Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[ARMalik]

Type 054A/P frigate of Pakistan Navy will use Chinese CM-501GA anti-ship missiles from Z-9EC helicopter

According to information published by the "TIMESNOWNEWS.COM" on December 29, 2021, the Type 054A/P frigate of the Pakistani will use a Chinese-made Z-9EC helicopter armed with CM-501GA anti-ship missiles.
According to open sources information, the Pakistan Navy ordered four Type 054A/P frigates to China. The first Type 054A/P for Pakistan was launched on 22 August 2020 while the second frigate was launched on 29 January 2021. In November 2021, Navy Recognition has reported that Pakistan Navy has commissioned the first Chinese-made Type 054A Guided Missile Frigate PNS Tughri.

The Harbin Z-9 is an attack helicopter produced by the Harbin Aircraft Industry Group. The Z-9EC is an anti-submarine warfare variant developed for the Pakistan Naval Air Arm. The helicopter is equipped with ASW torpedoes and a mix of sensors and radars to find, track and destroy enemy submarines.

The CM-501GA is an anti-ship missile manufactured in China by the company China Aerospace Science & Industry Corporation. The design of the missile is based on CM501G, a land attack missile first revealed during the 9th Zhuhai Airshow held in November 2012. The CM-501GA is a lighter version and only has a range of 40 km compared to the CM501G missile which has a firing range of 70 km.

The CM-501GA uses TV/infrared imaging combined with end-guided guidance and uses the inertial navigation system that may be assisted by the global satellite navigation system for cruise guidance. The CM-501GA missile is 2 meters long and has a diameter of 180 mm. It weighs 100 kilograms and uses a 20-kilogram high-explosive warhead with a range of 5-40 kilometers. The manufacturer claims that its hit accuracy can be controlled within 1 meter and the hit rate is 90%.

Not a reliable source - its indian news.

 

[Abid123]

Brothers the issue with the Type 52D is that it's $920 million ship. There is no way that funds for that would exist, and if they did there would be severe cutbacks elsewhere.
The Type 52D offer similar capabilities e.g. 64 VLS tubes for half that cost, and it is feasible to purchase two for under $1 billion, which is less than what was paid for the four Tyep 54A's but gives us exceptional capability.

Bro the 920 million USD is the export price right? The Chinese price for the Type 052D is 500 million USD I think.

 

[waz]

Bro the 920 million USD is the export price right? The Chinese price for the Type 052D is 500 million USD I think.

Yes that's right bro.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Bro the 920 million USD is the export price right? The Chinese price for the Type 052D is 500 million USD I think.

But we can get subsidised export cost like type54

 

[Pandora]

But we can get subsidised export cost like type54

We dont even know at which cost we bought type 54 so how do you know they are subsidised. People seems to have a very wrong view of Pak China defense relations. China treats us as a strategic ally so they have made everything available to us but that doesn't mean they will take a loss of profit in our behalf.

 

[Scorpiooo]

We dont even know at which cost we bought type 54 so how do you know they are subsidised. People seems to have a very wrong view of Pak China defense relations. China treats us as a strategic ally so they have made everything available to us but that doesn't mean they will take a loss of profit in our behalf.

True, but many news are around claiming we got them in very reasonable price

 

[mudas777]

We dont even know at which cost we bought type 54 so how do you know they are subsidised. People seems to have a very wrong view of Pak China defense relations. China treats us as a strategic ally so they have made everything available to us but that doesn't mean they will take a loss of profit in our behalf.

There is a quota created by the China for us by which over some fixed time period, over certain amount we get items on the prices which they supply to the PLA.
No one runs the industry on the loss its only possible in Pakistan obvious examples are PIA and PSM etc.

 

[Pandora]

True, but many news are around claiming we got them in very reasonable price

That price is standard price probably even higher due to some upgrades we got for example radars. It was a production ready model which is the reason we got a good price for it.

 

[tphuang]

I'm not sure why there needs to be an argument over whether or not the 054APs are subsidized. Would you have a non-subsidized ship that's more capable and cheaper or a subsidized ship that's less capable and more expensive? It's a really good thing that China's shipbuilding industry can build newer ships so quickly and cheaply while maintaining quality. Maybe naval ships from Western countries have slightly higher specs when it comes to reliability and such, but they just cost so much more to build. In terms of fire power, the 054As pack as much punch as any similar sized naval ships you would find in other country. Probably only South Korea has the ability to build naval ships as cost effective as China. That's the benefit of having a strong domestic shipbuilding industry. My guess is that PN probably paid close to $300 million for each with additional costs for the actual missiles.

Given Pakistan's status as China's most trusted ally, it should just enjoy the benefits of Chinese shipyards being able to produce things quickly and cheaply. No other country will be able to sell Pakistan something like 054A for this kind of price. Just take a look at India. I remember project 17A was conceived before 2010. Yet, it didn't start construction until 2017 and the first one still hasn't commissioned yet. And who knows how much it will cost. And then there is the entire saga of Talwar class ships. Back in early 2000s, Indian armchair QBs kept telling me how amazing this ship was and how China would have real trouble dealing with it. And then it became Shivalik class. All these ships ended up taking longer to produce and cost more money than originally planned. I would take 054A over both of them That's the problem of relying on a non competitive shipyard to build your naval ships.

It's probably going to take China 4 years to deliver PN all 4 054APs. Why are people here still complaining? What else could PN buy with its shoestring budget?

 

[syed_yusuf]

I'm not sure why there needs to be an argument over whether or not the 054APs are subsidized. Would you have a non-subsidized ship that's more capable and cheaper or a subsidized ship that's less capable and more expensive? It's a really good thing that China's shipbuilding industry can build newer ships so quickly and cheaply while maintaining quality. Maybe naval ships from Western countries have slightly higher specs when it comes to reliability and such, but they just cost so much more to build. In terms of fire power, the 054As pack as much punch as any similar sized naval ships you would find in other country. Probably only South Korea has the ability to build naval ships as cost effective as China. That's the benefit of having a strong domestic shipbuilding industry. My guess is that PN probably paid close to $300 million for each with additional costs for the actual missiles.

Given Pakistan's status as China's most trusted ally, it should just enjoy the benefits of Chinese shipyards being able to produce things quickly and cheaply. No other country will be able to sell Pakistan something like 054A for this kind of price. Just take a look at India. I remember project 17A was conceived before 2010. Yet, it didn't start construction until 2017 and the first one still hasn't commissioned yet. And who knows how much it will cost. And then there is the entire saga of Talwar class ships. Back in early 2000s, Indian armchair QBs kept telling me how amazing this ship was and how China would have real trouble dealing with it. And then it became Shivalik class. All these ships ended up taking longer to produce and cost more money than originally planned. I would take 054A over both of them That's the problem of relying on a non competitive shipyard to build your naval ships.

It's probably going to take China 4 years to deliver PN all 4 054APs. Why are people here still complaining? What else could PN buy with its shoestring budget?

Well said, I totally agree with you

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I'm not sure why there needs to be an argument over whether or not the 054APs are subsidized. Would you have a non-subsidized ship that's more capable and cheaper or a subsidized ship that's less capable and more expensive? It's a really good thing that China's shipbuilding industry can build newer ships so quickly and cheaply while maintaining quality. Maybe naval ships from Western countries have slightly higher specs when it comes to reliability and such, but they just cost so much more to build. In terms of fire power, the 054As pack as much punch as any similar sized naval ships you would find in other country. Probably only South Korea has the ability to build naval ships as cost effective as China. That's the benefit of having a strong domestic shipbuilding industry. My guess is that PN probably paid close to $300 million for each with additional costs for the actual missiles.

Given Pakistan's status as China's most trusted ally, it should just enjoy the benefits of Chinese shipyards being able to produce things quickly and cheaply. No other country will be able to sell Pakistan something like 054A for this kind of price. Just take a look at India. I remember project 17A was conceived before 2010. Yet, it didn't start construction until 2017 and the first one still hasn't commissioned yet. And who knows how much it will cost. And then there is the entire saga of Talwar class ships. Back in early 2000s, Indian armchair QBs kept telling me how amazing this ship was and how China would have real trouble dealing with it. And then it became Shivalik class. All these ships ended up taking longer to produce and cost more money than originally planned. I would take 054A over both of them That's the problem of relying on a non competitive shipyard to build your naval ships.

It's probably going to take China 4 years to deliver PN all 4 054APs. Why are people here still complaining? What else could PN buy with its shoestring budget?

I think China's economies-of-scale, efficiency and general shipbuilding prowess (especially at scale) made the Type 054A/P and S26 (Hangor) very competitive in terms of price, more so considering how fast the PN could acquire those ships.

 

[MastanKhan]

Bro the 920 million USD is the export price right? The Chinese price for the Type 052D is 500 million USD I think.

Hi,
And the price for pakistan---! If you knew it---you would fall out of your chairs.

 

[ARMalik]

Hi,
And the price for pakistan---! If you knew it---you would fall out of your chairs.

And that is why PN needs these 052D-s ASAP.

 

[tphuang]

Based on what people here have said, PN typically gets a much lower procurement budget than the air force and army. On the flip side, IN actually has a very large procurement budget. So when the higher up at PN are making decisions on what ships to order, they have to think about what's the minimum needed to deter IN and how to get there with budget they have. That's very they've spent a lot more on diesel submarines than surface combatants. It seems to me that area defence from 052D would give PN capabilities it simply doesn't need. If PN had more money, it should just procure more 054As (or 054Bs when that comes out). Keep in mind that China has already retired pretty much all the frigates before 054. At the current pace on shipbuilding, PLAN will be retiring the earliest 054A building in a few years and PN could get second hand ones for either free or very cheaply. Again, that's another way for PN to take advantage of the rapid PLAN buildup and the efficiency of Chinese shipyards.

Before you sneer at 054A's capabilities, keep in mind that it has the same number of VLS cells for medium range AAMs as the latest IN destroyers and frigates. It's VLS cells can also fire a whole lot more type of missiles than the IN VLS. 054AP also has the supersonic missiles. Based on what I think of Russian designed weapons, I see no reason why it wouldn't be better than Brahmos.

Which brings back to the question of why IN does not have better ships given its huge resources. I think the answer lies in relying on inefficient and weak shipyards in India and Russia to build its ship. They seem to have a desire to build ships at their own shipyards while also sourcing from a bunch of foreign vendors which they deem to be the best. The result of that is often building ships with significant delays and cost overruns, while having a false sense of superiority. Recently, I saw tweet by H I Sutton comparing 055 to other new leading naval ships around the world like Tico, ABIII, KDX3, Kongo and such. All of these are fantastic modern ships. And then we had a couple of Indian armchair QBs denigrate 055 while also asking why Indian ships are not getting compared. H I Sutton had to nicely tell them IN ships are not comparable. It was quite embarrassing. This seems to mirror their own military forum where they dismiss new Chinese warships as propaganda or mirage that are bad because they are all Chinese built rather than equipped with Russian or Western parts. If you watch the recent China/Russia naval exercises, RN accepts their current warships are not as powerful as PLAN ones. I'm sure they would love to have some Type 055s.

I wonder if this type of thinking pervades IN senior leadership, because it's quite bad for them. Being ignorant of your capabilities is not a good thing. Maybe that's why after 20 years, IN is still stuck building ships with 32 missiles VLS that can only fire medium to medium long AAMs that have chronic delays. They truly think these are amazing ships. Just think what IN could've bought if they had purchased something from the Japanese or Koreans or even Spanish. Yet, they are still buying Talwar class 20 years after they received the first one. 054AP is better than Talwar class in most areas. All of this allows PN to at least have sufficient deterrent to IN despite having a much lower budget.

 

[ARMalik]

Type-054A is superior to INs Brahmaputra Class Frigates, Talwar Class 1 & 2, and Shivalik. These Indian ships have weak AD systems. In other words Type-054 is greatly helping PN change the qualitative balance with IN. A large fleet of 054s , 12 Submarines, along with PN fighter jets will give PN a decisive edge.