Pakistan not to accept extention in US. strikes

[S-2]

"Like i said, you are trying to police lands that are totally foreign to you."

There is an Afghan government that is there trying to do the same. The U.N., America, and forty other nations think that your thoughts are a bunch of self-serving pap meant to maintain a choke-hold on afghan political discourse.

"You dont know the culture or history of this region."

Actually, I'm stunned by how little Pakistanis here understand about Afghanistan and the thoughts most Afghans have. This naturally stems from the notion that pashtu perspectives are AFGHAN perspectives and speaks to the disregard Pakistanis have for the Uzbeks, Tajiks, Turkomen, and Hazara of Afghanistan.

"Americans think they can apply some kind of "Iraq formula" to Afghanistan (for whatever that is worth)."

I hope you've actually read McChrystal's redacted assessment and aren't simply repeating trite media-driven labeling? If so, you'd know far better that the operating parameters of Afghanistan are clearly understood by the ISAF leadership and there's no mistaking Afghanstan's differences to Iraq.

Foolish and simplistic for a military man. You should know better.

"Taleban werent your enemy until you invaded the already destroyed country."

The taliban were NEVER recognized by the United States. That should tell you enough. Only KSA, UAE and yourselves-all with something to gain at the afghans expense. We were hardly friends and 9/11 was the culmination of a series of deadly attacks by Al Qaeda under the protection of the taliban gov't.

This is pure theatre by you right here-

"All you had to do was use diplomatic pressure on them, and isolate them from the AQ-allied extremists existing in the area."

Pull your head out of the sand. We weren't going to NEGOTIATE. We were going to make war. We don't believe that the taliban represent ANYTHING redeemable. Nothing.

"You obviously had no problems inviting these same people to Houston to discuss pipeline projects."

Speak to UNOCAL about that. Didn't get very far. Don't see how we recognized their government but I do see that you did and sponsored those blood-curdling loons.

"You need our cooperation."

I'm still waiting for some that doesn't come with a bill of lading.

"You want our cooperation? You will take things on our terms, and based on our conditions."

Actually, no. I wish for you to cut our supply lines and shoot down a PREDATOR or two. Our relationship is a sham and nothing will improve for anybody until we get this out in the open, fight the war that's evidently got to happen and settle matters in a way that will allow for progress to move forward in Afghanistan or forever be denied.

That's what I think needs to happen because I think Pakistan really does hold proxy forces against the day ISAF leaves, and we do intend to leave. Pakistan does so because it can't compete economically nor diplomatically with India in Afghanistan. So it does by promoting insurgency through surrogates.

You have no ability to garner favor in Afghanistan beyond the pashtu because Pakistan has intentionally alienated itself from the hazara, tajik, uzbek, and turkomen of that nation. As such, you can't be viewed as a good-faith broker.

"We are the ones suffering economically and in numbers of lives lost -- thanks partly to your short sightedness and betrayal."

Actually, its the Afghans that have been the long-suffering and manipulated here. That's thanks to your short-sightedness and betrayal. How dare you foist the taliban upon them and then try to do so again.

We've data that shows that, if afghans had a choice, the taliban pull about 7-8% of the country's freely-expressed favor. Less than 10%. The Afghan people HATE these men.

"...by the way, not all anti-American elements in FATA are taleban or pro-taleban. Some are just sympathetic to the very same "Afghan brothers" who were being bombarded by soviet gunships...READ HISTORY! "

Your simplistic allusions lack factual accuracy. There's no comparison between the slaughter that the Afghan-Soviet war brought forth, particularly from the Soviet Union, and now. None and I welcome any data that you wish to provide that contradicts and puts this on the same plain.

You ignore that, unlike the Afghan-Soviet war, forty nations and the U.N. are arrayed against allowing your "afghan brothers", as you put it, gaining their chokehold on the social fabric of Afghanistan again.

Big difference. You've no moral authority this time. The taliban aren't the mujahideen nor do they represent the multi-ethnic composition of the mujahideen.

Most of the world thinks stabilizing Afghanistan under the U.N. mandate is a good endeavor and worthy of support. Only muslim nations are notably absent from helping the afghans.

Go figure.

Your sense of history seems skewed, especially if I'm supposed to rely upon phrases like "shortsightedness and betrayal" for their scholarship.

I won't do so. Meanwhile, I'll keep my own counsel on your knowledge as a regional historian.

 

[illuminatus]

^^ Like as if these blame games will get you anywhere. Enough said.

 

[Ahmad]

they can say no to these drone attacks, but can they actually stop the americans from these strikes?

 

[TaimiKhan]

Talebans were never accepted by the US ?? Well then i don't understand why were the US so much into talks with Taleban representatives who were let into the US to negotiate for deal for oil & gas pipelines, even state department officials met them and paid for their expenses. and they did not visited once, but multiple times.

So when it comes to oil and gas, the USofA will do anything even ...................................................... I hope the readers can judge themselves what USofA can do for oil & gas. Pathetic two faced hypocrites with no moral & ethical values when it comes to their own agenda.

Context of 'December 4, 1997: Taliban Representatives Visit Unocal in Texas'

Read above to know what US govt and its corporate do when it comes to their own objectives, they even let them visit Mount Rushmore. Wow. And people on this forum say we did not accepted them. How can anyone not accept a govt and then let its representatives come to US, meet them in state deptt building and take them on a ride and pay for their expenses too.

 

[S-2]

"...they can say no to these drone attacks, but can they actually stop the americans from these strikes?"

Sure but it'll be an open break in our relations and all bets are off from that point. Pakistan might as well cut our supply lines at the same time and reconcile itself to having made America its enemy.

We'll always reserve the right to defend ourselves from our attackers and recognize no sanctuary where it comes to hiding our enemies. We've been as careful as any nation can be WRT PREDATOR and actually have no need to justify our actions.

That's a matter for Pakistan to do with its sanctuaries.

 

[S-2]

"Read above to know what US govt and its corporate do when it comes to their own objectives..."

Not much of a commitment to those objectives, Taimikhan. What did the taliban end up possessing which indicated success or reward? Mt. Rushmore?

What do you think drove the taliban to radically eradicate opium in the space of eight months as they did in early 2001? They were tired of being on the outside looking into the rest of mankind.

They had three nations as friends. You were, by far, their greatest benefactor.

Still are too. Sanctuary is invaluable to their insurgency. Without it, they wouldn't have stood a chance.

 

[Ahmad]

"...they can say no to these drone attacks, but can they actually stop the americans from these strikes?"

Sure but it'll be an open break in our relations and all bets are off from that point. Pakistan might as well cut our supply lines at the same time and reconcile itself to having made America its enemy.

We'll always reserve the right to defend ourselves from our attackers and recognize no sanctuary where it comes to hiding our enemies. We've been as careful as any nation can be WRT PREDATOR and actually have no need to justify our actions.

That's a matter for Pakistan to do with its sanctuaries.

i doubt if they will do anything or be able to do. the huge handout americans giviing to GOP is a big bonus for them. and militarily i am not sure if pakistan is able to target these drones in their airspace?

 

[TaimiKhan]

i doubt if they will do anything or be able to do. the huge handout americans giviing to GOP is a big bonus for them. and militarily i am not sure if pakistan is able to target these drones in their airspace?

PA & PAF is very much capable enough to target those drones, we even shot down an Indian Israeli drone with an A2A missile.
PA and PAF practices its shooting skills on much smaller targets with perfection, so hitting these huge drones is not a problem.

And for your information, US is not giving any bonus to us, they made us get into their shitty war, so rest hopefully you are capable enough to understand.

All it is needed a will. Which we badly lack.

 

[Aslan]

i doubt if they will do anything or be able to do. the huge handout americans giviing to GOP is a big bonus for them. and militarily i am not sure if pakistan is able to target these drones in their airspace?

Why does all of your (or any one else that is not a Pakistani) debates end up at the though that we somehow are reliant on the handouts by the US. We very well have a functioning economy that thank to the garbage theory of war on terror is being hammered to the ground and if any sane and sincere man was sitting in Islamabad he would have realized which obviously you guys don't that we actually have lost more all in terms of money, economy and men then what was given so in essence we are doing a reverse charity.
And remember we are weak but not handicapped, and sea is only calm till it stays with in its shores but when it moves forward it not only becomes a storm it also drowns every thing in its path.

 

[Ahmad]

PA & PAF is very much capable enough to target those drones, we even shot down an Indian Israeli drone with an A2A missile.
PA and PAF practices its shooting skills on much smaller targets with perfection, so hitting these huge drones is not a problem.

thanks for the information.

 

[TaimiKhan]

"Read above to know what US govt and its corporate do when it comes to their own objectives..."

Not much of a commitment to those objectives, Taimikhan. What did the taliban end up possessing which indicated success or reward? Mt. Rushmore?

What do you think drove the taliban to radically eradicate opium in the space of eight months as they did in early 2001? They were tired of being on the outside looking into the rest of mankind.

They had three nations as friends. You were, by far, their greatest benefactor.

Still are too. Sanctuary is invaluable to their insurgency. Without it, they wouldn't have stood a chance.

That's the best you can come up with ???

Would be better you ask your US forces and NATO forces to destroy the sanctuaries on their side of the border first and then come to us requesting to do the same, instead of emptying their posts, bases for fear of Taliban attacks and taking casualties.

You guys do the same by providing sanctuaries, we will reciprocate too.

And ask your forces not to launch operations with fancy names with much fanfare and in the end achieving nothing.

What was the last one, yeah Operation Cobra Anger or something like that, where has it reached, how much Taleban killed, how many bases & posts US forces captured of the Taleban and recaptured their own lost ones, how much ammo captured, how many Taleban captured ??

Show your resolve first and then come to us, ours atleast doing and showing results while yours full of crap and losses.

 

[S-2]

"...the huge handout americans giviing to GOP is a big bonus for them. and militarily i am not sure if pakistan is able to target these drones in their airspace?"

Think the Russians used a fighter to shoot a Georgian UAV down. It can be done.

It would mean a huge change. Not as huge as if they cut supply lines but there'd be a reaction from Washington, especially if it was a PAF shootdown and not an insurgent SAM/AAA.

 

[Ahmad]

"...the huge handout americans giviing to GOP is a big bonus for them. and militarily i am not sure if pakistan is able to target these drones in their airspace?"

Think the Russians used a fighter to shoot a Georgian UAV down. It can be done.

It would mean a huge change. Not as huge as if they cut supply lines but there'd be a reaction from Washington, especially if it was a PAF shootdown and not an insurgent SAM/AAA.

According to Musharaf, one of G.W.Bush's officials had warned Pakistan be with us or with the Terrorists, if they sided with the terrorits, the official said to bomb pakistan to stone age, otherwise pakistan would never have abondanded their asset in afghanistan(the taliban). it is a war and cooperation not according to their wish, but compulsary. even if they try to stop the supply line, i am sure there is more routes through central asia.

 

[S-2]

"...ours atleast doing and showing results while yours full of crap and losses."

Too much jingoism for my tastes. No hint that your forces have a thing to learn from their experience nor that anything came as a surprise or disappointment.

That's typical of somebody who hasn't served in the military.

 

[illuminatus]

@Unity This is coming from someone that would blame Pakistan if an earthquake occurred in Afghanistan. My advise, don't be disloyal to the same hand that fed you during war and misery.