Pakistan not to accept extention in US. strikes

[SekrutYakhni]

"MANY American sources suggest that Afghani people (talibs) who fought with Soviets..."

This is wrong then. The afghan people who fought against the Soviets were the Mujahideen. Those mujahideen comprised far more than simply pashtu.

They included uzbek, tajik, hazara, and turkomen with whom we aren't at war today.

The taliban are a political phenomena that didn't arise from Oruzgan province until 1994 and didn't seize Afghan power until 1996. Never did America have a thing to do with the origins of the taliban nor their path to power.

"...were armed, financed, prepared by Americans..."

and many, many other countries whom are constantly forgotten by Pakistanis in their inaccurate rush to align us with OBL and the taliban.

More than anything, though, American assistance kept Pakistan from being openly attacked by the Soviet Union.

Thanks.

They included uzbek, tajik, hazara, and turkomen with whom we aren't at war today. This is wrong then. The afghan people who fought against the Soviets were the Mujahideen. Those mujahideen comprised far more than simply pashtu.

uzbek, tajik, hazara, and turkomen

hahaha
They also live in Afghanistan…. so I mentioned them Afghani people...

If not than United States of American can be United States of many countries...Irish, Pakistani…. list goes on...

Taliban is a phenomena which is present from a long time now...

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

what has the U.S. accomplished in Afghanistan since 2001?

I'm serious. Answer the question seriously, I'm ignorant on this subject and want to learn.

 

[S-2]

The taliban are a pashtu movement that was formed in 1994 in Oruzgan province and moved on to Kandahar.

The taliban movement remains a near-exclusively pashtu militancy.

Those are the bald facts. Use them as you will but try to learn them first.

 

[Barrett]

Somehow you boObs think that we're going to tolerate our enemies making war on Afghans and ourselves from your lands. Are you fools?

Somehow you gringos think we are going to buy your libelous stories, are You fools?
If anyone has waged a war upon the Afghans, it is you.

PREDATOR flies because you've chosen to toss away your rights of sovereignty when you permitted these men on your lands and have allowed them to stay there and wage war for eight years.

Eight long years and Taliban has taken you on a ride of your life, the very same cattle gazers have thwarted all your plans. Your comments are an expression of mere frustration because of nonfulfillment of your goals; the spectre of yet another defeat is haunting I’m sure

You have no rights on this issue. You've two choices that might be implemented together or separately- 1.) shoot them down and/or, 2.) cut off our supply lines.

I encourage you to do both.

This is the very same arrogant attitude that has brought you to this point, you can’t even sketch out a policy, more troops and withdrawal coming in the same speech. Make up your mind first, do you want to fight or run away?

They're just drones, though. Shoot away. Of course, doing so will make clear your duplicity.

Words like ‘duplicity’ coming from the masters of the art of deception.

Sanctuary aborgates your rights of sovereignty. Why? Because you've long since failed the responsibilities of sovereignty.

An ousted foreign government has safe haven on your lands from which to make war on your neighbor. Your own tribal citizens like Bahadur and Nazir do the same.

We believe it is you who is nurturing the sanctuaries in Afghanistan and providing TTP intelligence and giving them operational training. We heard your claims of Osama being in Pakistan and finally this is what you had to say - “US lost track of Osama years ago: Gates. Monday, 07 Dec, 2009”
The fact of the matter is that you don’t have any credible intelligence about any of these terrorists and just let your frustration out by blaming Pakistan for your failures. There is nothing the U.S forces can do that the Pakistani forces cannot do within its borders.

You won't control them.

We will use PREDATOR.

Pray we don't choose ARCLIGHT instead.

The men you harbor KILL our men. That's unacceptable and we'll do what's necessary to protect ourselves.

And what makes you think we will not do what’s necessary to protect ourselves. Pakistan is the last place you would want to enter my friend I will pray that you don’t make this fatal mistake, there will be no withdrawals as you will not be given the leverage to decide that.

 

[Hussein]

The taliban are a pashtu movement that was formed in 1994 in Oruzgan province and moved on to Kandahar.

The taliban movement remains a near-exclusively pashtu militancy.

Those are the bald facts. Use them as you will but try to learn them first.

you have much to learn about .

What About the Taliban's Stingers? - NYTimes.com

In the 1980s, the Reagan administration delivered several hundred Stingers to Afghan resistance groups, including the Taliban.

you can even find informations on wiki

anyway for your information
many pashtuns went to Pakistan as refugees . Mullah Omar for exemple and many of them were students of Darul Uloom Haqqania. this was in 80s when it was beginnning formation of this group.

then came later help of ISI.

and the first activities are from 94 but not the creation of taliban

 

[pakdefender]

they can say no to these drone attacks, but can they actually stop the americans from these strikes?

yes we can , we've shot down US drones in the past when the Aemricans jumped out of their pants and tried to put US soldiers on ground , we even fired on their helis afterwards.

Following images show wreckage of the shot down drone.

On board starter Unit for the Predator retrieved from the wreckage.

When this incident happened , you indians were saying 'ab maja ay ga' ( note the 'j' , Pakistanis will know what I mean ) hoping that the US will attack Pakistan and do to it what india only dreams of ( i.e destroy Pakistan )

One advice would be to dont take too much 'maja'. In Pak we have a saying that mazay laitay laitay khoti truck kai neechay aa gai , so india should not end up like the khoti that came under the truck as a result of taking too much 'maja'

 

[apophenia]

The current crops of Taliban are one component of a religious establishment that has always lived in the shadow. Around the early 90’s they took the role of military-political governing from the elite and the warmongers Mujahedeen. They came out when mujahedeen were deepening ethnic divisions. Taliban are not an upstart movement as the majority perceives it to be. Both religious schools and Taliban existed long before invasion of Soviets. Mullah Shor Bazar, a Talib, a famous fighter against the British during the Third Anglo-Afghan war that was around 1919, or Mirwais Khan Hotaki, and Mullah Mushki Alam, were both Talib who fought against the British occupation of Afghanistan.


We (US and Pak), armed Mujahedeen to wage a holy war and then once cold war evaporated US disappeared and Pakistan was left with million refugees and battle hardened junkies.When Talibs stood against the oppression with majority support and helped Pakistan rescue a consignment routed to Central Asia, naturally we backed them up, a good will gesture; but I do agree that that relationship brings Pakistan into confrontation with the logic of the western world. Honestly speaking it is fruitless because US/Nato weren’t in Afghanistan, and from what I have read most people don’t know the history of the land called Afghanistan or the origin of Taliban.

US frustration stems from reality that Pakistan is and will be the major player in Afghanistan’s stability and that they have to eventually embrace the Talibs to achieve the greater goal which is not the sovereignty of Afghanistan.

Pak’s frustration is that US is adamant to bring Afghanistan back to "golden age" of the pre-Communist era which it cannot. Their frustration does not just end with the US but also with Taliban, who didn’t understand why it matters to the west as to what they were doing on their own soil.

Instead of pasting each other we all need to move forward and achieve our individual goals while giving Afghanistan its due peace and chance for prosperity.

 

[S-2]

Very interesting comments.

"The current crops of Taliban are one component of a religious establishment that has always lived in the shadow."

It's important to separate the talib movement as a vehicle of Islamic theological scholarship from the militancy movement born in 1994 of the same name.

At this point it's fair to say, I believe, that very few "students" are engaged among the rank-and-file of the taliban.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

yes we can , we've shot down US drones in the past when the Aemricans jumped out of their pants and tried to put US soldiers on ground , we even fired on their helis afterwards.

Following images show wreckage of the shot down drone.

On board starter Unit for the Predator retrieved from the wreckage.

your post was funny.....i enjoyed it

bhai, never seen these pictures before. Are they really from that incident?





"maja"

 

[AstanoshKhan]

what has the U.S. accomplished in Afghanistan since 2001?

I'm serious. Answer the question seriously, I'm ignorant on this subject and want to learn.

Sir, if I may have the previledge?

One major achievement is, they have secured and boosted the opium business.

Americana is becoming another Soviet.
An excerpt from the article.

President Obama has made it clear that this is a war America cannot afford to lose and, like the Soviets before them, it may yet prove to be a war they cannot afford (literally) to win. A quagmire indeed.

 

[S-2]

"One major achievement is, they have secured and boosted the opium business."

Why would you suggest that unless you were ignorant of the opium business in Afghanistan?

Have you ever read this?

You should read it if you haven't. If you have read UNODC's 2009 Afghanistan Opium Survey, then you remember the chart on page one that indicates that the taliban government set a then-world record for opium cultivation back in 1999.

Under their control and by their direction. It was a critical resource to a cash-starved and generally unrecognized government and had been since they'd seized power in 1996.

The taliban still view opium in the same manner. It's just as critical now.

Read further if you haven't. If you have, then you'd remember the next chart on page two that indicates opium cultivation by province. Nevermind that the overall numbers have fallen two years in a row. Please, instead, focus on where opium is and has been a central problem.

It is Helmand, Farah, Kandahar, Oruzgan, and Nimroz...

...the heartland of the taliban.

No armed group in Afghanistan are bigger drug or warlords than the taliban.

That's all they are. Pashtu at that.

 

[Naradmuni]

what has the U.S. accomplished in Afghanistan since 2001?

I'm serious. Answer the question seriously, I'm ignorant on this subject and want to learn.

listing few of the accomplishments...

1)There has been no single terrorist attack on American soil after 2001.

2) Al-qaeda now exists only on paper and maybe in minds of some triabl fanatics only.

3) The level of violence in Jammu Kashmir has decreased. Thanks to US presence in the region.

4) Afghanistan has moved in the right path of democracy, normalisation.

5) Afghan women now have the right to live life in dignity.

6) And most importantly, After 5 years of prohibitaion, Afghan men can finally shave their beards now.

 

[r0ck]

Hey vsdoc, 'maja' aya joke parh kar. But enough with the cheap jokes.

Now getting back to the topic where the 'all-knowing' members have constructively elaborated about the presence/no presence of sanctuaries, effectiveness/de-effectiveness of drones, caring/not-caring about innocent lives and the regular macho attitude accompanied with such.

You see what 'I think' is, yes we provide protection for our assets. Note 'assets', not the ones CIA is protecting inside Pakistan, but ones which 'could-be' key players in the region for Pakistan, once the ISAF leaves. So what's wrong with that? We have our interests to protect, just like the CIA has its.

Then comes the argument that because of your protection, someone is suffering. I agree, but someone is also suffering because of your decisions. It's a vicious circle, I know. But, that's just the way things are right now.

Then why did things come to this? You see it all started by a dumb inside job, carried out to start a hoax 'War-on-Terror'. Which by now, is a catastrophic failure. What's happening now is a similar scenario as in a video game level in which the objective is to do the most 'face-saving' and 'blaming' than the other side.

Another thing is the history of the context. You see Pakistan was left high and dry after the Soviet war. It was all alone to design a safe neighbor for it's interests. And alot of work had to be done to achieve that. Which the world now, so conveniently, degrades Pakistan for. Pakistan did what it had to, to safeguard it's interests. But history is history, what happened then is a by-gone era now. What Pakistan must do now, is plan for the future.

This 'War-on-Terror' is already lost. 8 years and not even Kabul is fully secure. Don't know why Obama is sending more 30,000 troops for, but either way this'll not change anything. So what'll happen when the US/NATO forces leave. Well Pakistan will be left with a 'very angry' Afghanistan and with a 'so-called' elected government whose reach ends within it's office. So if US is not looking to negotiate with the 'actual' players of the region, and rightly so because Afghanistan is not their neighbor, then who will. Hence Pakistan, whether someone likes it or not, has to make ends meet with the reality of the situation. Pakistan has to ensure that it's western borders don't spring up any threats, because it already has enough of that on its east. Pakistan has to make commendable efforts, if it is to secure a safe western border, with certain powerful figures. Note certain, not every single one of them in order to assure peace once the 'most powerful military force in the history of man' leaves.

Then the argument comes that Pakistan is receiving the money from US for this war. Yes we are, and we're still give our interests priority over others. That's not fair, I know. And the best thing is you, me or anybody else here can't do jack about it.

So let's get realistic here, and find a solution around it. Now we're talking. You see without upholding Pakistan's interests, nothing, as if there was anything, can be garnered from Afghanistan. The solution lies with the amalgamating of ideas from both sides and rendering the situation from a realistic point of view. Without 'talking' to the Taliban there is no end to this. They are the 'cow gazers' who are the most influential group in the region. Note the I'm referring to the Afghan Taliban, not the TTP which are presumably an Indian sponsored and wrongly cited branch of Taliban. The sooner everyone realizes this the better. The Taliban can't be defeated in their home, similar to the Pakistan Army on theirs. It's been 8 years now and who knows how many more, before everyone starts to realize this.
The only 'way-out' now left, atleast for Pakistan, is to make efforts to ensure that Afghanistan's real leadership is mediated in a way which guarantees against any hostility coming in from Afghanistan, once the leadership comes back into power eventually.

Finally, your most welcome to disagree with me, these are just my views. Just like most of us here, I'm not an analyst or a 'false-proof' source on this forum.

 

[illuminatus]

"Even if we were to include so-called footsoldiers, how much would it amount to?"

The footsoldiers are considerable-

Porous Pakistani Border Could Hinder U.S.-NYT May 4, 2009

"'The drones are very effective,'

he said, acknowledging that they had thinned the top leadership of Al Qaeda and the Taliban in the area. He said 29 of his friends had been killed in the strikes."

Then I failed to notice Baitullah Mehsud among your listed dead.

Then I read this-

You're just avoiding the real question which is that the drone attacks are not nearly enough effective as advertised by your friends in the US army. The immeasurable collateral damage that US technology has precipitated thus far easily exceeds the advertised effectiveness. Had your own family been a victim of these horrendous drone attacks you would be venting your rhetoric in a very different manner.

"Besides, my argument is based on one innocent life is too many."

Too bad you don't use the same rationales to evaluate the impact of sanctuary on the lives of innocent afghans or the collateral effects your army's operations have from time to time inside FATAville.

Again, this is coming from an American that used the Afghan land as a base to fight against the former USSR in order to avoid bloodshed at home. It's an American custom to spill innocent blood in foreign land. Please, don't try to conceal your crimes. Besides, don't you lecture me on innocent Afghan's losing their lives in the illegitimate war that your country initiated. I actually have family living across the border that daily become a victim of your illegitimate war. Whether the PA is conducting an operation inside their own territory is none of your business. You've no right to criticize whatever the PA does in its own borders. At least, I can claim that our army doesn't invade other countries and rape or kill the locals for fun.

"You know very well that by financing and arming the Mujahideen you also had the utmost responsibility to initiate a reconciliatory process between the different factions as well as rebuild the war torn country in the aftermath."

Really? Funny that you haven't bothered to include any other nation which participated in supporting the mujahideen. Not KSA. Not the PRC. Not Great Britain nor France.

Doubt it would have been possible to initiate such a reconciliation given Pakistan's already clear and contravening interests in assuring the only outcome acceptable would be with Pakistani proxies on top. The ISI were already sleeping with Hekmatyar.

Finally, I highly doubt that the Soviet Union would vacate Afghanistan should they have believed that we'd backfill behind them. I can't imagine it.

Thanks.

The US being the brainchild of the Cold War bears the main responsibility for the current mess. Needless to mention puppet states which participated as pawns. However, if it pleases your ego, I admit that KSA, UAE and other states are also complicit.

It's very easy for you to be judgemental and point fingers at others. Fact remains that the US sponsored and trained the Mujahideen to defeat the former USSR. Pakistan also had a stake in defeating the USSR since they were threatening to occupy Pakistan after Afghanistan. The US gladly misused this opportunity to their advantage. Today, the US is facing the same menace that they once let loose on the Soviet Republic. That's sweet irony at its best.

Whatever you believe or doubt is irrelevant. Let's face the reality. Fact is that today you need Pakistani support in order to achieve your vile interests in Afghanistan. I can assure you that this support isn't going to be offered on a silver platter. That's all you need to know.

 

[forcetrip]

S-2 will change his tone once that High horse blows its legs with the landmine called "War Debt". Till then we can all listen to his sporadic nonsense about how an american life is worth more than any other lives in the world being an aggressor in most cases.