Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

As you said, a few of us wished it into being so to speak!

...and this one too apparently Lol.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

How many Frigates and Destroyers you are going to have in Future?
4 Type 054As+4 Milgems+4 F22Ps=12
Destroyers=0

India
Current Total 12+7 Nilgiri Class in Future+4 Admiral Grigorovich-class(Future) =23
Destroyers=11+4 Visakhapatnam (Future)=15

We don't use the "D" word in Pakistan Navy it disturbs our neighbors

 

[Armchair]

I can't get everything right, but when I see smoke, I tend to find fire

And we are always betting on you my friend to find fire : )

 

[Dreamer.]

Probably. Considering the increasing number of vessels which can support helicopters, we will be needing to replace old fleet + expand modern helicopter fleet. AW101 is expensive. So is NH90. As far as I know, helicopter is not final either.

IMO, given the attention navy is seeing and considering CPEC/Gawadar etc. being expensive shouldn't stop PN from getting AW101. It's the successor to the Seaking and capability wise it's well worth the cost. We could get it in small batches if necessary. It'd be a shame if finances were the only reason we couldn't get AW101. However, if we can't get it (or the NH90) for whatever reason then the only european option left would be naval versions of AW139/AW149. Though I'd prefer GoP to cough up the money and get the AW101, even if in small numbers.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

IMO, given the attention navy is seeing and considering CPEC/Gawadar etc. being expensive shouldn't stop PN from getting AW101. It's the successor to the Seaking and capability wise it's well worth the cost. We could get it in small batches if necessary. It'd be a shame if finances were the only reason we couldn't get AW101. However, if we can't get it (or the NH90) for whatever reason then the only european option left would be naval versions of AW139/AW149. Though I'd prefer GoP to cough up the money and get the AW101, even if in small numbers.

Ultimately, I don't think the Navy would get that many AW101/NH-90 class helicopters anyways; they may be too large for most of our ships. I wouldn't expect more than 4-6 in an initial batch, and total requirements will cap at most to 8-12 (including attrition reserves).

The real test with the ship-borne ASW/AShW/SAR helicopter. They'll need quite a few of those to fill-out the 054A/P, MILGEM, OPV 1900, etc. I think the ideal candidate is the UH-60/S-70, but that's probably a no-go unless there's a CSF/FMF program to back it.

Not to beat 'that drum,' but we could also work on Turkey's T-625. Basically, work with them to configure the T-625 into a ship-borne ASW/AShW/SAR helicopter. The good thing about it this is that it'll have the same engine and critical parts as the standard utility T-625 *and* the 6-ton tandem-seat attack helicopter. So, a standard platform for many needs.

 

[Zarvan]

Ultimately, I don't think the Navy would get that many AW101/NH-90 class helicopters anyways; they may be too large for most of our ships. I wouldn't expect more than 4-6 in an initial batch, and total requirements will cap at most to 8-12 (including attrition reserves).

The real test with the ship-borne ASW/AShW/SAR helicopter. They'll need quite a few of those to fill-out the 054A/P, MILGEM, OPV 1900, etc. I think the ideal candidate is the UH-60/S-70, but that's probably a no-go unless there's a CSF/FMF program to back it.

Not to beat 'that drum,' but we could also work on Turkey's T-625. Basically, work with them to configure the T-625 into a ship-borne ASW/AShW/SAR helicopter. The good thing about it this is that it'll have the same engine and critical parts as the standard utility T-625 *and* the 6-ton tandem-seat attack helicopter. So, a standard platform for many needs.

Sir China is developing naval versions of its Transport helicopters also.

 

[Tipu7]

Ultimately, I don't think the Navy would get that many AW101/NH-90 class helicopters anyways; they may be too large for most of our ships. I wouldn't expect more than 4-6 in an initial batch, and total requirements will cap at most to 8-12 (including attrition reserves).

The real test with the ship-borne ASW/AShW/SAR helicopter. They'll need quite a few of those to fill-out the 054A/P, MILGEM, OPV 1900, etc. I think the ideal candidate is the UH-60/S-70, but that's probably a no-go unless there's a CSF/FMF program to back it.

Not to beat 'that drum,' but we could also work on Turkey's T-625. Basically, work with them to configure the T-625 into a ship-borne ASW/AShW/SAR helicopter. The good thing about it this is that it'll have the same engine and critical parts as the standard utility T-625 *and* the 6-ton tandem-seat attack helicopter. So, a standard platform for many needs.

Navy won't go for any US equipment. The candidates for Navy’s helicopters are in Europe only. Rest you are good in firing calculated Arrows...

View attachment 648936 View attachment 648937 View attachment 648938
Sir China is developing naval versions of its Transport helicopters also.

Our experience with Z9C keeps us away from repeating it again. So far, no Chinese helicopters.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Navy won't go for any US equipment. The candidates for Navy’s helicopters are in Europe only. Rest you are good in firing calculated Arrows...


Our experience with Z9C keeps us away from repeating it again. So far, no Chinese helicopters.

I think 4-6 AW101s can happen. Though it's $100+ m per aircraft, an overall deal under $500 m is manageable, and with the Sea Kings still around I don't think this program will get serious until closer to 2030. However, bear in mind that there is a lower-cost alternative: H225M Caracal.

But for anything else from Europe, the PN will need a pared down solution. I can't see them going for the AW159 with all of its bells and whistles. It might have been doable if there were only 4 ships in need of helicopters, but the PN has 10 new ships in need, that's around 15 aircraft (based on the 6 Z-9ECs for 4 F-22Ps). If the PN opts for the AW159 with everything (i.e., $55 m per aircraft), that's $825 m. Quite a hefty bill.

One alternative -- and I think Leonardo would do it -- is navalize the AW149/AW189K. Unlike the AW159, they can create a new system from scratch. Basically, pick-out lower-cost subsystems (or omit some subsystems) and anti-ship/anti-sub weapons. There's also enough room in the AW149/AW189K for troops, so Leonardo can position it as a replacement to the Sea King. This could be a deal for the PN at $30-40 m per aircraft.

 

[Armchair]

I think 4-6 AW101s can happen. Though it's $100+ m per aircraft, an overall deal under $500 m is manageable, and with the Sea Kings still around I don't think this program will get serious until closer to 2030. However, bear in mind that there is a lower-cost alternative: H225M Caracal.

But for anything else from Europe, the PN will need a pared down solution. I can't see them going for the AW159 with all of its bells and whistles. It might have been doable if there were only 4 ships in need of helicopters, but the PN has 10 new ships in need, that's around 15 aircraft (based on the 6 Z-9ECs for 4 F-22Ps). If the PN opts for the AW159 with everything (i.e., $55 m per aircraft), that's $825 m. Quite a hefty bill.

One alternative -- and I think Leonardo would do it -- is navalize the AW149/AW189K. Unlike the AW159, they can create a new system from scratch. Basically, pick-out lower-cost subsystems (or omit some subsystems) and anti-ship/anti-sub weapons. There's also enough room in the AW149/AW189K for troops, so Leonardo can position it as a replacement to the Sea King. This could be a deal for the PN at $30-40 m per aircraft.

Perhaps the Chinese boats can get Chinese helicopters. And PN being far sighted, could go with the Turkish 625 and eventually get a helicopter at a more decent price.

I think the AW-101s are a done deal though. Only way they could be priced reasonably if they are second hand from Italian navy stock.

By the way, this is why I was saying, better to leave helicopters out of the Azmat derivative / corvette mix.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Perhaps the Chinese boats can get Chinese helicopters. And PN being far sighted, could go with the Turkish 625 and eventually get a helicopter at a more decent price.

I think the AW-101s are a done deal though. Only way they could be priced reasonably if they are second hand from Italian navy stock.

They can also get multiple configurations of the AW101. The costliest ones ($100+ m) are the fully-decked ASW and AShW-capable variants. So, the PN could get 2 of those and 4 troop carriers with only an EO/IR turret (likely closer to $40-50 m per helicopter). Obviously, it'd look to add another 2-4 of the ASW/AShW-capable ones.

But for the mainstay fleet -- i.e., the next 10 ships, and potentially more if the MILGEM-J continues -- then I think the ideal route is buying into the T625. In fact, the Turks may be interested in a naval variant, so they might take on the cost of developing it on their own, and have a subsystem set they can apply to it.

 

[Tipu7]

An interesting factor to include is, PN also seeks an helicopter borne Early Warning system.
Sea King and AW101, both offer such versions.
This strengthen the case of AW101 against other examples. But we never know, may be PN will acquire two different size helicopters (each with different versions too) to supplement its variable requirements.
The combo of AW101 (Transport, AEW, ASW) with T625 (neval version with ASW & transport version) seems plausible for PN to replace (and expand) its rotary wing fleet.

They can also get multiple configurations of the AW101. The costliest ones ($100+ m) are the fully-decked ASW and AShW-capable variants. So, the PN could get 2 of those and 4 troop carriers with only an EO/IR turret (likely closer to $40-50 m per helicopter). Obviously, it'd look to add another 2-4 of the ASW/AShW-capable ones.

But for the mainstay fleet -- i.e., the next 10 ships, and potentially more if the MILGEM-J continues -- then I think the ideal route is buying into the T625. In fact, the Turks may be interested in a naval variant, so they might take on the cost of developing it on their own, and have a subsystem set they can apply to it.

 

[LKJ86]

View attachment 635968
Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo

Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo

 

[Armchair]

View attachment 654431 View attachment 654432
Via @卫星图像发烧员 from Weibo

That is unbelievable speed. How do the Chinese do it?

 

[TsAr]

That is unbelievable speed. How do the Chinese do it?

Manpower, dedication and Communist danda, no labor unions.

 

[LKJ86]

Manpower, dedication and Communist danda, no labor unions.

You just missed the key point: Industrialization

USA also used to be like that, but now under deindustrialization.