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Pakistan nowhere in Obama visit to region

It is as much Pakistan's war as it is America's war if not more...much more.

For most of the time out of these 9 years our policy makers were also telling us the same and we had been believing the same but now when US forces are in bed with Taliban transporting them to Kabul in official NATO aircraft then now its time for us to wake up. This was NOT our war.
 
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It did not have to be war to begin with. Bob Woodward's book points out that Pakistani intelligence argued that war and invasion was not the answer and that the Taliban could be convinced to come to an agreement that resulted in the trial of OBL. The Taliban themselves offered the possibility of having OBL prosecuted in Afghanistan or a mutually acceptable third country - but they were not willing to just hand him over to the US on the basis of US demands.

These were all sensible proposals that might have avoided the tens of thousands of lives lost so far in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and the spike of extremism in the region, Pakistan specifically. Pakistanis are justified in feeling resentful at being dragged into this mess by a blundering and war-mongering US.

We would never know whether the plan suggested by Pakistan would have worked or not. Or there could have been a few more 9/11s if the Taliban setup in Afghanistan was not scattered..

The base assumption for NATO going into Afg was that Mullah Omar was hand in glove with Osama and that has yet not been discarded.

The problem is that the West sees Taliban (most of them) and Al Queda as indistinguishable where as Pakistan wants to preserve Taliban in Afghanistan as a strategic asset. And there in lies the conflict of interests..
 
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A little curious about the 'Israel' part though - how does that impact relations with Pakistan?
In general it cements the impression that the US is anti-Muslim, and plays into the existing anti-American sentiment in Pakistan based on the US-Pak relationship over the years.
 
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In general it cements the impression that the US is anti-Muslim, and plays into the existing anti-American sentiment in Pakistan based on the US-Pak relationship over the years.


US has very good relation with GCC countries though, so how it is perceived as anti Muslim?
 
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We would never know whether the plan suggested by Pakistan would have worked or not. Or there could have been a few more 9/11s if the Taliban setup in Afghanistan was not scattered..
We certainly cannot tell whether a plan would work if we do not try it out ... We do know that there were offers along those lines from Taliban representatives, which were dismissed by the US which demanded an unconditional hand over of OBL to US custody.

And the argument that 'we would have had more 9/11's' is a scaremongering canard. Al Qaeda still has, and had, plenty of locations to plan out of. What has prevented more 9/11's is domestic US security and surveillance. The 9/11 hijackers got their flight training in the US. They merely got their motivation from AQ, and people like them continue to get their motivation from AQ, over the internet and other medium. The planning and motivation can still be done out of a house in Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan or Pakistan - you do not need a Taliban controlled Afghanistan to do it.
The base assumption for NATO going into Afg was that Mullah Omar was hand in glove with Osama and that has yet not been discarded.

The problem is that the West sees Taliban (most of them) and Al Queda as indistinguishable where as Pakistan wants to preserve Taliban in Afghanistan as a strategic asset. And there in lies the conflict of interests..
The base assumption was invalid and has been called out as invalid by even many US analysts who argue (correctly) that the Taliban had no idea about OBL's plans. The reason this canard is not officially dropped by the US is because the US government continues to argue that the Afghan war is the 'good war'. It has already had its Iraq invasion discredited and been maligned for lying about its justifications. The US does not want to have its Afghan war also exposed to the reality that it was a hasty and careless venture that could have been avoided and saved a lot of blood and treasure.
 
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US has very good relation with GCC countries though, so how it is perceived as anti Muslim?

The US has good relations with the GCC rulers, most of whom are autocrats. The view on the Muslim street is quite different, based on US policies in the Mid-East and other Muslim countries.
 
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We certainly cannot tell whether a plan would work if we do not try it out ... We do know that there were offers along those lines from Taliban representatives, which were dismissed by the US which demanded an unconditional hand over of OBL to US custody.

And the argument that 'we would have had more 9/11's' is a scaremongering canard. Al Qaeda still has, and had, plenty of locations to plan out of. What has prevented more 9/11's is domestic US security and surveillance. The 9/11 hijackers got their flight training in the US. They merely got their motivation from AQ, and people like them continue to get their motivation from AQ, over the internet and other medium. The planning and motivation can still be done out of a house in Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan or Pakistan - you do not need a Taliban controlled Afghanistan to do it.

The base assumption was invalid and has been called out as invalid by even many US analysts who argue (correctly) that the Taliban had no idea about OBL's plans. The reason this canard is not officially dropped by the US is because the US government continues to argue that the Afghan war is the 'good war'. It has already had its Iraq invasion discredited and been maligned for lying about its justifications. The US does not want to have its Afghan war also exposed to the reality that it was a hasty and careless venture that could have been avoided and saved a lot of blood and treasure.


Guess I was not able to clearly articulate.. My bad..

My point was that now we will never know if the approach suggested by Pakistan would have worked or not since the ground realities are changed significantly. It could have succeeded or could have as easily failed and could have resulted in more attacks too.

While Taliban and AQ have not been finished, but can no longer operate at will as they could before the NATO attacks on Afg. Hence the operational capability has taken a deep dive. And obviously, the always maligned and accused of bigotism, US homeland security has played a significant role in preventing more attacks. Its always a multi proged approach..

The second part is still a conjuncture on your and some other american analysts' part. The jury is still out on that. America did get the egg on its face in Iraq, but Afghanistan is a different ball game.. For 1 american analyst that says that the war in Afg is not good, you will find 10 that say that USA should go into Pakistan to solve the terrorist menace as that is where the epicenter of terrorism is and is being protected by the Govt/Army/ISI of Pakistan. So these analyst comments are best left in the news papers only.
 
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Ah what nice coincident that you are aware of this forum and you dont know that your official govt and Pentagon is telling the world loud and clear they are transporting the same "terrorists who blew up NATO tankers" (to which you see so much cheering here) for talks in Kabul


But well just another American or just another Indian under American flag nevermind

Err.. sure I'm aware of this forum! You see, this forum happens to rank quite high on the google search results for certain terms. And I, being interested in the ****** situation, frequently google for information on this topic, which leads me to this forum quite frequently.

Going by the general anti-American sentiment here, an American would probably need to hide behind an Indian flag here instead of the other way round, don't you think? :cheesy:
 
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Guess I was not able to clearly articulate.. My bad..

My point was that now we will never know if the approach suggested by Pakistan would have worked or not since the ground realities are changed significantly. It could have succeeded or could have as easily failed and could have resulted in more attacks too.
The fact that a variation of the Pakistani proposal, talking with the Taliban, is now back on the table illustrates the fact that the Pakistani proposal was feasible and would have likely worked in 2001. That the Taliban were themselves making offers on prosecuting OBL supports the argument that an accommodation could have been reached with them on the issue, and war avoided.

Again, terrorists continue to be trained in multiple locations around the world. It is European and American domestic security, entry restrictions and cooperation with other nations that primarily continues to prevent further attacks. OBL does not have powers of teleportation, that he could use to magically transport terrorists to the US while negotiations between the Taliban and the US continued. This argument of 'could have had more attacks' is a scare-mongering canard as I pointed out.

While Taliban and AQ have not been finished, but can no longer operate at will as they could before the NATO attacks on Afg. Hence the operational capability has taken a deep dive. And obviously, the always maligned and accused of bigotism, US homeland security has played a significant role in preventing more attacks. Its always a multi proged approach..
The only party that was a threat to the West was Al Qaeda, not the Taliban. And Al Qaeda continues to recruit and train people - like I said, you do not need an entire country to do that. Secondly, had the US come to an agreement with the Taliban in 2001, the Taliban would have likely acted against terrorist groups far more effectively than NATO is currently (with none of the local backlash that the US faces as an occupation force) and Pakistan would have had an easier time cracking down on these groups as well.
The second part is still a conjuncture on your and some other american analysts' part. The jury is still out on that. America did get the egg on its face in Iraq, but Afghanistan is a different ball game.. For 1 american analyst that says that the war in Afg is not good, you will find 10 that say that USA should go into Pakistan to solve the terrorist menace as that is where the epicenter of terrorism is and is being protected by the Govt/Army/ISI of Pakistan. So these analyst comments are best left in the news papers only.
It has been almost ten years now. There is not a shred of evidence to support the argument that Mullah Omar had any knowledge of OBL's plans to target the West in terrorist attacks.
 
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Err.. sure I'm aware of this forum! You see, this forum happens to rank quite high on the google search results for certain terms. And I, being interested in the ****** situation, frequently google for information on this topic, which leads me to this forum quite frequently.

Going by the general anti-American sentiment here, an American would probably need to hide behind an Indian flag here instead of the other way round, don't you think? :cheesy:

No its the indians who hide behind flags of other countries..... u want the truth we r telling u abt it!

Abt the taliban and NATO..... wat does this say?
Afghan President Hamid Karzai Confirms Ongoing Talks With Taliban - wjz.com

DAWN.COM | World | US confirms Saudi role in talks with Taliban

US confirms and backs Afghan talks with Taliban - Hindustan Times


Also u accuse us of supporting tali f*ckers while its us paying the price of the AMERICAN INVASION OF AFGHANISTAN AND HER WAR OF TERROR?
WMDs was another good one.
 
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The base assumption was invalid and has been called out as invalid by even many US analysts who argue (correctly) that the Taliban had no idea about OBL's plans. The reason this canard is not officially dropped by the US is because the US government continues to argue that the Afghan war is the 'good war'. It has already had its Iraq invasion discredited and been maligned for lying about its justifications. The US does not want to have its Afghan war also exposed to the reality that it was a hasty and careless venture that could have been avoided and saved a lot of blood and treasure.

The timely assasination of Ahmad Shah Masoud due to his knowledge of the 9/11 plot seems to indicate that Al-Qaeda and Taliban may have very well been hand in glove....

Reasons being that the two parties to benefit from this were AQ and Taliban....
In addition, I find it hard to believe that at that point of time when Taliban was so powerful in Afg, that they would remain uninformed of an assasination plot or the reason behind it...
AQ had to be receiving protection from Taliban...
 
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WHY USA will send their president to Pakistan,when their normal senator Mullin can meet Prime minister and president and who ever he wants from Pakistan government and when he wants.There is no need to send president.
If Obama wants anything he will send a message to Mullin,or may be at the best send Hillary Clinton to Pakistan,and the purpose will be served..Why bother the president of USA.
 
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WHY USA will send their president to Pakistan,when their normal senator Mullin can meet Prime minister and president and who ever he wants from Pakistan government and when he wants.There is no need to send president.

Yes absolutely.. Even they can use a telephone/chat/e-mail/video conferencing etc etc :tup:
 
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The fact that a variation of the Pakistani proposal, talking with the Taliban, is now back on the table illustrates the fact that the Pakistani proposal was feasible and would have likely worked in 2001. That the Taliban were themselves making offers on prosecuting OBL supports the argument that an accommodation could have been reached with them on the issue, and war avoided.

2 Key differences..

1. Talks (details still sketchy) are happeneing not with the top leadership of Taliban. In 2001 there couldnt even have been a dream of a negotiation without MO included in that
2. At that time, Taliban was a govt in Afghanistan. Now they are a guerilla force acting as rebels.

Negotiations generally work better from a position of strength.

Again, terrorists continue to be trained in multiple locations around the world. It is European and American domestic security, entry restrictions and cooperation with other nations that primarily continues to prevent further attacks. OBL does not have powers of teleportation, that he could use to magically transport terrorists to the US while negotiations between the Taliban and the US continued. This argument of 'could have had more attacks' is a scare-mongering canard as I pointed out.
I think your response is simply trying to use key words instead of solid logic to prove a point. No large force operates from a single location. But the importance of HQ can not be underplayed. And specially if the HQ is whole country in itself.


The only party that was a threat to the West was Al Qaeda, not the Taliban. And Al Qaeda continues to recruit and train people - like I said, you do not need an entire country to do that. Secondly, had the US come to an agreement with the Taliban in 2001, the Taliban would have likely acted against terrorist groups far more effectively than NATO is currently (with none of the local backlash that the US faces as an occupation force) and Pakistan would have had an easier time cracking down on these groups as well.
There is still no evidence that Mullah Omar Taliban and AQ were / are not hand in glove. The only reason Pakistan is desperate to prove this is that without doing that Pakistan is losing its key asset i.e. Taliban along with the always wanted strategic deapth in Afghanistan.

It has been almost ten years now. There is not a shred of evidence to support the argument that Mullah Omar had any knowledge of OBL's plans to target the West in terrorist attacks.

And neither other way round. Also even if Taliban did not participate in the attack on WTC, they were the HQ for AQ who did. Thats bad enough to make the war good.

Also time is a little irrelevent in such cases. For example (a little off track though), its been 60 years since anything happened on Kashmir resolution. Doesnt mean Pakistan would discard it.. Would it?
 
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We certainly cannot tell whether a plan would work if we do not try it out ... We do know that there were offers along those lines from Taliban representatives, which were dismissed by the US which demanded an unconditional hand over of OBL to US custody.

And do you see anything wrong in their demand??? Aren't you expected to ask for an unconditional handover of a man responsible for killings of thousands of your fellow countrymen and eventually bringing your economic capital to a standstill resulting in loss of $$ billions????

And the argument that 'we would have had more 9/11's' is a scaremongering canard. Al Qaeda still has, and had, plenty of locations to plan out of.
You can't be serious about it....AF was turning out to be a sanctuary for Al-Qaeda and there propaganda mechanism was at its peak....The least you are supposed to do is break this sanctuary,no....What you seems to be saying is there is no way you can do anything about it, which is plane wrong, to say the least....

What has prevented more 9/11's is domestic US security and surveillance. The 9/11 hijackers got their flight training in the US. They merely got their motivation from AQ, and people like them continue to get their motivation from AQ, over the internet and other medium. The planning and motivation can still be done out of a house in Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, Afghanistan or Pakistan - you do not need a Taliban controlled Afghanistan to do it.
You cannot be more wrong on this...Terror camps is the place where you transform your cadets(read terrorist) into hard core killing machines...No internet/house can replace this fact....Taliban controlled AF was providing a safe sanctuary for Al-Qaeda and its likes and that was a serious threat.... People or shall i say Pigs who attacked mumbai were certainly not trained using internet, no???


The base assumption was invalid and has been called out as invalid by even many US analysts who argue (correctly) that the Taliban had no idea about OBL's plans. The reason this canard is not officially dropped by the US is because the US government continues to argue that the Afghan war is the 'good war'. It has already had its Iraq invasion discredited and been maligned for lying about its justifications. The US does not want to have its Afghan war also exposed to the reality that it was a hasty and careless venture that could have been avoided and saved a lot of blood and treasure.

You seems to be convinced that WOT initiated in AF is a mistake....There are equal number of analysts who say the exact opposite...The way majority criticize the lack of crystal clear defined goals the same way do agree with the need for invasion way back in 2001....See these debates are very subjective...let me share some examples

- Recent and almost succesful terror attack in New-York was a result of scripts written in Pakistan, no??? What i am trying to say is that strong domestic security and surveillance is not enough to ensure there will not be any more terror attacks....They at best can make job difficult....It is the safe heavens of terrorist that need to be removed along with strong domestic security which can make anyone feel safe...Earlier these people used to send recruits from outside but now they have started recruiting people within the country they want to target....In other words terrorists and their mentors will keep in changing their tactics and keep on innovating...

- When mumbai carnage was going on the handlers were directing terrorist on phone from Pakistan...So in short safe heavens do play a strong part in terror attacks

- Learn from your own experience in Banur...Your truce with terrorists did not last long, why??? Because once you start negotiating with terrorist you simply give up, may be with the noble intention of reducing blood bath and eating up of resources however you have to understand the phyche of so-called fundamentalists, they will not stop or let me say they cannot stop spreading fundamentalism/hatred otherwise their very own existence will come into question....

To conclude i will say that the need to hour is to keep on improving domestic security and keep on denying safe heavens to terrorists, both are equally important aspect of WOT...The more terrorist will be on run the better it would be for all of us....Also keep in mind the message this war has given to the world...if any country is found hand in glooves with terrorists that country will be invaded....I will try to bring your attention to latest remarks by many high profile US officials which is "if any succesful terror attack in united states is traced back to Pakistan then all bets are off"....
 
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