Pakistan Navy Questions Thread

[Penguin]

Yes you are right too. Although NESCOM, GIDS and SUPARCO along with other Public and Private corps should be working on developing Electrical/Electronics, Mechanical, Chemical and other equipment by doing R&D locally as well as with other countries like China and EU.

More over, PN has and had a great chance of bringing in close KSA, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco to start up a plan for:
5000 Tons Frigate
2500 Tons Corvette
1100 Tons FAC
0300 Tons Missile Craft

Although only KSA, Pakistan, Libya and Algeria would go for 5000 Frigate the rest will have all the other equipment other than this heavy frigate. We can design on our own by taking help from China, Japan/Korea and EU.

Also we need to work on Submarines together:
7000 SSBN
3500 SSKs
1600 SSKs
0700 SSKs - Coastal
0110 Special Force Submarine
Rescue Submarine

As if ...

1) An 1100 ton FAC !?!?!? FAC's typically dont go over 600 tons. This is rubbish

Looking at the modern ships of the respective navies:

2) Algeria already ordered 2x 3500 ton MEKO A200 (with an option for a further 2, to expand fleet capability) and 3x 2800 ton C28A (to place Soviet era Koni's) as well as a pair of 2000 ton Russian 20382.Kilo Class 877EKM It has 2 Kilo class 877EKM, 2 Kilo class 636M, with 2 more on order. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?

3) Morocco already operates a 6000-7000 ton FREMM frigate. It has three SIGMA frigates from the Netherlands, in 2 variations (a pair of 2075 ton Sigma 9813 and a single 2350 ton Sigma 10513). It has no submarines service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships?

4) The Tunisian Navy is a coastal defence force without the submarine or major combatant capabilities deployed by its neighbours. The Tunesian navy numbers for 2008 were about 4,800 personnel, operating 25 patrol boats and 6 other crafts. Their largest surface combattants are 9 FACs of around 400 ton.Combattante III, Type 143B. It has no submarine service. The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them.

5) The Libyan navy went from 2 Koni 'frigates' in 2006 to 1 in 2012, 2 Nanuchka's in 2006 to none in 2012, 9 (7 operational) combattante II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012, 12 × (4 operational) OSA II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012.
9 × (5 operational) Natya class minesweepers (Type 266ME) in 2006 to 2 in 2012 (1 operational). In 1982 Libya received six Foxtrot-class military submarines from the USSR. However, since 1984, no submarine patrols are reported to have been conducted.In 2011, during the Libyan civil war, one submarine (along with a frigate and a corvette) was captured by the rebels at the Benghazi naval base. So 1 remains in 2012.The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them

6) The Yemeni navy is a 1700 person force, with 2 500t Tarantul 1 and 8 Osa missile boats. Some patrol boats and minesweepers. It has no submarine service The country is in no position to afford or man any of the above mentioned ships or boats. It is investing in modern patrol boats

7) Oman as recently as 2009-2011 acquired 3x 2650ton Khareef class corvette from UK, to supplement its 2 1850 ton Qahir class from the mid 1990s. These are supporte by 4 missile FACs and 3 fast patrol boats. It has no submarine service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?

8) UAE has a small force of about 2,500 personnel that maintains well-equipped coastal patrol boats and missile boats (3x new 1650 ton Abu Dhabi class corvettes, 6x new 930 tons Baynunah corvettes 2x Lürssen 62 630 ton 'corvettes'; 6 Lürssen TNC-45 260 ton FAC, ). No submarines service.They have just invested in 6=3 new ships, and are in no need for expansion or upgrading.

9) KSA has 3x fairly new (2002-2004) 4725 ton frigates that are modified, enlarged versions of the French La Fayette class. Four frenchbuilt 2,610 tons frigate from the mid 1980s. It has 4 US-built 1100 ton missile corvettes from 1981–83. And 9 US-built 500ton missile armed patrol boats, from 1972-1980. Saudi Arabia wants to buy five German submarines for around €2.5 billion ($3.4 billion) and more than two dozen more in the future. It is eying a pair of Arleigh Burke destroyers plus a number of LCS from the US.

Dream on.

 

[Nishan_101]

As if ...

1) An 1100 ton FAC !?!?!? FAC's typically dont go over 600 tons. This is rubbish

Looking at the modern ships of the respective navies:

2) Algeria already ordered 2x 3500 ton MEKO A200 (with an option for a further 2, to expand fleet capability) and 3x 2800 ton C28A (to place Soviet era Koni's) as well as a pair of 2000 ton Russian 20382.Kilo Class 877EKM It has 2 Kilo class 877EKM, 2 Kilo class 636M, with 2 more on order. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?

3) Morocco already operates a 6000-7000 ton FREMM frigate. It has three SIGMA frigates from the Netherlands, in 2 variations (a pair of 2075 ton Sigma 9813 and a single 2350 ton Sigma 10513). It has no submarines service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships?

4) The Tunisian Navy is a coastal defence force without the submarine or major combatant capabilities deployed by its neighbours. The Tunesian navy numbers for 2008 were about 4,800 personnel, operating 25 patrol boats and 6 other crafts. Their largest surface combattants are 9 FACs of around 400 ton.Combattante III, Type 143B. It has no submarine service. The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them.

5) The Libyan navy went from 2 Koni 'frigates' in 2006 to 1 in 2012, 2 Nanuchka's in 2006 to none in 2012, 9 (7 operational) combattante II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012, 12 × (4 operational) OSA II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012.
9 × (5 operational) Natya class minesweepers (Type 266ME) in 2006 to 2 in 2012 (1 operational). In 1982 Libya received six Foxtrot-class military submarines from the USSR. However, since 1984, no submarine patrols are reported to have been conducted.In 2011, during the Libyan civil war, one submarine (along with a frigate and a corvette) was captured by the rebels at the Benghazi naval base. So 1 remains in 2012.The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them

6) The Yemeni navy is a 1700 person force, with 2 500t Tarantul 1 and 8 Osa missile boats. Some patrol boats and minesweepers. It has no submarine service The country is in no position to afford or man any of the above mentioned ships or boats. It is investing in modern patrol boats

7) Oman as recently as 2009-2011 acquired 3x 2650ton Khareef class corvette from UK, to supplement its 2 1850 ton Qahir class from the mid 1990s. These are supporte by 4 missile FACs and 3 fast patrol boats. It has no submarine service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?

8) UAE has a small force of about 2,500 personnel that maintains well-equipped coastal patrol boats and missile boats (3x new 1650 ton Abu Dhabi class corvettes, 6x new 930 tons Baynunah corvettes 2x Lürssen 62 630 ton 'corvettes'; 6 Lürssen TNC-45 260 ton FAC, ). No submarines service.They have just invested in 6=3 new ships, and are in no need for expansion or upgrading.

9) KSA has 3x fairly new (2002-2004) 4725 ton frigates that are modified, enlarged versions of the French La Fayette class. Four frenchbuilt 2,610 tons frigate from the mid 1980s. It has 4 US-built 1100 ton missile corvettes from 1981–83. And 9 US-built 500ton missile armed patrol boats, from 1972-1980. Saudi Arabia wants to buy five German submarines for around €2.5 billion ($3.4 billion) and more than two dozen more in the future. It is eying a pair of Arleigh Burke destroyers plus a number of LCS from the US.

Dream on.

But all of the GCC needs to develop their Naval Fleet and especially submarines...

If not wrong KSA and UAE are in great interest in developing their own submarine force then why not invite some more people in it Like Oman and Yemen and go a head for a JV with Germans.

 

[fatman17]

was this EDA ever delivered to PN?

 

[truthseeker2010]

As if ...

1) An 1100 ton FAC !?!?!? FAC's typically dont go over 600 tons. This is rubbish

Looking at the modern ships of the respective navies:

2) Algeria already ordered 2x 3500 ton MEKO A200 (with an option for a further 2, to expand fleet capability) and 3x 2800 ton C28A (to place Soviet era Koni's) as well as a pair of 2000 ton Russian 20382.Kilo Class 877EKM It has 2 Kilo class 877EKM, 2 Kilo class 636M, with 2 more on order. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?

3) Morocco already operates a 6000-7000 ton FREMM frigate. It has three SIGMA frigates from the Netherlands, in 2 variations (a pair of 2075 ton Sigma 9813 and a single 2350 ton Sigma 10513). It has no submarines service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships?

4) The Tunisian Navy is a coastal defence force without the submarine or major combatant capabilities deployed by its neighbours. The Tunesian navy numbers for 2008 were about 4,800 personnel, operating 25 patrol boats and 6 other crafts. Their largest surface combattants are 9 FACs of around 400 ton.Combattante III, Type 143B. It has no submarine service. The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them.

5) The Libyan navy went from 2 Koni 'frigates' in 2006 to 1 in 2012, 2 Nanuchka's in 2006 to none in 2012, 9 (7 operational) combattante II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012, 12 × (4 operational) OSA II FAC in 2006 to none in 2012.
9 × (5 operational) Natya class minesweepers (Type 266ME) in 2006 to 2 in 2012 (1 operational). In 1982 Libya received six Foxtrot-class military submarines from the USSR. However, since 1984, no submarine patrols are reported to have been conducted.In 2011, during the Libyan civil war, one submarine (along with a frigate and a corvette) was captured by the rebels at the Benghazi naval base. So 1 remains in 2012.The country is in transition and is in no way to afford any of the above mentioned ships or boats. Nor man them

6) The Yemeni navy is a 1700 person force, with 2 500t Tarantul 1 and 8 Osa missile boats. Some patrol boats and minesweepers. It has no submarine service The country is in no position to afford or man any of the above mentioned ships or boats. It is investing in modern patrol boats

7) Oman as recently as 2009-2011 acquired 3x 2650ton Khareef class corvette from UK, to supplement its 2 1850 ton Qahir class from the mid 1990s. These are supporte by 4 missile FACs and 3 fast patrol boats. It has no submarine service. Why on earth would they need to develop 5000 ton and 2500 ton ships? Or subs?

8) UAE has a small force of about 2,500 personnel that maintains well-equipped coastal patrol boats and missile boats (3x new 1650 ton Abu Dhabi class corvettes, 6x new 930 tons Baynunah corvettes 2x Lürssen 62 630 ton 'corvettes'; 6 Lürssen TNC-45 260 ton FAC, ). No submarines service.They have just invested in 6=3 new ships, and are in no need for expansion or upgrading.

9) KSA has 3x fairly new (2002-2004) 4725 ton frigates that are modified, enlarged versions of the French La Fayette class. Four frenchbuilt 2,610 tons frigate from the mid 1980s. It has 4 US-built 1100 ton missile corvettes from 1981–83. And 9 US-built 500ton missile armed patrol boats, from 1972-1980. Saudi Arabia wants to buy five German submarines for around €2.5 billion ($3.4 billion) and more than two dozen more in the future. It is eying a pair of Arleigh Burke destroyers plus a number of LCS from the US.

Dream on.

Sir what is or should be a ratio of ships to naval personnel?, i mean PN is currently around 31000 but it has around 74 ships but most of them are small combatants like boats or missile craft, but around 20 proper ships.. I think PN is way more overstaffed.

 

[Imran Khan]

View attachment 23274
was this EDA ever delivered to PN?

nope sir

US Coast Guard (USCG)
Vessel Name: USCGC ACUSHNET
Commissioned: Aug. 23, 1946
Decommissioned: Mar. 11, 2011

Final Disposition: Sold at government auction (2011)

 

[Penguin]

Sir what is or should be a ratio of ships to naval personnel?, i mean PN is currently around 31000 but it has around 74 ships but most of them are small combatants like boats or missile craft, but around 20 proper ships.. I think PN is way more overstaffed.

31000 includes what? Maritime Security Agency, Marines, Special Service Group Navy, science and technology organisations

 

[truthseeker2010]

31000 includes what? Maritime Security Agency, Marines, Special Service Group Navy, science and technology organisations

MSA is pure junk operating 4 very old "ships" and its a force of 5000 again a indication of over-staffing..... marines = 4-5000, SSGN = 1-2000.... if you add up its around 11000 so the rest 20000 for 20 ships is that good?

 

[Penguin]

MSA is pure junk operating 4 very old "ships" and its a force of 5000 again a indication of over-staffing..... marines = 4-5000, SSGN = 1-2000.... if you add up its around 11000 so the rest 20000 for 20 ships is that good?

Sounds about right to me....

Royal Netherlands navy (known to be keen on low manning concepts)
Size10,500 active duty personnel
850 reserve personnel
4 destroyers

2 frigates
4 offshore patrol vessels

6 minehunters
1 support ship
2 landing platform docks
4 submarines

40 other ships
1 Holland class offshore patrol vessel (undergoing trials)

1 Karel Doorman class support ship (under construction, commissioning in 2015)8 helicopters and 20 on order/being delivered



Country

Germany (like NL, keen on low manning concepts)
Size15,600 personnel
81 ships
52 aircraft
There are approximately 81 ships in commission including; 11 frigates, 5 corvettes, 8 fast attack craft, 5 minesweepers, 10 minehunters, 4 submarines, 23 auxiliary vessels and 15 miscellaneous vessels.

 

[truthseeker2010]

Sounds about right to me....

Royal Netherlands navy (known to be keen on low manning concepts)
Size10,500 active duty personnel
850 reserve personnel
4 destroyers

2 frigates
4 offshore patrol vessels

6 minehunters
1 support ship
2 landing platform docks
4 submarines

40 other ships
1 Holland class offshore patrol vessel (undergoing trials)

1 Karel Doorman class support ship (under construction, commissioning in 2015)8 helicopters and 20 on order/being delivered



Country

Germany (like NL, keen on low manning concepts)
Size15,600 personnel
81 ships
52 aircraft
There are approximately 81 ships in commission including; 11 frigates, 5 corvettes, 8 fast attack craft, 5 minesweepers, 10 minehunters, 4 submarines, 23 auxiliary vessels and 15 miscellaneous vessels.

Sir dutch navy 10500 includes 4800 marine corp so the rest 5700 for 22 ships is a very efficient and lean navy, i seriously have doubts and concerns regarding PN manpower size.

 

[Penguin]

Sir dutch navy 10500 includes 4800 marine corp so the rest 5700 for 22 ships is a very efficient and lean navy, i seriously have doubts and concerns regarding PN manpower size.

10 top of the line, low manning combat ships, 4 subs, 2 lpd. 6 mcm.

Compared to 11 frigates, 2 corvettes, 3 mcm, 5 subs. Of older date hence more manpower intensive.
Plus, there are significant technology development institutes ...

 

[truthseeker2010]

10 top of the line, low manning combat ships, 4 subs, 2 lpd. 6 mcm.

Compared to 11 frigates, 2 corvettes, 3 mcm, 5 subs. Of older date hence more manpower intensive.
Plus, there are significant technology development institutes ...

one more thing does PN have any landing ships or other supporting equipment for a marine force of 4 to 5 thousand, the clear answer is no, and do they have any plans for it ..... i don't think so given the current conditions...... and they are planning to raise a full corp of around 45000..... i mean this is completely insane for our navy to have a marine corp given its already limited resources.... the role of naval infantry should be for pak army...... i am clueless of how PN high command thinks and formulates.

 

[Mighty Caty]

If PN wanted OHP, I don't think US is the best place to source it, Australia will sell their OHP soon (Around 2016) when the new Hobart class and Canberra Class LHD enter service, they will sell their OHP dirt cheap

PN should also consider MEKO200 class ship, they are also quite capable and I heard some country is selling them.

 

[Penguin]

If PN wanted OHP, I don't think US is the best place to source it, Australia will sell their OHP soon (Around 2016) when the new Hobart class and Canberra Class LHD enter service, they will sell their OHP dirt cheap

I don't think so, considering how much the aussies spent on it.

The Adelaide class is a ship class of six guided missile frigates constructed in Australia and the United States of America for service in the Royal Australian Navy. The class is based on the United States Navy's Oliver Hazard Perry class frigates, but modified for Australian requirements. The first four vessels were built in the United States, while the other two were constructed in Australia.The first ship entered service in November 1980, and four of the six ships are active as of 2012. Canberra and Adelaide were paid off in 2005 and 2008 respectively, and later sunk as dive wrecks.The four surviving ships will be replaced by the Hobart class air-warfare destroyer from 2016 onwards.

In the mid-1990s, the Australian government commenced SEA 1390, also known as the FFG Upgrade Project.[8] Originally costing A$1 billion, which has expanded to A$1.46 billion, the project includes improvements to the combat and fire control system, the sonar suite, and the air defence missiles.[8] The upgrade was for four ships and intended to expand their service life to approximately 2020.[8] The project cost was partly offset by the decommissioning of the two oldest units.After the refit, the ships are capable of firing SM-2MR and RGM-84 Harpoon missiles from the Mark 13 launcher.[8] An 8-cell Mark 41 Vertical Launch System for Evolved Sea Sparrow Missile has also been installed forward of the Mark 13 launcher.[8] The Phalanx CIWS was upgraded to Block 1B,[verification needed] and the torpedoes, missiles, and other ship-mounted weapons were upgraded to the latest versions.The RAN and Thales subsequently claimed that the two upgraded ships were the "most capable ships in the history of the RAN".

PN should also consider MEKO200 class ship, they are also quite capable and I heard some country is selling them.

.Yeah, Germany! (South Africa has the only 4 operational ships and is not selling them, Algeria has a pair on order, Poland ordered smaller A100s)

 

[Hakan]

The Turkish G class frigates undergo a major modernization program. This includes retrofitting of the Turkish GENESIS digital combat management system (Gemi Entegre Savaş İdare Sistemi). For 4 ships, the modernization program further includes:

• The addition of an 8-cell Mk41 Baseline VII tactical modules for RIM-162 ESSM
• The upgrade of the Mk-92 fire control system built by Lockheed Martin (WM-25 under licence from Thales)
• The retrofitting of a new advanced Thales SMART-S Mk2 3D air search radar
• The addition of a new long range sonar

GABYA CLASS (O. H. Perry) |

Before

After

Before

After

Before

After

For Australia's upgrade see Australia’s Hazard(ous) Frigate Upgrades

@MrTopal27

 

[Nishan_101]

Just I wish that PN is looking in to taking Help from China on Submarines with Partners like Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco.