Pakistan not to accept extention in US. strikes

[Aslan]

It was earlier brought to my knowledge the type of CRAP that this man is saying about Pakistan. He also used name-calling/ad-hominem attacks against certain Pakistani members.


let him appease the indians.....he can dress up as "cow" and do dance for them maybe

Sir ji forget about that clown us kay sath do hath ho chukay hain and jab asliat samnay ayee to dobara jawab hi nahi diya.
I wanted to ask you are you currently serving in the military or were.

 

[S-2]

"Though, the question still remains why it isn't your choice to assist in fencing the border since it will be in everyone's interest to keep those miscreants from regrouping on the Pakistani side of the border as you always purportedly claim? I don't understand the negligence and reluctance."

Fencing either side of the border is not our decision. It is decision for Afghans and Pakistanis to take together or take separately. Nothing prevents Pakistan, for instance, from running a fence just inside your border.

You are welcome to do as you wish. That is not negligent and, indeed, is respecting the authority of those invested with the power to decide. That's not America.

As to reluctance, our opposition stems from the ethnic homogeneity of the border area and its traditional pathways to both countries. Nobody will be so disrupted by such as ethnic pashtu of the region. If mines are introduced, the consequences to daily life could be shattering.

Finally, fences and mine fields must be observed to be effective. Doing so for the length of the Afghan-Pakistani border will likely prove an unbearable burden for either or both countries.

Better to find reconciliation and open borders than what you propose, IMV but, again, it's not America's decision.

"The rest have been civilians."

No. It didn't suggest that at all. It only relayed how many were A.Q. leaders. You've not at all accounted for the numerous second-level associates and affiliated taliban that have been killed in these attacks.

"Had the US not left Afghanistan as an open field for the Mujahideen and instead rebuilt the country we wouldn't be facing this situation today."

I strongly doubt the Soviets would have left Afghanistan at all if they were certain that we'd be immediately back-filling their vacancy along their southern tier of socialist states.

Had we managed to persuade the Soviets to depart and stayed ourselves, however, I can only imagine the hue and cry from the muslim camp about our neo-imperialist ambitions for a region in which we'd never held a historical interest.

We'd been damned by Islam anyway.

Further, unlike America, Pakistan was beautifully positioned to legitimately help your immediate neighbor, Afghanistan. What assistance, though, did you render to raise forth the Afghan people from their misery besides supporting first Hekmatyar and then the taliban?

For shame.

Thanks.

 

[Aslan]

We'd been damned by Islam anyway.

It is the Muslims that you had been damned by so chose and use your words wisely.

Further, unlike America, Pakistan was beautifully positioned to legitimately help your immediate neighbor, Afghanistan. What assistance, though, did you render to raise forth the Afghan people from their misery besides supporting first Hekmatyar and then the taliban?

And while making the above statement you had completely forgotten the fact that we had taken almost all the refuges from Afghanistan and I don't remember the russians and the indians blowing bombs in the USA but they were definitely causing all the problem in Pakistan right before the withdrawal. But why should you care right it was not your behind on the line like it is today.

For shame.

And rightly so for shame but well you guys don't feel any so its ok.

Thanks.

Cheap and free words there for all to use and missuses and the art perfected by the neocons.

 

[Hussein]

regional loyalties vs. national loyalty.....ethnic over-tones. It really is a deeply divided country; we saw this prior to soviet invasion as well as subsequently -during civil war.

I do hope situation improves, though I am not too optimistic; unless things radically change - which they aren't.

in the same time S-2 seems very ignorant about our neighbour.

about what you said... i have many friends from pashtun tribes in iran
i visited a very good friend in afghanistan ... his father was fighting for "national alliance" (called north alliance from the ennemies to insult them) indeed United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan
So his father died when he was fighting against talibans . when i visited them they all were so much loving Massoud.
I could see from many of them in Iran that they have very different opinions of talibans, that they were not united tribes and many didn't share the same ideas of Afghanistan nation, education , social life.

i have an uncle working in a north for construction. he appreciates very much people there but as he explained to us , now most afghans didn't appreciate the bad behavs and the stupidity of some soldiers but as well all these stupid acts they are never judged for when by mistake they kill tens of innocent people. as well they seem to have very unrespectful and low knowledge of Islam.

i can read it in S-2 behavior on this forum acting like :
"i am american i can do whatever i want . there is no frontier and no rule applying for us. " . he just built himself his ignorance of all history of humanity and the importance of diplomacy.

i have family in california . i have nothing against americans . it is even opposite. they have nice ideas of democracy and they care about what is happeing in the world. but they are some really ignorant and dangerous people.
these ones are as bad as ttp members or al qaida. dangerous for peace and for respect.

sorry for my opinion but this guy is walking on my nerves with all his bullshit ideas.

 

[apophenia]

@ S-2

my bad but i am awaiting your point of view. if my query seems like rhetorical question excuse my limited knowledge.

@ Abu Zolfiqar
thank you but not interested in prevalent theories as I mentioned earlier. more importantly needed his take on the subject matter.

 

[pakdefender]

"US is interested in extending it to Quetta area where they think some phantom Quetta Shura exists, which in reality isn't there"

Can you explain this report, please?

Quetta Shura No Longer Poses A Threat: Ahmad Mukhtar DAWN Dec.11, 2009

The phantom Quetta Shura never existed but now it's been destroyed.

Uh huh. Whatever.

Thanks.

Ahmed Mukhatar is not much of a 'Defence Minister' , they guy has given foolish statements in the past also.

After the Angoor Adda incedent where the Americans foolishly landed troops in Pakistani territory , killed 15 villagers ( mostly women and chidlren ) and shelled the villages near the border this is what this imbicel said:

However, Defense Minister Ahmad Mukhtar said homes near the border had been shelled by NATO aircraft and made no mention of ground forces. "No one carries out shelling without any reason after coming from far away," Mukhtar told reporters in Lahore.

Errrr .. 'No one carries out shelling after coming from far away' ?!?!?

What kind of a 'Defence Minsiter' is this ? He's an imbicel and he has put his foot in his mouth in the past also , this statement about the 'Quetta Shura' is no different.

There is some political sh!t brewing in Pakistan and this guy is just making a nusance for himself knowing full well that this sort of a statement will get the attention of the 'king makers' in Pakistan.

 

[S-2]

Perhaps you missed this-

"Why is afghan society too complex to summarize ?"

I don't believe I said afghan society couldn't be summarized, just simply that it's not possible in such a superficial manner. As such, I don't hold to the comments nor could I imagine myself writing them.

I hope that helps.

Thanks.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I wanted to ask you are you currently serving in the military or were.

discharged in 2006

As to reluctance, our opposition stems from the ethnic homogeneity of the border area and its traditional pathways to both countries. Nobody will be so disrupted by such as ethnic pashtu of the region. If mines are introduced, the consequences to daily life could be shattering.

I remember seeing an Afghan refugee kid in Parachinar who was injured by a mine.

It has devastating effects. I used to support the idea of mining the border, not sure how I feel about it now.

A security barrier in certain parts of the border would be in order. I believe PM Gilani met with Janet Napolitano (US Dept. Homeland Security) in this regard. Not sure if anything would materialize.

Finally, fences and mine fields must be observed to be effective. Doing so for the length of the Afghan-Pakistani border will likely prove an unbearable burden for either or both countries.

it's a rugged and porous region; very difficult to guard at all times

Better to find reconciliation and open borders than what you propose, IMV but, again, it's not America's decision.

Afghans living in Pakistan must abide by the Laws of Pakistan. They need permission and valid documents to come here. And there needs to be proper over-sight on their activities.

Our borders already were open, when 5 million of their refugees flocked into Pakistan. The Jordanians and Syrians have their fair share of Iraqi/Palestinian refugees. The number of Afghans in Pakistan far exceeds this number.


and yes i agree with you -- it is NOT america's decision

Had we managed to persuade the Soviets to depart and stayed ourselves, however, I can only imagine the hue and cry from the muslim camp about our neo-imperialist ambitions for a region in which we'd never held a historical interest.

We'd been damned by Islam anyway.

Remember, radical right-wing Christians were talking about a "Christian cause" to liberate oppressed Afghan (Muslims) by any means possible.

Or did you forget already?

Further, unlike America, Pakistan was beautifully positioned to legitimately help your immediate neighbor, Afghanistan. What assistance, though, did you render to raise forth the Afghan people from their misery besides supporting first Hekmatyar and then the taliban?

what other option did we have at the time? Who else would bring order and help fight poppy cultivation?

You act as if America had nothing to do with Hekmatyar. Your hands are also involved here.




Thanks once again, for demonstrating dim-wittedness and total lack of perspective on even major issues like this

 

[Aslan]

discharged in 2006

All I want to say is thank you sir.

 

[illuminatus]

"Though, the question still remains why it isn't your choice to assist in fencing the border since it will be in everyone's interest to keep those miscreants from regrouping on the Pakistani side of the border as you always purportedly claim? I don't understand the negligence and reluctance."

Fencing either side of the border is not our decision. It is decision for Afghans and Pakistanis to take together or take separately. Nothing prevents Pakistan, for instance, from running a fence just inside your border.

You are welcome to do as you wish. That is not negligent and, indeed, is respecting the authority of those invested with the power to decide. That's not America.

As to reluctance, our opposition stems from the ethnic homogeneity of the border area and its traditional pathways to both countries. Nobody will be so disrupted by such as ethnic pashtu of the region. If mines are introduced, the consequences to daily life could be shattering.

Finally, fences and mine fields must be observed to be effective. Doing so for the length of the Afghan-Pakistani border will likely prove an unbearable burden for either or both countries.

Better to find reconciliation and open borders than what you propose, IMV but, again, it's not America's decision.

Very well, you're entitled to your opinion. I, for one, am a staunch supporter of this idea. I believe that a so-called digital fence can be very helpful in minimizing the inflow of insurgents into Pakistan. Thus, indirectly also addressing US concerns of so-called safe havens on the Pakistani side of the border. Any help by the US in this regard would be most welcome since you also have experience in building a fence with neighbouring Mexico. The building and financing of the fence will be a challenge for Pakistan.

"The rest have been civilians."

No. It didn't suggest that at all. It only relayed how many were A.Q. leaders. You've not at all accounted for the numerous second-level associates and affiliated taliban that have been killed in these attacks.

Even if we were to include so-called footsoldiers, how much would it amount to? Besides, my argument is based on one innocent life is too many. I think that it's morally obscene to argue about the number of casualties correlating to success in the WoT.

"Had the US not left Afghanistan as an open field for the Mujahideen and instead rebuilt the country we wouldn't be facing this situation today."

I strongly doubt the Soviets would have left Afghanistan at all if they were certain that we'd be immediately back-filling their vacancy along their southern tier of socialist states.

Had we managed to persuade the Soviets to depart and stayed ourselves, however, I can only imagine the hue and cry from the muslim camp about our neo-imperialist ambitions for a region in which we'd never held a historical interest.

We'd been damned by Islam anyway.

Further, unlike America, Pakistan was beautifully positioned to legitimately help your immediate neighbor, Afghanistan. What assistance, though, did you render to raise forth the Afghan people from their misery besides supporting first Hekmatyar and then the taliban?

For shame.

Thanks.

So, basically Afghanistan and Pakistan in the process were just scapegoats in order to hand defeat to USSR? You know very well that by financing and arming the Mujahideen you also had the utmost responsibility to initiate a reconciliatory process between the different factions as well as rebuild the war torn country in the aftermath. We after all did the dirty work. It's a fact that US abandonment has cost Afghanistan, Pakistan and your own country very dearly. Your excuses about Islam etc. are totally inexcusable and irrelevant in that regard. Also, you have a distorted view about Islam. No where does Islam damn anyone. Perhaps that's your distorted misconception.

Surely, Pakistan had after the Cold War on many occasions reached out to the US for rebuilding war torn Afghanistan. These pleas were deliberately ignored for obvious reasons.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

no need to thank me.

Thank those who are active now, and doing best job possible to protect nation.


The ill-wishers of this country will remain rabid and spit their venom. But united we stand. We've already proved that we can stand up to enemies MUCH larger than us and defend every inch of our lands.


but we also must maintain vigil, and even change ourselves and some of our thinking. Demand strong leaders, and work hard!

 

[S-2]

"Even if we were to include so-called footsoldiers, how much would it amount to?"

The footsoldiers are considerable-

Porous Pakistani Border Could Hinder U.S.-NYT May 4, 2009

"'The drones are very effective,'

he said, acknowledging that they had thinned the top leadership of Al Qaeda and the Taliban in the area. He said 29 of his friends had been killed in the strikes."

Then I failed to notice Baitullah Mehsud among your listed dead.

Then I read this-

"Besides, my argument is based on one innocent life is too many."

Too bad you don't use the same rationales to evaluate the impact of sanctuary on the lives of innocent afghans or the collateral effects your army's operations have from time to time inside FATAville.

"You know very well that by financing and arming the Mujahideen you also had the utmost responsibility to initiate a reconciliatory process between the different factions as well as rebuild the war torn country in the aftermath."

Really? Funny that you haven't bothered to include any other nation which participated in supporting the mujahideen. Not KSA. Not the PRC. Not Great Britain nor France.

Doubt it would have been possible to initiate such a reconciliation given Pakistan's already clear and contravening interests in assuring the only outcome acceptable would be with Pakistani proxies on top. The ISI were already sleeping with Hekmatyar.

Finally, I highly doubt that the Soviet Union would vacate Afghanistan should they have believed that we'd backfill behind them. I can't imagine it.

Thanks.

 

[SekrutYakhni]

"Though, the question still remains why it isn't your choice to assist in fencing the border since it will be in everyone's interest to keep those miscreants from regrouping on the Pakistani side of the border as you always purportedly claim? I don't understand the negligence and reluctance."

Fencing either side of the border is not our decision. It is decision for Afghans and Pakistanis to take together or take separately. Nothing prevents Pakistan, for instance, from running a fence just inside your border.

You are welcome to do as you wish. That is not negligent and, indeed, is respecting the authority of those invested with the power to decide. That's not America.

As to reluctance, our opposition stems from the ethnic homogeneity of the border area and its traditional pathways to both countries. Nobody will be so disrupted by such as ethnic pashtu of the region. If mines are introduced, the consequences to daily life could be shattering.

Finally, fences and mine fields must be observed to be effective. Doing so for the length of the Afghan-Pakistani border will likely prove an unbearable burden for either or both countries.

Better to find reconciliation and open borders than what you propose, IMV but, again, it's not America's decision.

"The rest have been civilians."

No. It didn't suggest that at all. It only relayed how many were A.Q. leaders. You've not at all accounted for the numerous second-level associates and affiliated taliban that have been killed in these attacks.

"Had the US not left Afghanistan as an open field for the Mujahideen and instead rebuilt the country we wouldn't be facing this situation today."

I strongly doubt the Soviets would have left Afghanistan at all if they were certain that we'd be immediately back-filling their vacancy along their southern tier of socialist states.

Had we managed to persuade the Soviets to depart and stayed ourselves, however, I can only imagine the hue and cry from the muslim camp about our neo-imperialist ambitions for a region in which we'd never held a historical interest.

We'd been damned by Islam anyway.

Further, unlike America, Pakistan was beautifully positioned to legitimately help your immediate neighbor, Afghanistan. What assistance, though, did you render to raise forth the Afghan people from their misery besides supporting first Hekmatyar and then the taliban?

For shame.

Thanks.

What assistance, though, did you render to raise forth the Afghan people from their misery besides supporting first Hekmatyar and then the taliban?

For shame

What about you?
You are shameless to help us making people "talibans"... MANY American sources suggest that Afghani people (talibs) who fought with Soviets were armed, financed, prepared by Americans...which side you take...we created those people or you...

We had enough guts to support one regime...
What about you?
You left us all alone and imposed sanctions on us...

If we are so shameless than what kind of shame you showed us in Afg during Soviets...
You gave them weapons....never game them education...


You only have a good vocabulary from which people get confuse...
That’s all…

 

[S-2]

"MANY American sources suggest that Afghani people (talibs) who fought with Soviets..."

This is wrong then. The afghan people who fought against the Soviets were the Mujahideen. Those mujahideen comprised far more than simply pashtu.

They included uzbek, tajik, hazara, and turkomen with whom we aren't at war today.

The taliban are a political phenomena that didn't arise from Oruzgan province until 1994 and didn't seize Afghan power until 1996. Never did America have a thing to do with the origins of the taliban nor their path to power.

"...were armed, financed, prepared by Americans..."

and many, many other countries whom are constantly forgotten by Pakistanis in their inaccurate rush to align us with OBL and the taliban.

More than anything, though, American assistance kept Pakistan from being openly attacked by the Soviet Union.

Thanks.

 

[Hussein]

S-2 says based on old article " The drones are very effective,"

Not only there was given the ratio of civil death so your effectiveness i don't know where you get it from new data?

BBC NEWS | Americas | US warned on deadly drone attacks

The US has been warned that its use of drones to target suspected terrorists in Afghanistan and Pakistan may violate international law.

S-2 said :"Funny that you haven't bothered to include any other nation which participated in supporting the mujahideen. Not KSA. Not the PRC. Not Great Britain nor France."
France? got any source?