Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[Armchair]

They shouldn't double both. The PN bought the design rights to the Jinnah-class, so the appropriate outcome is for it to slot in additional Jinnah-class ships. In my opinion, they could look adding another 4 ships right away, and then another 4 ships on top of that to replace the F-22Ps by 2040.

The only downside is that KSEW is pretty inefficient compared to Chinese yards meaning costs will be higher, induction will be slow.

While China may be offering some very attractive financial options and produce the frigates like biscuits in a factory.

 

[PAR 5]

Here what I know and is very much confirmed:

1: Plans for LRMPA are there (currently two vastly different candidates are competing). Finalizing soon.
2: New UAVs and UCAVs with excellent endurance alongside abilities which are currently absent in South Asia.
3: A batch of 4 Frigates. If J-class is I-class then we are getting 4 Milgum and 4 J-Class. If J-Class is same as Milgum then PN will acquire Chinese options.
3: New helicopters. Neither from China nor from Russia, and definitely not from USA.
4: New Midget subs. How many, I don't know.
5: New fast attack crafts (news revealed few days ago).
6: New Missile Boats. (probably 6).
7: Series of new Missile Systems. Including new ones as well as new versions of existing arsenal.
8: New Destroyers, Type 52 DL on offer but so far Navy haven't finalized yet.

Some of the above deals have been inked, some are still in negotiation and planning phase. So its not necessary that every thing will materialize.
I have heard this rumor of J-15/J-16. But I don't want to count my chickens before hatching of eggs. PLAN-PN has formulated a comprehensive plan for securing IOR in coming decades from Indian centric and other state and non-state borne threats. And its better to let time and conditions decide the extent to materialization of these programs.

Allow me to respond.

1. LRMPA model already finalized/ selected. The specs of PN Tender were that of the Embraer Lineage 1000 only.
2. New UCAV already selected
3. Helicopters selection pending
4. Midget/ SWAT Subs progress is classified
5. FAC under construction at KSEW still
6. New Gun Boat to be built at KSEW (one prototype only)
7. I do not have latest information on the missiles induction
8. Type 054D are under construction in China. Process slowed due to COVID19

 

[Tipu7]

8. Type 054D are under construction in China. Process slowed due to COVID19

Whose Type 52D are under construction? Pakistan Navy? When this whole thing happened in first place?

 

[Tank131]

Any chance of Type 54 A order getting doubled. Because I have a good hunch that both Type 54 A and MILGEM/Jinah class order will get doubled. I mean eventually it would be 8 each.

I agree with @Bilal Khan (Quwa) that the 054A should NOT be reordered. While it is a good ship, my thinking is that if more frigates are to be ordered they will be modified Jinnah class frigates (hopefully with a quad packed medium ranged missile such as G-40 or CAMM-ER). I DO expect them to order 4 more of these. Hopefully instead of 054A they will place an order of two 052D OR four 054B AKA 057 which will likely be a 4500-5000t heavy frigate/light destroyer with 48 VLS cells and 8 AShM. Instead of outright replacing the F-22P they may consider upgrading them if possible. Which may be cheaper than getting brand new ships.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

8: New Destroyers, Type 52 DL on offer but so far Navy haven't finalized yet.

Come on Navy plz Finalize it atleast 4

 

[Tipu7]

I agree with @Bilal Khan (Quwa) that the 054A should NOT be reordered. While it is a good ship, my thinking is that if more frigates are to be ordered they will be modified Jinnah class frigates (hopefully with a quad packed medium ranged missile such as G-40 or CAMM-ER). I DO expect them to order 4 more of these. Hopefully instead of 054A they will place an order of two 052D OR four 054B AKA 057 which will likely be a 4500-5000t heavy frigate/light destroyer with 48 VLS cells and 8 AShM. Instead of outright replacing the F-22P they may consider upgrading them if possible. Which may be cheaper than getting brand new ships.

What if it turns out that current Milgum under construction and J-class are different things? And J-class is further modification of I-class? And instead of 3,3, basis, we are working on 4,4 options for Milgum and J-class respectively?

I am purely speculating, but my gut feeling suggest that the calculated arrow shot by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) in darkness, has hit the right spot... Because the (I) Navy has repeatedly updated its plans (ii) construction schadule of Milgum class suggests that all four vessels are of similar type. After Milgum-P, which are tailored to meet Pakistan demands, will come J-class which is Pakistan's own evolution on I-class.

 

[Areesh]

Come on Navy plz Finalize it atleast 4

No

 

[Tank131]

What if it turns out that current Milgum under construction and J-class are different things? And J-class is further modification of I-class? And instead of 3,3, basis, we are working on 4,4 options for Milgum and J-class respectively?

I am purely speculating, but my gut feeling suggest that the calculated arrow shot by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) in darkness, has hit the right spot... Because the (I) Navy has repeatedly updated its plans (ii) construction schadule of Milgum class suggests that all four vessels are of similar type. After Milgum-P, which are tailored to meet Pakistan demands, will come J-class which is Pakistan's own evolution on I-class.

My understanding is that first 3 are ADA plus 16cell vls and Gokdeniz instead of RAM, whereas the 4th will be a more indigenous design based on ADA. Who knows, maybe it could be an istanbul class itself, but my assumption is there will be 4-5 of whatever that design is plus the original 3 for a total of 8 MILGEM based frigates.

Whatever happens the reality is Pakistan didnt pay for full modification rights, sales rights etc in order to turn around and BUY ships from other countries with similar or only marginally better capabilities. If PN is going to buy amother foreign ship it will be larger and far more potent than MILGEM (even more than I-class) because they could build them in house (albeit not with chinese speed yet but still in house). It would need to be a destroyer alomg the lines of 052D or at least a heavy frigate the likes of 054B/057. A ship that moves the capability needle.

 

[Zarvan]

Allow me to respond.

1. LRMPA model already finalized/ selected. The specs of PN Tender were that of the Embraer Lineage 1000 only.
2. New UCAV already selected
3. Helicopters selection pending
4. Midget/ SWAT Subs progress is classified
5. FAC under construction at KSEW still
6. New Gun Boat to be built at KSEW (one prototype only)
7. I do not have latest information on the missiles induction
8. Type 054D are under construction in China. Process slowed due to COVID19

Are those Type 54 D or Type 52 D ??? And if they are Tupe 52 D are they for Pakistan

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

What if it turns out that current Milgum under construction and J-class are different things? And J-class is further modification of I-class? And instead of 3,3, basis, we are working on 4,4 options for Milgum and J-class respectively?

I am purely speculating, but my gut feeling suggest that the calculated arrow shot by @Bilal Khan (Quwa) in darkness, has hit the right spot... Because the (I) Navy has repeatedly updated its plans (ii) construction schadule of Milgum class suggests that all four vessels are of similar type. After Milgum-P, which are tailored to meet Pakistan demands, will come J-class which is Pakistan's own evolution on I-class.

Yep. Either way, I think the PN is predisposed now to keep ordering MILGEMs (due to the design rights IP and know-how transfer) ahead of all other ship types. Like Turkey, the PN should be aiming to get at least 12 MILGEMs (albeit in multiple variants, e.g., MILGEM-mod, MILGEM-J, etc).

The only downside is that KSEW is pretty inefficient compared to Chinese yards meaning costs will be higher, induction will be slow.

While China may be offering some very attractive financial options and produce the frigates like biscuits in a factory.

The PN can offload some work to Gwadar and Port Qasim. In fact, this is the opportunity for it to give the private sector a real jolt. If the PN says, "we require 8 follow-on MILGEM-J frigates, and we'll contract 4-6 of these ships to private sector builders in Pakistan" then the new shipyards will see investment. That will help with output, chances are almost all of the inputs (steel, engine, etc) will from abroad anyways.

 

[Armchair]

Yep. Either way, I think the PN is predisposed now to keep ordering MILGEMs (due to the design rights IP and know-how transfer) ahead of all other ship types. Like Turkey, the PN should be aiming to get at least 12 MILGEMs (albeit in multiple variants, e.g., MILGEM-mod, MILGEM-J, etc).

The PN can offload some work to Gwadar and Port Qasim. In fact, this is the opportunity for it to give the private sector a real jolt. If the PN says, "we require 8 follow-on MILGEM-J frigates, and we'll contract 4-6 of these ships to private sector builders in Pakistan" then the new shipyards will see investment. That will help with output, chances are almost all of the inputs (steel, engine, etc) will from abroad anyways.

Problem is, due to Pak military policies of distrusting civilians, incompetence, inefficiency and complete lack of knowledge about industrial policy, Pakistan doesn't have a strong civilian setup that can take on such a role.

The fastest way to get there is to turn KSEW, HIT, PAC into publicly traded corporations, and reduce public ownership to 20% or less, and allow only Pakistanis to purchase stocks for these national institutions.

This will result in a new crop of CEOs and businessmen taking over the companies and running them on an efficient basis. To really give Pak maritime industry a boost, PN should import South Korean and Chinese fishing vessels of various types and sizes, and try to make local alternative for them, from large ocean going ones to coastal boats. Make this part of KSEW (and spinoff into a publicly traded corporation).

Ensure that KSEW is then spun off further into smaller corporations - ones focused on the fishing industry, etc.

To get these companies competitive, dust off the 1960s plan to develop the coal and steel industry that Bhutto Senior lynched - two smaller steel plants from Germany (or some place competitive, not ancient aweful outdated ones from USSR), one near coal production, the other near iron or production, connect both regions with a rail link.

How I know all this - Late Dr. Zafar Altaf, former secretary of Agriculture, manager of Pakistan cricket team, my teacher, employer and mentor.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Problem is, due to Pak military policies of distrusting civilians, incompetence, inefficiency and complete lack of knowledge about industrial policy, Pakistan doesn't have a strong civilian setup that can take on such a role.

The fastest way to get there is to turn KSEW, HIT, PAC into publicly traded corporations, and reduce public ownership to 20% or less, and allow only Pakistanis to purchase stocks for these national institutions.

This will result in a new crop of CEOs and businessmen taking over the companies and running them on an efficient basis. To really give Pak maritime industry a boost, PN should import South Korean and Chinese fishing vessels of various types and sizes, and try to make local alternative for them, from large ocean going ones to coastal boats. Make this part of KSEW (and spinoff into a publicly traded corporation).

Ensure that KSEW is then spun off further into smaller corporations - ones focused on the fishing industry, etc.

To get these companies competitive, dust off the 1960s plan to develop the coal and steel industry that Bhutto Senior lynched - two smaller steel plants from Germany (or some place competitive, not ancient aweful outdated ones from USSR), one near coal production, the other near iron or production, connect both regions with a rail link.

How I know all this - Late Dr. Zafar Altaf, former secretary of Agriculture, manager of Pakistan cricket team, my teacher, employer and mentor.

In general, yes, but specifically re: shipbuilding, the PN wants to offload Gwadar and Port Qasim to the private sector. It said this in the open at IDEAS 2018 and had invited experts (including from CSOC/CSIC) to look at ways (via offsets, CPEC-related FDI, etc) to activate those shipyards.

In the near-term, these new shipyards will take on more ship repair and maintenance work, but they can handle net-new builds if the PN decides to channel demand their way instead of going to China, Netherlands, etc.

 

[Armchair]

In general, yes, but specifically re: shipbuilding, the PN wants to offload Gwadar and Port Qasim to the private sector. It said this in the open at IDEAS 2018 and had invited experts (including from CSOC/CSIC) to look at ways (via offsets, CPEC-related FDI, etc) to activate those shipyards.

In the near-term, these new shipyards will take on more ship repair and maintenance work, but they can handle net-new builds if the PN decides to channel demand their way instead of going to China, Netherlands, etc.

Problem is in desi culture, people say a lot of things but their actions and reality don't match with the words. Local industry is nowhere near ability to build Milgem or anything remotely similar... when the fundamentals are all wrong and no meaningful steps have been taken, such words cannot be taken seriously.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Problem is in desi culture, people say a lot of things but their actions and reality don't match with the words. Local industry is nowhere near ability to build Milgem or anything remotely similar... when the fundamentals are all wrong and no meaningful steps have been taken, such words cannot be taken seriously.

I think we should parse out a few things here.

What do we mean by 'build a MILGEM locally?' I was being realistic from the start by saying that the inputs (such as propulsion, steel, electronics, etc) will be sourced from overseas.

The issue I was pointing to is the end-state construction (i.e., putting those inputs together). The PN is literally buying the design rights to the MILGEM, so it will learn (via NRDI, MTC) how to do this task and contract it out (to KSEW et. al).

Not only that, but the PN now has 3 projects involving original design work (albeit with the use of foreign inputs): the FAC(M) #4, MILGEM, and the gun-boat FAC.

They're all following the same model of most shipbuilders out there (basically anyone not USA, Europe, China, Russia, Japan, ROK).

So, realistically speaking, the ability to at least contract out additional MILGEM work to the local industry is there, provided they stick to their own plan of having NRDI et. al create new designs, find cost-effective inputs, and develop documentation as well as training for the other shipyards.

The other aspect is that a part of the PN is punching above its weight so-to-speak -- a part is taking the short-cut route of Type 054A/P and Type 039As, and another is also pushing into backing original designs, being more ambitious, etc.

That latter force is behind the MILGEM, LRMPA, miniature SSK, etc.

It's also that latter force (and I met them personally) that is (given the dearth of public funding) trying to get the private sector involved in Gwadar and Port Qasim. Statements during Senate Hearings are empty, but backroom meetings (on this subject) with relevant CSOC/CSIC heads are probably not.

Anyways, I get the need to be critical and inquisitive, but we should also avoid sweeping every single little thing with a "no, no, no, no" (or vice-versa).

No one would have figured the PN to go for the MILGEM, then get it customized, and then buy the IP rights, and, on the side, apparently work with Embraer on an entirely new LRMPA platform. There's an exception at play here, and we ought to study it deeper instead of dismissing it.

PS: My 'takes' on the MILGEM, LRMPA, etc were never based on insider info, but all purely analysis. @cabatli_53, @Tank131 and @Nutuk will testify to this: When there was only the Ada, I was the only one on the worldwide web who brought up the idea of the PN possibly customizing it with VLS in 2016.

I can't get everything right, but when I see smoke, I tend to find fire

 

[Tank131]

I think we should parse out a few things here.

What do we mean by 'build a MILGEM locally?' I was being realistic from the start by saying that the inputs (such as propulsion, steel, electronics, etc) will be sourced from overseas.

The issue I was pointing to is the end-state construction (i.e., putting those inputs together). The PN is literally buying the design rights to the MILGEM, so it will learn (via NRDI, MTC) how to do this task and contract it out (to KSEW et. al).

Not only that, but the PN now has 3 projects involving original design work (albeit with the use of foreign inputs): the FAC(M) #4, MILGEM, and the gun-boat FAC.

They're all following the same model of most shipbuilders out there (basically anyone not USA, Europe, China, Russia, Japan, ROK).

So, realistically speaking, the ability to at least contract out additional MILGEM work to the local industry is there, provided they stick to their own plan of having NRDI et. al create new designs, find cost-effective inputs, and develop documentation as well as training for the other shipyards.

The other aspect is that a part of the PN is punching above its weight so-to-speak -- a part is taking the short-cut route of Type 054A/P and Type 039As, and another is also pushing into backing original designs, being more ambitious, etc.

That latter force is behind the MILGEM, LRMPA, miniature SSK, etc.

It's also that latter force (and I met them personally) that is (given the dearth of public funding) trying to get the private sector involved in Gwadar and Port Qasim. Statements during Senate Hearings are empty, but backroom meetings (on this subject) with relevant CSOC/CSIC heads are probably not.

Anyways, I get the need to be critical and inquisitive, but we should also avoid sweeping every single little thing with a "no, no, no, no" (or vice-versa).

No one would have figured the PN to go for the MILGEM, then get it customized, and then buy the IP rights, and, on the side, apparently work with Embraer on an entirely new LRMPA platform. There's an exception at play here, and we ought to study it deeper instead of dismissing it.

PS: My 'takes' on the MILGEM, LRMPA, etc were never based on insider info, but all purely analysis. @cabatli_53, @Tank131 and @Nutuk will testify to this: When there was only the Ada, I was the only one on the worldwide web who brought up the idea of the PN possibly customizing it with VLS in 2016.

I can't get everything right, but when I see smoke, I tend to find fire

As you said, a few of us wished it into being so to speak!