. A condition of at least one child in that military force a must for the future---.

With this one step---we have gained between 1 million to 2 million new jobs in pakistan and GCC---.

Our weapons sales exports to GCC would go up sharply and off course the GCC would be paying for all the equipment and salaries etc etc etc---.

But all this depends on pakistan seeing the light and presenting it to GCC---.

Fortune favors the brave!! The Pak folks might have tons of flaws, follies and fallacies, but boldness shouldn't be in a short supply for this "Hard Country"!!! This security area arrangement should be a tens of billions of dollars venture!! Leveraging all the clever folks - Beni Israil, Persians, Anglo Saxons etc. - is the "singularity of purpose" job of the leaders possessing the resolve of steel and the reasoning with a cold blooded accuracy!! Sultan Abdul Hamid Han, Jinnah etc. belonged to that catagory...

 

[SQ8]

Ground attack usually implies CAS (Close Air Support) or Strike. The latter can be low level penetration strike over contested airspace, or lobbing precision munition from a distance, or a combination of both.

We have to figure out what kind of JFT we really want. Ideally, to make a JFT that is CAS:

1. Up armor it, keep it cheap and rugged
2. Make it more survivable with alternative fuel lines

For Strike:

Make a JFT ROSE and add standoff munitions.

I personally feel that CAS has been severely undervalued. Cold Start can be turned into fried chicken wings with 2 squadrons of CAS aircraft. These do not even need to be new aircraft. They could be J-7PG or Mirages.

Retired from PAF service, such aircraft would go through a final overhaul and be put in PAA (Pak Army Aviation) service, piloted by recently retired reserve pilots.

The Naysayer would say - "but they won't have enough airframe life left to keep them flying"

And the response to this is that, such aircraft will not be flown as frequently as the PAF flies them - which is about 200 - 300 hours a year. They will be flown as little as 20 hours a year.
Pilots will remain current using simulators and trainer aircraft mostly, and only minimally use these aircraft.

Training requirement would also be minimal, because they are basically practicing some simple and basic CAS flights - releasing a limited set of munitions over Invading Indian formations over the Thar desert. A flight pass.

Eventually, a low end block I JFT could find itself playing a similar role.

If you put a simple metal brace on an aircraft it changes its center of gravity, which in turn changes its flight behavior and how air interacts with it, and changes how it behaves with any additional weight on it.

Fuel lines or armor arent small changes and end up as costs, which is the problem overall anyway.

No resources are made out of thin air. Parked aircraft still need to be preserved through cleaning, some maintenance and engine runs. They have to be stored in an environment that doesn’t corrode, and they have to be kept ready for use.

Which is why we were charged to store our embargoed F-16s in the desert for so long and why even such old “spare use” airframes will be a drain on resources that don’t exist or are better utilized for higher RoI programs.

 

[Armchair]

If you put a simple metal brace on an aircraft it changes its center of gravity, which in turn changes its flight behavior and how air interacts with it, and changes how it behaves with any additional weight on it.

Fuel lines or armor arent small changes and end up as costs, which is the problem overall anyway.

No resources are made out of thin air. Parked aircraft still need to be preserved through cleaning, some maintenance and engine runs. They have to be stored in an environment that doesn’t corrode, and they have to be kept ready for use.

Which is why we were charged to store our embargoed F-16s in the desert for so long and why even such old “spare use” airframes will be a drain on resources that don’t exist or are better utilized for higher RoI programs.

If we are looking to uparmour a JFT designed for CAS, CoG will not be a major issue, as the armoring can be done to balance the weights to some extent. Also, new (well not so new) kevlar armoring used on the inside are relatively light weight.

Oscar, are you saying that such a second tier air force has already been considered in detail and the RoI failed to meet the requirements? As far as I know, such a study of having PAA to use fixed wing as a tier 2 force, using semi-retired personnel, has never been done. But you may know better.

Now, if we can get it to them to do a serious analysis of how useful such a force can be, that would be something. Consider also that we don't necessarily need hardened shelters, we can use bare basic shelters for such aircraft, in present PAF bases.

The usefulness of such a force is this - the gap in southern punjab and northern sindh, were Cold Start and Indian formations are likely to create a problem, where our own formations are somewhat lacking in numbers in fact, that gap would have a solid backup plan beyond the Nasr. If the impact of airpower is not meeting RoI, then one needs to re-evaluate such assertions, given how wars today are fought, and what we saw during the Gulf wars (I and II).

Open desert.

Air power.

No brainer.

 

[Aasimkhan]

Ground attack usually implies CAS (Close Air Support) or Strike. The latter can be low level penetration strike over contested airspace, or lobbing precision munition from a distance, or a combination of both.

We have to figure out what kind of JFT we really want. Ideally, to make a JFT that is CAS:

1. Up armor it, keep it cheap and rugged
2. Make it more survivable with alternative fuel lines

For Strike:

Make a JFT ROSE and add standoff munitions.

I personally feel that CAS has been severely undervalued. Cold Start can be turned into fried chicken wings with 2 squadrons of CAS aircraft. These do not even need to be new aircraft. They could be J-7PG or Mirages.

Retired from PAF service, such aircraft would go through a final overhaul and be put in PAA (Pak Army Aviation) service, piloted by recently retired reserve pilots.

The Naysayer would say - "but they won't have enough airframe life left to keep them flying"

And the response to this is that, such aircraft will not be flown as frequently as the PAF flies them - which is about 200 - 300 hours a year. They will be flown as little as 20 hours a year.
Pilots will remain current using simulators and trainer aircraft mostly, and only minimally use these aircraft.

Training requirement would also be minimal, because they are basically practicing some simple and basic CAS flights - releasing a limited set of munitions over Invading Indian formations over the Thar desert. A flight pass.

Eventually, a low end block I JFT could find itself playing a similar role.

Your ideas are nice but unrealistic, you can't uparmour jf17 it will increase the load. You don't need jf17 rose as the current avionics it has are sufficient. Modern battle field needs drones and precession missiles, days of cas are almost gone especially when enemy has shorads with field formations, not to.mention the lomads and himads cover. Attack helicopters are also important as they can loiter on the battle field. Deep and strategic interdiction May be possible but CAS with current machines is difficult, yes if u have A10 warthogs then scenario will be different.

 

[Armchair]

Your ideas are nice but unrealistic, you can't uparmour jf17 it will increase the load. You don't need jf17 rose as the current avionics it has are sufficient. Modern battle field needs drones and precession missiles, days of cas are almost gone especially when enemy has shorads with field formations, not to.mention the lomads and himads cover. Attack helicopters are also important as they can loiter on the battle field. Deep and strategic interdiction May be possible but CAS with current machines is difficult, yes if u have A10 warthogs then scenario will be different.

It may be better if you explain your ideas better than make blanket statements. Anyone can write high-sounding posts, it takes intellect and experience to show that you really can understand what you are talking about.

The problem with this is, F-7s have a miserable A-G load out. Any CAS aircraft would need a lot more payload as well as loiter capability vs what the Mig offers.
We could potentially do what you state with Mirages, though they are going to be in frontline service for another decade at the minimum after which you probably need to account for additional resources to keep a large fleet airworthy, esp one that is not flying very much. As counter intuitive it might sound, you can just imagine the requirements to keep these jets airworthy; large number of trained manpower that would be working on these jets only as existing ground crew would be reoriented towards other jets. Physical space and infrastructure to keep these jets in an airworthy condition while leaving enough space for current operational squadrons. Long-term inventory planning and manufacturing of parts and PAC rebuild factories will not be overhauling Mirages once retired from active duty and that space and machinery would be used for JF-17, AZM or whatever else replaces them in service. These are just some of the fat costs I thought of, but once you get into the nitty gritty, you would probably find keeping these planes in any reserve force would prove to be too costly with marginal returns if any.
That is also why you dont see other air forces taking this sort of an approach.

Hi GriffinsRule,

Pakistan has a very specific problem with facing Indian battle formations in Cold Start type assaults. Particularly in the area from Southern Punjab to Northern Sindh. This area opens the possibility fo both maneuver warfare, and a relatively lower presence of PA in defending Pak territory. Further, it is strategically sensitive as it hits Pak at her thinnest waistline.

We aren't going to be loitering over long far away distances. We will be doing strikes on Indian formations, fast and hard and getting out, in a territory rather close to our PAF bases. Such situations, and similar ones, would not tax the F-7PGs with range issues. A massive munitions load would be nice to have, but the loadout is not bad on the PGs with the mission in mind.

Of course, Mirages would also be considered.

As I have pointed out, such aircraft would not need much repair or maintenance as they will be minimally used and maintained. They would not need HAS, simple hangars could suffice. They may even be flown by a new class of semi-retired pilots.

Again, all these factors negate the arguments put forward regarding cost, unsuitability of range and usefulness. Airpower is just about the most useful thing you can use against invading formations of armor in open desert. Even the dumbest dud would know that after Iraq.

 

[Aasimkhan]

It may be better if you explain your ideas better than make blanket statements. Anyone can write high-sounding posts, it takes intellect and experience to show that you really can understand what you are talking about.



Hi GriffinsRule,

Pakistan has a very specific problem with facing Indian battle formations in Cold Start type assaults. Particularly in the area from Southern Punjab to Northern Sindh. This area opens the possibility fo both maneuver warfare, and a relatively lower presence of PA in defending Pak territory. Further, it is strategically sensitive as it hits Pak at her thinnest waistline.

We aren't going to be loitering over long far away distances. We will be doing strikes on Indian formations, fast and hard and getting out, in a territory rather close to our PAF bases. Such situations, and similar ones, would not tax the F-7PGs with range issues. A massive munitions load would be nice to have, but the loadout is not bad on the PGs with the mission in mind.

Of course, Mirages would also be considered.

As I have pointed out, such aircraft would not need much repair or maintenance as they will be minimally used and maintained. They would not need HAS, simple hangars could suffice. They may even be flown by a new class of semi-retired pilots.

Again, all these factors negate the arguments put forward regarding cost, unsuitability of range and usefulness. Airpower is just about the most useful thing you can use against invading formations of armor in open desert. Even the dumbest dud would know that after Iraq.

I am sorry if I wasn't able to clearly spell out my thoughts. But I must say that your idea of using older planes with retired pilots operating under the nose of a superior air force, in numbers alt least, is simply foolish.
Don't compare the scenario of USAF in Iraq with IAF and PAF fight. Iraqis had nothing to fight back with. India and Pak both have formidable SAM and AAA weapons in their field formations. Close air support with rockets and cannons will be a blood bath for pilots. Be realistic. I have seen with my own eyes after first two initial clashes in Kargil IAF simply discarded close support and climbed o high altitude precision bombing with laser guideds. If you want to get pilots killed unnecessarily without results its your idea of warfare not.mine.

Your idea of Army Aviation Corps flying fighter jets is novel if not stupid. Do you have some idea what kind of logistical nightmares are you talking of? It took us 70 years to develop the current resources. How many years will Army take to fly older obsolete fighter aircraft by retired aviators whereas we already have a professional air force ? And why do you need a parallel system ?

If we are looking to uparmour a JFT designed for CAS, CoG will not be a major issue, as the armoring can be done to balance the weights to some extent. Also, new (well not so new) kevlar armoring used on the inside are relatively light weight.

Oscar, are you saying that such a second tier air force has already been considered in detail and the RoI failed to meet the requirements? As far as I know, such a study of having PAA to use fixed wing as a tier 2 force, using semi-retired personnel, has never been done. But you may know better.

Now, if we can get it to them to do a serious analysis of how useful such a force can be, that would be something. Consider also that we don't necessarily need hardened shelters, we can use bare basic shelters for such aircraft, in present PAF bases.

The usefulness of such a force is this - the gap in southern punjab and northern sindh, were Cold Start and Indian formations are likely to create a problem, where our own formations are somewhat lacking in numbers in fact, that gap would have a solid backup plan beyond the Nasr. If the impact of airpower is not meeting RoI, then one needs to re-evaluate such assertions, given how wars today are fought, and what we saw during the Gulf wars (I and II).

Open desert.

Air power.

No brainer.

 

[Armchair]

I have seen with my own eyes after first two initial clashes in Kargil IAF simply discarded close support and climbed o high altitude precision bombing with laser guideds.

This is strange thing to say and explains how you don't understand close air support. Precision bombs and laser guided weapons are very often used in CAS missions. So basically, you don't know the A B C of what you are talking about but writing rubbish with "be realistic" and "be..."

Please try again.

 

[araz]

This is strange thing to say and explains how you don't understand close air support. Precision bombs and laser guided weapons are very often used in CAS missions. So basically, you don't know the A B C of what you are talking about but writing rubbish with "be realistic" and "be..."

Please try again.

Please refrain from personal insuilts and instead counter argue points raised. You have the right to disagree but not the right to denigrate. It make the forum very unpleasant place to be.
Regards
A
PS: The request is to all posters not particularly directed at you. Your post has just been quoted as one of many such examples.
Regards
A