Pakistan Navy: The Phoenix Rises

[wiseone2]

Nobody here is saying that Pakistan woke up one day and started building a nuclear sub.

you woke up after IN inducted Arihant

 

[Areesh]

you woke up after IN inducted Arihant

Not really.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I see that I am not going to be getting through here with you which is fine

For the readers if there are indeed any of this line of thought, it is obviously a matter to ponder why the Carter admin put unilateral sanctions in 1979 if they were indeed clueless about Pakistani nuclear program till 90's. Or why a Pressler amendment was needed after the end of the Symington waiver to continue mil-aid. And why immediately after the Soviet being kicked out the sanctions were back again.
This not counting the fact that the Israelis and Indians had planned strikes on this supposedly invisible nuclear reactor in 1982 which was thwarted in part by the Reagan administration.​

Sire according to declassified papers americans even in the 90s thought we were pursuing nuclear weapons... yet we had already conducted cold tests back in 83...

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/pakistan/nuke-statements.htm

In 1990 they banned assistance to stop us from developing weapons that we had already developed in 83.

All this while we were openly building reactors and nuclear sites for "peaceful" purposes... buying uranium from Niger through Libya and components from europe.


US intel (considering ISI-CIA cooperation in the cold war) still sucked as far as our nuclear program was/is concerned.

Nobody believed we had plutonium based warheads either..? We did didnt we?

Nobody believed we could miniaturise nuclear warheads to tactical level and alot of other things.. we did..

 

[wiseone2]

Sire according to declassified papers americans even in the 90s thought we were pursuing nuclear weapons... yet we had already conducted cold tests back in 83...

By 1983 CIA was aware of Pakistani nuclear program. India was aware by 1985-1986

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

you woke up after IN inducted Arihant

The difference between you and us is.. that even if you make a bolt for an imported arty gun you boast as if you have discovered the holy grail.... while when we even build a new sniper rifle and even market it... we dont boast about it either can you find it on any of our official websites.. its only incidental that its believed by a third source...

Here is just one of the new LSR (in production--- pics again leaked).. and you wont even find any mention on any POF site:

This is your under development or failed rifle and you can find a billion articles,pics and opinions on it..

By 1983 CIA was aware of Pakistani nuclear program. India was aware by 1985-1986

And by 83.. we had already built the bomb..

 

[wiseone2]

The difference between you and us is.. that even if you make a bolt for an imported arty gun you boast as if you have discovered the holy grail.... while when we even build a new sniper rifle and even market it... we dont boast about it either can you find it on any of our official websites.. its only incidental that its believed by a third source...

Here is just one of the new LSR (in production--- pics again leaked).. and you wont even find any mention on any POF site:

View attachment 345081


This is your under development or failed rifle and you can find a billion articles,pics and opinions on it..

View attachment 345083



And by 83.. we had already built the bomb..

I said by 1983. I would not know when the CIA actually knew

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

I said by 1983. I would not know when the CIA actually knew

They didnt till the 90s... testified by declassified US papers..

In 1990 they banned assistance to Pak.. in order to prevent Pak from developing nuclear weapons.. ironically we tested them in 83..

 

[wiseone2]

They didnt till the 90s... testified by declassified US papers..

In 1990 they banned assistance to Pak.. in order to prevent Pak from developing nuclear weapons.. ironically we tested them in 83..

during the cold war CIA looked the other way

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

during the cold war CIA looked the other way

Declassified papers say otherwise.

 

[wiseone2]

Declassified papers say otherwise.

why would they declassify everything ?? it seems pretty relevant/hot to this day

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

why would they declassify everything ?? it seems pretty relevant/hot to this day

And you know more than the CIA?

 

[Indus Falcon]

And by 83.. we had already built the bomb..

Actually PAF had perfected "Bomb Toss" by '83, if memory serves me right.

 

[amardeep mishra]

Sir, does the whole world knows where we are getting the material for DU rounds? Where are the small scale nuclear plants in operation?

I am sorry but i cannot go into details but trust me when i say that it is not all as simple as you think.

Hi my dear @Arsalan
I agree when you say things are not really as simple as they seem--maybe because it is how pakistan works--in terms of research culture both india and pakistan are poles apart! I would like to add my own bit. First off,I am not too sure about procurement of depleted uranium for DU rounds hence I would strictly refrain from commenting. But since I happen to know couple of things regarding a nuclear plant especially naval plants based on my own studies,visits and interaction with friends who are control engineers at some of our own indigenous plants,i can surely help put things in perspective.
My main points were two fold and I will list them under two headings in a more structured manner,so that other readers can clearly understand my point-
1) Construction of reactor core
Normally naval prototypes are constructed at an already existing site. This means "expansion of the nuclear plants" in terms of "big buildings". Of course one cant see the huge pressure vessel as it is housed inside a building as you saw in the case of our own naval prototype reactor.But construction of a huge separate building at an existing nuclear facility in pakistan is enough to raise a A LOT of suspicion.Things will eventually creep out. I mean it is not like hiding a miniaturized warhead that can be stashed away in under ground places or something like that. Reactor building is a static thing.

2)Procurement of very specific items for reactor
I am sure,you would agree,pakistan doesnt have forging capabilities in any practical sense.Hence fundamental building blocks of the reactor i.e pressure vessel,pressurizer(as it is essentially a pressurized water reactor and not liquid metal,molten salt reactor),turbines etc have to be imported from possibly china or some place else. Kindly note these pressure vessel,pressurizer etc have to be made such that they can withstand the salinity of sea. The reactor itself should be designed in such a way it should be able to withstand various lateral forces .These transactions are also monitored by various intelligence agencies.

So in the light of #1 and #2 ,pakistan cant really hide the development of naval reactor.

 

[Arsalan]

you woke up after IN inducted Arihant

No, this is not right and what ever little is happening have been under study and consideration for MORE than a decade now. No matter how much you love to think that the earth revolves around India it is not the case. In fact, the rest few weeks/months have badly exposed the obsession of Indian media, military and public with Pakistan. I am not sure if this is a particularly right time to stick with the that stance that it is Pakistan who have made this a matter of prestige. We all know well who had their egos blown out of proportion first, only to then was dealt a blow. We all have seen the ridiculous attempts at face saving and all to no avail. So bahi jan, perhaps you should come up some new excuse in your one liners

Hi my dear @Arsalan
I agree when you say things are not really as simple as they seem--maybe because it is how pakistan works--in terms of research culture both india and pakistan are poles apart! I would like to add my own bit. First off,I am not too sure about procurement of depleted uranium for DU rounds hence I would strictly refrain from commenting. But since I happen to know couple of things regarding a nuclear plant especially naval plants based on my own studies,visits and interaction with friends who are control engineers at some of our own indigenous plants,i can surely help put things in perspective.
My main points were two fold and I will list them under two headings in a more structured manner,so that other readers can clearly understand my point-
1) Construction of reactor core
Normally naval prototypes are constructed at an already existing site. This means "expansion of the nuclear plants" in terms of "big buildings". Of course one cant see the huge pressure vessel as it is housed inside a building as you saw in the case of our own naval prototype reactor.But construction of a huge separate building at an existing nuclear facility in pakistan is enough to raise a A LOT of suspicion.Things will eventually creep out. I mean it is not like hiding a miniaturized warhead that can be stashed away in under ground places or something like that. Reactor building is a static thing.

2)Procurement of very specific items for reactor
I am sure,you would agree,pakistan doesnt have forging capabilities in any practical sense.Hence fundamental building blocks of the reactor i.e pressure vessel,pressurizer(as it is essentially a pressurized water reactor and not liquid metal,molten salt reactor),turbines etc have to be imported from possibly china or some place else. Kindly note these pressure vessel,pressurizer etc have to be made such that they can withstand the salinity of sea. The reactor itself should be designed in such a way it should be able to withstand various lateral forces .These transactions are also monitored by various intelligence agencies.

So in the light of #1 and #2 ,pakistan cant really hide the development of naval reactor.

Again, i am sorry that i wont be able to shed too much light on this matter but here in the punch line, as you said, "in terms of research culture both India and Pakistan are poles apart!" and trust me when i say that you have NO IDEA about how Pakistan is handling this matter. There are sites/installation that people have no clue about.

So all i can say on this matter is that IF Pakistan was actually working on a naval nuclear propulsion system you wont have known about that anyway because you are looking in the wrong place and thinking about the whole thing the wrong way.

Anyway, i cannot force you to believe anything that you do not want to and i cannot possibly add any more details to what i have said.

 

[amardeep mishra]

So all i can say on this matter is that IF Pakistan was actually working on a naval nuclear propulsion system you wont have known about that anyway because you are looking in the wrong place and thinking about the whole thing the wrong way.

Hi @Arsalan
yes,I agree,perhaps I wouldnt have known if they were really working on such a thing.But intelligence agencies would have known by now. Anyways,dont you think pakistan with practically no experience of designing "power reactors" would take considerably longer time to put up reactor system in place than it took for india?--kindly note it took almost 2 decades just to perfect the naval reactor design and integrate it with hull especially when india have had decent experience with PHWRs and has designed fast breeder,AHWR and even CHTR reactors. Kindly note,I am not even touching upon various other aspects since I am sure it will meet the same response.
In my opinion,in the absence of any concrete evidence,It is best for us to wait instead of speculating.