Pakistan needs strategic depth

[krash]

Ofcourse we do have 'em. Why do you think we developed Prahaar missile in such a short time?

Because every source counts Prahaar as a battlefield support tactical system and states no where its compatibility with miniature nukes and because there remains no confirmation of India building low yield tactical nukes. Many different countries have tactical missile systems, very few have tactical nukes.

Same is the case with pakistan. India has even gone to the extent of changing it's nuclear doctrine for this purpose.



Read it carefully. You may invite a nuclear strike just if you threaten us with nukes. Next, not only on India, but even if our forces are attacked with nukes(and it dosent differentiate between tactical/strategic), the perpetrator will invite massive and unacceptable retaliation.

Good luke nuking the Indians.

You should've read my post more carefully. What you pointed at is exactly the point of Pakistani tactical nukes.

India comes up with Cold Start to fight a limited war, gaining major territory quickly before the international pressure kicks in and stops the hostilities before the nuclear threshold is reached. Allowing India then to use the captured territory as chips on the eventual negotiation table. Indian IBGs capture territory quickly >> The rest of the world steps in before Pakistan needs to use nukes >> India has an upper hand at the table >> India wins. Why was it envisaged? Because Pakistan's stance threatened total war and in result MAD in the case of an Indian assault, hence deterring any Indian cross-border misadventure. India attacks >> If Pakistan is losing >> nukes used >> MAD >> so India doesn't attack. Cold Start's basic premise, main objective and core is to allow Indian aggression without letting the nuclear threshold being breached. Enter Pakistan's tactical nukes and, as you said, now the possibility of the nuclear threshold not being breached is out the window rendering India's plans for a non-nuclear-risk assault, i.e. Cold Start, impotent. Indian IBGs cross the border >> Pakistan uses tactical nukes >> India uses strategic nukes >> Pakistan uses strategic nukes >> MAD >> so India doesn't attack. Unless India decides not to respond to the tactical nukes in which case the IBGs are dust and the Indian assault fails. Brilliant, no? At least on paper.

Pakistani tactical nukes' primary purpose isn't killing Indian IBGs but bringing the nuclear threshold so low that the IBGs never cross the border in the first place by defeating their purpose altogether. What you need to understand here is that Pakistan's stance is defensive while India's stance is offensive >> Pakistan does not want an open conflict, India wants an open conflict without the risk of nukes.

 

[TOPGUN]

Pakistanis are simply scared.

They threaten India with nuclear weapons ever since India invaded and annexed east Pakistan.

This left a shock on Pakistan they have never recovered and live in fear of India rise

So I see you are back to your hateful pathetic actions, either you or on some good stuff or in need of serious medical attention. Pakistan is in no way scared of anyone specially india trust me when I tell you this. Nukes are our way saying to you think twice before attacking on all out war given the fact india being a country which is 3 times the size and in everything including the armed forces yet your armed forces still shit their paints each and every day knowing what's lies across the border so what can one do in a position to safe guard its self like Pakistan we do what we have to keep evil at bay simple as that.
"Now stop the trolling and keep your hateful pathetic thoughts to your self or your will be gone in a real SHOCK "

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Once upon a time, Gen. Aslam Beg coined the term of "Strategic Depth", since then its become yet another abusive term, whenever rival countries discuss Pak-Afghan issue (just like Eating grass to become Nuclear phrase).

Whatever i have read and understand about Strategic depth of Pakistan, i share with you guys over here.

1. Pakistan has a very long border with Afghanistan. Afghanistan was the only country which opposes Pakistan induction at UN. Afghanistan has never accepted Durand Line also. Before Soviet invasion, Communists in Afghanistan remained a problem for
Pakistan. 3 Baloch insurgencies amply operated from Afghan soil with full support from them. To make matters complex Pakistan has a very large ethnic Pushtoon population (its similar as Indian Tamils & Srilankan Tamils, a strategic challenge for India).
Cutting the talk short, Pakistan Strategic interest is a Government in Afghanistan which is friendly to her. If not friendly, atleast a neutral one. Last thing Pakistan want is another front in its west.

2. Within Pakistan, the strategic depth can be understood by looking at the map of Pakistan. Pakistan is divided in the middle by River indus. Somehow, major population centers, economic centers and infrastructure is located at East of Indus. This means that if Indians can penetrate from any front upto 100kms, they can cut road and rail linking South Pakistan to North. Similarly only port i.e. Karachi is also situated on East of Indus river. Imagine Sindh cut from Punjab and Karachi under Naval blockade. Sindhi nationalists supported by RAW and you have another East Pakistan like situation in making.

Pakistan can restore (and has done some projects) Strategic depth by developing Balochistan and areas West of river Indus. Gwadar port, Karachi-Lahore motorway. Railway line linking Gwadar to China, more bridges over River Indus. Developing new industrial states in Balochistan, establishing new cities there. This will not only increase Pakistan military power by factor of 10, but also bring an economic revolution. Failing to implement these projects, Pakistan survival is at stake. Lahore, Karachi, Faisalabad cant provide employment to every Pakistani nor Pakistani economy can remain dependent on these few centers.

 

[Storm Force]

People will hate me for saying this but it's not about hate it's about facing up to your dilemmas.

Pak military have discussed what happens if in s conventionsl war India superior military and massive industrial advantage takes it's toll on Pakistani cities and military infrastructure within short range of the loc and borders.

Pakistan have discussed a retreat plan into your hinterland much like the Russia s actions when they retreated into Russia from germany advancing army's in work war two .This plan has included withdrawing into afghanistan as well.

I'm not saying this will happen but it has been discussed by your military planners.

Of coursec in such a scenario you could just resort to tactical nuke strikes as the *** alternative.

Ps i did not say this will happen just that you guys have discussed this abd strategic depth encompassess this theory

 

[krash]

Yes that might be right,but it is out of question from the military view that the Iranians have done the best of their situation under the sanctions. Their bases and coastal defence I am not talking about their Naval air and sea arm, are a dangerous threat for any Fleet which trys to attack Iran from sea. With their current tactic, development and mass production of Anti-ship missiles and the combination of long and short SAM arsenal they can hold their declared enemy at the Bay.

The Tactic which the Iranian coastal defence use is very simple:

- firing Anti-Ship missiles in salves

- using older and new typse of missiles, makes it more difficult and complex for the enemy to expect the technical threat and choose the meassures




View attachment 149614

I am not fan of Irans politics neither I am interest in politics, I am just a military reader and writer,who want see Pakistan in peace through military and economic strengthened by a peaceful foreign politic of Pakistan.

You stand correct, however my point remains that; Appreciate Iran's efforts? Of course. Aspire to what Iran has? Not quite, we've done better.

 

[Inception-06]

Once upon a time, Gen. Aslam Beg coined the term of "Strategic Depth", since then its become yet another abusive term, whenever rival countries discuss Pak-Afghan issue (just like Eating grass to become Nuclear phrase).

Whatever i have read and understand about Strategic depth of Pakistan, i share with you guys over here.

1. Pakistan has a very long border with Afghanistan. Afghanistan was the only country which opposes Pakistan induction at UN. Afghanistan has never accepted Durand Line also. Before Soviet invasion, Communists in Afghanistan remained a problem for
Pakistan. 3 Baloch insurgencies amply operated from Afghan soil with full support from them. To make matters complex Pakistan has a very large ethnic Pushtoon population (its similar as Indian Tamils & Srilankan Tamils, a strategic challenge for India).
Cutting the talk short, Pakistan Strategic interest is a Government in Afghanistan which is friendly to her. If not friendly, atleast a neutral one. Last thing Pakistan want is another front in its west.

2. Within Pakistan, the strategic depth can be understood by looking at the map of Pakistan. Pakistan is divided in the middle by River indus. Somehow, major population centers, economic centers and infrastructure is located at East of Indus. This means that if Indians can penetrate from any front upto 100kms, they can cut road and rail linking South Pakistan to North. Similarly only port i.e. Karachi is also situated on East of Indus river. Imagine Sindh cut from Punjab and Karachi under Naval blockade. Sindhi nationalists supported by RAW and you have another East Pakistan like situation in making.

Pakistan can restore (and has done some projects) Strategic depth by developing Balochistan and areas West of river Indus. Gwadar port, Karachi-Lahore motorway. Railway line linking Gwadar to China, more bridges over River Indus. Developing new industrial states in Balochistan, establishing new cities there. This will not only increase Pakistan military power by factor of 10, but also bring an economic revolution. Failing to implement these projects, Pakistan survival is at stake. Lahore, Karachi, Faisalabad cant provide employment to every Pakistani nor Pakistani economy can remain dependent on these few centers.

Very good writing, I did enjoy it, especially your focus on the strategic "depth" through building a huge economic zone in Beluchistan and build up a variety of infrastructure all over Pakistan. I had the same Idea since years Pakistan must try to shift all and any future strategic bases and economic projects to Beluchistan, Punjab should only ramain and be saved for the agrar production like Hitler did said " Ukraine ist die Kornkammer- granary", the agrar Land which even now is very rare must be saved for the future generations to feed the 200 Million Pakistanis, but for that we need reforms and absolut control of every inch in Pakistan. Also Pakistan must try to build state owned fishing fleet to feed the folk in Sindh.....

 

[StormShadow]

Because every source counts Prahaar as a battlefield support tactical system and states no where its compatibility with miniature nukes and because there remains no confirmation of India building low yield tactical nukes. Many different countries have tactical missile systems, very few have tactical nukes.

Prahaar can have a nuclear warhead means India did miniaturize it's nukes.

You should've read my post more carefully. What you pointed at is exactly the point of Pakistani tactical nukes.

India comes up with Cold Start to fight a limited war, gaining major territory quickly before the international pressure kicks in and stops the hostilities before the nuclear threshold is reached. Allowing India then to use the captured territory as chips on the eventual negotiation table. Indian IBGs capture territory quickly >> The rest of the world steps in before Pakistan needs to use nukes >> India has an upper hand at the table >> India wins. Why was it envisaged? Because Pakistan stance threatens total war and in result MAD in the case of an Indian assault, hence deterring any Indian cross-border misadventure. India attacks >> If Pakistan is losing >> nukes used >> MAD >> so India doesn't attack. Cold Start's basic premise, main objective and core is to allow Indian aggression without letting the nuclear threshold being breached. Enter Pakistan's tactical nukes and, as you said, now the possibility of the nuclear threshold not being breached is out the window rendering India's plans for a non-nuclear-risk assault, i.e. Cold Start, impotent. Indian IBGs cross the border >> Pakistan uses tactical nukes >> India uses strategic nukes >> Pakistan uses strategic nukes >> MAD >> so India doesn't attack. Unless India decides not to respond to the tactical nukes in which case the IBGs are dust and the Indian assault fails. Brilliant, no? At least on paper.

The whole assumption is based on a belief that India will be reluctant to use it's nukes. You have gone to the extent of nuking Indian IBGs and still assume India wont retaliate. How convinently you claim Indian IBGs cross the border >> Pakistan uses tactical nukes >> India uses strategic nukes >> Pakistan uses strategic nukes >> MAD >> so India doesn't attack.
While India has been very vocal that once pakistan uses nukes, the threshold is already gone and pakistan will have to face massive and unacceptable Indian retaliation.

India will retaliate massively, if Pakistan uses nukes: Shyam Saran - thenews.com.pk

Your whole strategy is as i said based on the assumption that India will buckle under pressure and backoff from using nukes. While the reality is the India was the first one who has gone to the extend of deploying nukes on the border during 2001 stand off..i.., just two years after you tested your nukes. So, if you think India backs off even after our forces are nuked, then you need to take your head out of the sand.

India refused to budge under US pressure to hold any talks with Pakistan after the 2001 attack on its Parliament by terrorists from across the border, says former top American diplomat Condoleezza Rice.

India had deployed nuclear-capable missiles on its western border and refused to budge under US pressure to hold any talks with Pakistan after the 2001 attack on its Parliament by terrorists from across the border, says former top American diplomat Condoleezza Rice.

'After 2001 Parliament attack, India deployed nuclear missiles on border' | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

 

[krash]

Prahaar can have a nuclear warhead means India did miniaturize it's nukes.

Because you claim that it can?

The whole assumption is based on a belief that India will be reluctant to use it's nukes. You have gone to the extent of nuking Indian IBGs and still assume India wont retaliate. How convinently you claim Indian IBGs cross the border >> Pakistan uses tactical nukes >> India uses strategic nukes >> Pakistan uses strategic nukes >> MAD >> so India doesn't attack.
While India has been very vocal that once pakistan uses nukes, the threshold is already gone and pakistan will have to face massive and unacceptable Indian retaliation.

India will retaliate massively, if Pakistan uses nukes: Shyam Saran - thenews.com.pk

Your whole strategy is as i said based on the assumption that India will buckle under pressure and backoff from using nukes. While the reality is the India was the first one who has gone to the extend of deploying nukes on the border during 2001 stand off..i.., just two years after you tested your nukes. So, if you think India backs off even after our forces are nuked, then you need to take your head out of the sand.


'After 2001 Parliament attack, India deployed nuclear missiles on border' | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

You are a thick one....Pakistan's whole strategy is based on the fact that India will use its nukes in response but is not willing to allow a nuclear war and hence if there is no chance of avoiding a nuclear war then it will not attack. Cold Start itself says that. Kindly read my post a few dozen times before replying.

What does bloody "India uses strategic nukes" mean if not retaliation and the use of, you guessed it, nukes!?

 

[StormShadow]

Because you claim that it can?



You are a thick one....Pakistan's whole strategy is based on the fact that India will use its nukes in response but is not willing to allow a nuclear war and hence if there is no chance of avoiding a nuclear war then it will not attack. Cold Start itself says that. Kindly read my post a few dozen times before replying.

What does bloody "India uses strategic nukes" mean if not retaliation and the use of, you guessed it, nukes!?

oh boy...what are you? a 5 year old kid? What did I say in my first post? Even a threat of nuclear attack is enough for Indian response. Retaliation dosent necessarily mean nuke after getting nuked. That is the whole point of me posting a part of our nuclear doctrine in one of my previous posts.

 

[xyxmt]

What Pakistan needs is to control the dept it already has, give people job, education and health in the already given depth then we can consider spreading the pie a bit wider and bit longer

 

[krash]

oh boy...what are you? a 5 year old kid? What did I say in my first post? Even a threat of nuclear attack is enough for Indian response. Retaliation dosent necessarily mean nuke after getting nuked. That is the whole point of me posting a part of our nuclear doctrine in one of my previous posts.

Only a moron would use nukes after just being threatened to be nuked, let alone the fact that Pakistan has threatened nukes a million times if India went for all out war. My dear God....I'm out.

 

[Last Samuri]

Seems to me the Indians & americans are building an afghan army to be trained and funded by Indians and americans of over 300,000 men that is is pro india

 

[Last Samuri]

This is what they call encircling

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Very good writing, I did enjoy it, especially your focus on the strategic "depth" through building a huge economic zone in Beluchistan and build up a variety of infrastructure all over Pakistan. I had the same Idea since years Pakistan must try to shift all and any future strategic bases and economic projects to Beluchistan, Punjab should only ramain and be saved for the agrar production like Hitler did said " Ukraine ist die Kornkammer- granary", the agrar Land which even now is very rare must be saved for the future generations to feed the 200 Million Pakistanis, but for that we need reforms and absolut control of every inch in Pakistan. Also Pakistan must try to build state owned fishing fleet to feed the folk in Sindh.....

Thanks Bro..

Actually Pakistan needs to relocate its population. Balochistan is 46% of Pakistan total land mass, while its population is lesser then or equal to Lahore. I just give one example, Travelling to the South from Lahore toward Kasur over Ferozpur Road. After just 55kms from Lahore city center, you enter India (Gandda Singh Border). Just 10 years ago, this whole area between Lahore-Kasur was plain Agriculture land and small villages. Now every where new housing schemes have come up. People are increasingly migrating from smaller cities to large cities like Karachi, Lahore. This has created huge social issues. Crime rate have gone up.

Population centers have even reached our last line of defence in Lahore sector, the BRB Canal, God knows where our planners are sitting?

 

[fatman17]

Aslam Beg was one of the worst thinkers.

Please do not quote him or quote essays that quote him.

Pakistani must realize that our beautiful country has enough of resources and "depth" to become a world power.

What we really need is depth in our intellect and not in land.

i think the writer's focus was on this. he has already dissed Gen. aslam beg as an 'idiot'.

Also, the concept goes beyond the mil-ops categories. During a talk once I formulated it in political-diplomatic terms: strategic depth being the ability of a state to reduce threats by a combination of strategies which includes improving relations with neighbours to try and bring the possibility of an armed conflict to zero and thereby creating space for economic development and projection.



Source: Pakistan needs strategic depth