Pakistan Navy’s 2300 Tons OPVs launched by Damen

[arslank03]

This acquisition has never made much sense. What capability does this platform add to the PN that it doesn't already have? And just 2 units? Why acquire an OPV, and then go to the lengths of customising it with AShM and VLS? makes no sense. Whiff of back handers here.

once again, the "opv" classification means nothing. There are OPV's capable of BMD and ones that have greater displacement than any PN ship.

Just two units- for now.

There is no difficulty in customization, Damen builds platforms like this, they are all going to be ffbnw to some extent, its clear the pn is looking to use these ships in a little more high-intensity role, infact, if you think back in time, the PN contracted damen and swiftships to each provide 2 ships, damen being the opv1900, then swiftships being the 75m corvette. In this case, the swift contract was canceled, likely because damen offered a better product, at a better cost without all of the strings. The design the PN selected was designed by damen from the ground up to accommodate VLS, if the pn didnt select to equip them, the space would have just been empty. Its clear the PN is looking to equip more and more ships with VLS and SSM's, not sure what whiffs you're getting here.

 

[Corax]

once again, the "opv" classification means nothing. There are OPV's capable of BMD and ones that have greater displacement than any PN ship.

Just two units- for now.

There is no difficulty in customization, Damen builds platforms like this, they are all going to be ffbnw to some extent, its clear the pn is looking to use these ships in a little more high-intensity role, infact, if you think back in time, the PN contracted damen and swiftships to each provide 2 ships, damen being the opv1900, then swiftships being the 75m corvette. In this case, the swift contract was canceled, likely because damen offered a better product, at a better cost without all of the strings. The design the PN selected was designed by damen from the ground up to accommodate VLS, if the pn didnt select to equip them, the space would have just been empty. Its clear the PN is looking to equip more and more ships with VLS and SSM's, not sure what whiffs you're getting here.

But that's exactly my point, e.g. another south Asian navy, can't remember which, might be Thailand, they operate a derivative of the F-22P as an OPV, so if the OPV classification doesn't mean anything, why acquire yet another platform that essentially can be fulfilled by adding more units of the existing platforms or those on order? What capability does this platform bring that is missing in other potential platforms in the pipeline?

 

[arslank03]

But that's exactly my point, e.g. another south Asian navy, can't remember which, might be Thailand, they operate a derivative of the F-22P as an OPV, so if the OPV classification doesn't mean anything, why acquire yet another platform that essentially can be fulfilled by adding more units of the existing platforms or those on order? What capability does this platform bring that is missing in other potential platforms in the pipeline?

Because the hulls are as cheap as chips. The cost is in the sensor fit. There is no hull as cheap as the damen ones in the PN. What platform in existence can do the same thing? What pipeline platform can do the same thing? The closest is the Yarmook, which Yarmook batch 2 is based off of anyways...

 

[Tank131]

But that's exactly my point, e.g. another south Asian navy, can't remember which, might be Thailand, they operate a derivative of the F-22P as an OPV, so if the OPV classification doesn't mean anything, why acquire yet another platform that essentially can be fulfilled by adding more units of the existing platforms or those on order? What capability does this platform bring that is missing in other potential platforms in the pipeline?

The rationale behind this deal was good, the initial execution of it (OPV 2300/Yarmook) was dumb as all hell. From a financial standpoint, the HULLS cost only $50M from what I understand. That is the reason behind the deal. You get a frigate sized vessel for cheap then can arm it with indigenous systems including Harbah, and imported systems lije CAMM-ER and GENESIS Advent CMS. The Baburs likely cost $175M-$200M per ship when all is said and done. You get similar weapons performance from Yarmook batch 2 for probably $100M all in per ship.


The rationale was that by buying just the hull as they did with Yarmooks or the swift ship 75m corvettes, they would get large displacement vessels which were entirely customizable, for very cheap. The swift ship design looks very good but i believe the tender would have been riddled with political land mines given the fact its a US company. As a result, the Damen offer was selected. The initial vessels as we can all agree, are poorly laid out, but i suspect this is more due to PN than Damen. The 2600T vessel is a much better design with an integrated VLS. This makes for a much better defensive frigate than the 2300t ships whose only self protection is a Phalanx that only protects the rear 180 degrees.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

The Baburs likely cost $175M-$200M per ship when all is said and done.

Do you mean 175M - 200M for weapons / sensors only OR the full ship cost all included?

The 4 baburs were at 1.5B USD deal. So apparently overall per ship cost is much higher than 200M.

You get similar weapons performance from Yarmook batch 2 for probably $100M all in per ship.

Yep Weapon performance maybe at similar level for Ashm, & SAMs However, Baburs one of the core specialties is its anti-submarine role. Note, The ADA class were specialists in anti-sub role. I think that Yarmook batch 2 with weapons, sensors, combat mangt systems will be much higher than 100M per ship. Only hull cost may be 70-75M. Cost of weapons suite, EW is going to be quite high.

 

[Tank131]

The 4 baburs were at 1.5B USD deal. So apparently overall per ship cost is much higher than 200M.

Remember, that deal also included rights to the project including blueprints, modification rights and future rights to sell those modified designs. So the $1.5Bln isnt all tied up into those 4 ships.

 

[CivilianSupremacy]

Remember, that deal also included rights to the project including blueprints, modification rights and future rights to sell those modified designs. So the $1.5Bln isnt all tied up into those 4 ships.

True, I agree. However still I think 4 baburs would have costed more than a billion dollars anyways for just the ships without the rights etc. It seems a good deal because of technology transfer & rights that will lead to JCF. But I don't understand why Pakistan included rights to sell (if its true). PN also had purchased rights to sell for agosta90b. I can't imagine a customer outside PN which will buy from Pakistan instead the original manufacturers. First step should be able to fulfill our own requirements. But nevertheless overall good deals both the baburs & Yarmooks2 in their own ways.

 

[arslank03]

True, I agree. However still I think 4 baburs would have costed more than a billion dollars anyways for just the ships without the rights etc. It seems a good deal because of technology transfer & rights that will lead to JCF. But I don't understand why Pakistan included rights to sell (if its true). PN also had purchased rights to sell for agosta90b. I can't imagine a customer outside PN which will buy from Pakistan instead the original manufacturers. First step should be able to fulfill our own requirements. But nevertheless overall good deals both the baburs & Yarmooks2 in their own ways.

Pakistan is the owner of the design, by nature of the deal it will allow us to sell. Also because JCF is different to Istif ffg so diff req for diff navy

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

True, I agree. However still I think 4 baburs would have costed more than a billion dollars anyways for just the ships without the rights etc. It seems a good deal because of technology transfer & rights that will lead to JCF. But I don't understand why Pakistan included rights to sell (if its true). PN also had purchased rights to sell for agosta90b. I can't imagine a customer outside PN which will buy from Pakistan instead the original manufacturers. First step should be able to fulfill our own requirements. But nevertheless overall good deals both the baburs & Yarmooks2 in their own ways.

Design ownership also helps in many ways. There's the right to re-export the design, of course, but the PN can also decide which input vendors it wants to work with. So, instead of putting up with an OEM-selected partner (e.g., for steel, engines, electronics, etc), the PN can pick its preferred partner for each via open bidding. This helps them control costs. In addition, controlling the design also helps the PN build the long-term support channel for each ship and set exactly what upgrades, structural refits, etc, it wants. One of the drawbacks of the Agosta 90B program was that Naval Group still owned some support work, especially for upgrades (forcing the PN to break off with STM's help and build its own mid-life plan).

With the PN owning the design, I'd be interested in seeing how fast Pakistani industries catch up. There should be an opportunity to locally supply all of the required steel and, with enough investment, composites for these and future ships. Otherwise, I think the PN will directly talk to Germany for their preferred MTU diesel engines, Turkey and the UK for certain sensors and electronics, and the US for other inputs. That said, I'd also keep an eye on South Korea now -- they might enter our naval supply channel through input contracts.

The next and final leg would be an original submarine. The PN has an optimal design configuration in mind, and it's plainly obvious to it now that it won't get such a design via standard OEM means. It'll need to own the design and directly work with input vendors (e.g., for engines, AIP, etc).

 

[Tank131]

Design ownership also helps in many ways. There's the right to re-export the design, of course, but the PN can also decide which input vendors it wants to work with. So, instead of putting up with an OEM-selected partner (e.g., for steel, engines, electronics, etc), the PN can pick its preferred partner for each via open bidding. This helps them control costs. In addition, controlling the design also helps the PN build the long-term support channel for each ship and set exactly what upgrades, structural refits, etc, it wants. One of the drawbacks of the Agosta 90B program was that Naval Group still owned some support work, especially for upgrades (forcing the PN to break off with STM's help and build its own mid-life plan).

With the PN owning the design, I'd be interested in seeing how fast Pakistani industries catch up. There should be an opportunity to locally supply all of the required steel and, with enough investment, composites for these and future ships. Otherwise, I think the PN will directly talk to Germany for their preferred MTU diesel engines, Turkey and the UK for certain sensors and electronics, and the US for other inputs. That said, I'd also keep an eye on South Korea now -- they might enter our naval supply channel through input contracts.

The next and final leg would be an original submarine. The PN has an optimal design configuration in mind, and it's plainly obvious to it now that it won't get such a design via standard OEM means. It'll need to own the design and directly work with input vendors (e.g., for engines, AIP, etc).

What is the capacity in Pakistan to produce military ship grade steel? Does Pakistan even have the capability to produce the steel or is it something that would need to be sourced?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What is the capacity in Pakistan to produce military ship grade steel? Does Pakistan even have the capability to produce the steel or is it something that would need to be sourced?

I think they can do it. In prior years, the incentive to invest in it wasn't there because the PN wasn't buying that many ships. However, when you have some 20 patrol boats, 6-8 frigates, and 4+ additional OPVs on the roadmap, there's a good reason to set up the capacity.

 

[Tank131]

I think they can do it. In prior years, the incentive to invest in it wasn't there because the PN wasn't buying that many ships. However, when you have some 20 patrol boats, 6-8 frigates, and 4+ additional OPVs on the roadmap, there's a good reason to set up the capacity.

Agree with the idea to set it up, but does this capability exist currently?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Agree with the idea to set it up, but does this capability exist currently?

I don't know if the capability to forge the exact steel exists right now, but from what I understand, our industry base can absorb the know-how. With the PN investing in so many ships, I think that know-how will be acquired and used.

 

[Muhammad Saftain Anjum]

Agree with the idea to set it up, but does this capability exist currently?

I asked this question to @iLION12345_1
He said yes we have this Capability.
He is a knowledgeable member and often has first hand info about especially Army Weapons

 

[iLION12345_1]

Agree with the idea to set it up, but does this capability exist currently?

As far as i know, The capability to work with and produce steel of this grade exists within Pakistan and its industry. But something being technically possible doesn’t mean it’s realistically possible, especially given the state of some of our largest steel plants.