‘Pakistan Navy fully capable of defending country’s long coast’

[SQ8]

Sir how effective do you reckon the submarines would be as anti ship attack assets ?

The subs are very effective at anti ship attacks but they operate like guerillas. So while they may have input from assets passing enemy positions and targeting information(via the new VLF station), their ability to catch and attack the enemy is a more dependent upon preplanning.

However, generally during the period building up to hostilities submarines will tend to deploy into enemy waters and observe their movements.

This happened in 2001 and 2008 when the 90b ventured out farther and did some interesting things(for our region anyway)

So type 54's is a step in the right direction, What i am still failed to understand that why PN hasn't put a FL-3000 RAM on F-22 for Point Defense instead they add 2 CIWS ?
What do you think would be role of our extensively large Submarine Fleet ? i mean there must be a reason we just invested close to 5b$ in buying 8 Subs ..
does IN has Net Centric Warfare Capability ?

well so far Ada is rumor so yeah but i personally bet my 2 cents that Turkey will manage to sell ADA and T-129's to Pakistan after they reach onto some Financial Agreements .

by Surveillance screen you mean AWAC's right ?

Ask the PN or write in a paper, I am as stumped as you are regarding the point of the F-22Ps when they are really still very vunerable.

 

[YeBeWarned]

This happened in 2001 and 2008 when the 90b ventured out farther and did some interesting things(for our region anyway)

Wild guess, our 90B ventured close to Vishakapatnam and say hello to the Indians
Please share if its not Classified

Ask the PN or write in a paper, I am as stumped as you are regarding the point of the F-22Ps when they are really still very vunerable.

Sir, What good Words of a Civilian like me will do when they are not listening to experts
but i am hopeful that Future Procurement of PN will give them a much needed boost in their surface fleet, and tbh other than staying positive what else we can do?

 

[shootingstar]

Sir how effective do you reckon the submarines would be as anti ship attack assets ?

Subs are one area where Pakistan is far superior to India. Pakistani subs are equipped with AIP and would deliver a death blow to Indian surface fleet. On the other hand India is still operating vintage 209s and Kilos while the newer Scorpenes have already been compromised. On top of that India screwed up big time by cancelling the planned procurement of the S-70Bs and Minesweepers.

Modi could be rated as the worst Indian PM when it comes to securing Indian defense interests.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Turkish programs exist but currently are too many and too dependent on funding to proceed beyond the intitial concepts. Many have been tested but then the price point exceeds what Pakistan can afford; at the end, the Quran is clear that money matters even with the closest should be recorded and the inference to that is not to be lenient with finances.
So simply Turkey has only soo much incentive to go out of the way for Pakistan.

Yes, finances are dead important, but there's another thing called Kardeshlik Kural (law of brotherhood)!!! During the darkest hour of Turkey under occupation, the Sultan asked for Dua from the Muslims of the sub-continent, but they (themselves being a British colony) responded with also Deva!!! I am prey sure where there's a will there's a way....

 

[ghauri05]

Yes, all of them will be

The Brahmos can be killed or avoided as unlike a subsonic missile it cannot reengage effectively after a miss.
However, the problem is that enmasse launches(much like the soviets planned in the 80’s) will overwhelm even AEGIS equipped air Defence destroyers in CVBG, let alone a rag tag flotilla like the PN.
One way the USN planned to tackle AShMs was the F-14. Basically engaging enemy threats at long range.

So the MKIs I mentioned here could be kept at bay using extended combat air patrols and ZDK-03s surveillance(the systems air&sea detection performance is quite good). That would require deployment of F-16s at Masroor since the JF-17 may not have the endurance with payload at range without refuelling.

Basically, the semi-selfishness present in all arms has left Pakistani coastlines very vulnerable.. and this is to a realistically bumbling Indian military structure which too has itself in a mess due to inter service rivalry and idiotic purchasing and maintenance patterns.

Well, I was just thinking the other day....what should PN look like..in my opinion..PN should have huge number of small fast attack boats/ mini ships will be better term..carrying 6-8 anit-ship missiles like they are now..but also carrying 2-4 anti-sub torpedoes under it's bally...if we can come up with such a system which has radars or sonars say range of 30-50km(being very conservative here..i actually don't know the range of radar/sonar on such small boats)...we can build them in huge numbers and cover all the EEZ with them...for air defense we..should use dedicated frigates which provide all short-medium-long range air cover...we can have let's say 5-6 such of these cover our area...and finally we should focus on destroyers to give the offensive punch to PN

And of course naval air wing is a must..we need to increase number of air bases along the coast line...I have read here many times that 2 squadrons will be enough for PN..but I think PN should go for 4..with the mix of Jf-17 and some heavy platform if we are able to..so we can maintain a defensive as well as offensive posture....And we can do all that with our limited resources over the time period of 10-15 years...if we plan and start from now.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

There is a serious misunderstanding around CM-400 AKG due to its paper speed.CM-400AKG is not really a true ship killer.It has no maneuvering ability,has only hi-lo dive approach which is detected on AESA radar masts hundreds of kilometres away because majority of their flight path is high in the radar and not under radar screen cover like sea skimmers.Because they can't maneuvre their speed doesn't matter as much because they are coming towards the ship and ship's missile will not chase them,only reaction time is slower but that is cancelled out by early detection due to flight path.It has no sea skimming ability.Missiels like these have been in use with USSR since 1960s.This is the main reason the actual manufacturers the chinese don't use them - they use subsonic and supersonic sea skimmers.

Subsonic missiles have advantage of low cost,can maneuvre,range and avoiding detection by sea skimming.Weakness is though detected late,once detected they are easy to shoot down and can also be gunned down by CIWS.

Brahmos/Oniks main advantage is they have at once good range,sea skimming flight path throughout to avoid radar detection,and supersonic speed to give no reaction to defenses once detected.CIWS are generally useless against supersonic missiles in sea skimming mode.Main drawback is cost and weight.

The way to counter brahmos like missiles is a combination of AESA radar masts on ships,early warning aircraft and layered defence of new generation active warhead interceptor missiles designed specifically for the role - european aster 15/30 combo,barak 8 (multipurpose) or american SM/RAM combo and fielded in numbers to survive saturation attacks.

PN surface fleet needs a couple of air defence ships.European FREMM class frigates with aster are a good choice.Or maybe chinese option - cheaper but not that advanced.

 

[SipahSalar]

Neither does being mentioned in the record mean anything. After all the J-10 got into soo many books,magazines and statements yet I still don’t see one.

Show me which records mentioned that Pakistan inducted the J-10s. Sales fall apart all the time just like your logic.

 

[Safriz]

There is a serious misunderstanding around CM-400 AKG due to its paper speed.CM-400AKG is not really a true ship killer.It has no maneuvering ability,has only hi-lo dive approach which is detected on AESA radar masts hundreds of kilometres away because majority of their flight path is high in the radar and not under radar screen cover like sea skimmers.Because they can't maneuvre their speed doesn't matter as much because they are coming towards the ship and ship's missile will not chase them,only reaction time is slower but that is cancelled out by early detection due to flight path.It has no sea skimming ability.Missiels like these have been in use with USSR since 1960s.This is the main reason the actual manufacturers the chinese don't use them - they use subsonic and supersonic sea skimmers.

Subsonic missiles have advantage of low cost,can maneuvre,range and avoiding detection by sea skimming.Weakness is though detected late,once detected they are easy to shoot down and can also be gunned down by CIWS.

Brahmos/Oniks main advantage is they have at once good range,sea skimming flight path throughout to avoid radar detection,and supersonic speed to give no reaction to defenses once detected.CIWS are generally useless against supersonic missiles in sea skimming mode.Main drawback is cost and weight.

The way to counter brahmos like missiles is a combination of AESA radar masts on ships,early warning aircraft and layered defence of new generation active warhead interceptor missiles designed specifically for the role - european aster 15/30 combo,barak 8 (multipurpose) or american SM/RAM combo and fielded in numbers to survive saturation attacks.

PN surface fleet needs a couple of air defence ships.European FREMM class frigates with aster are a good choice.Or maybe chinese option - cheaper but not that advanced.

There is a serious misunderstanding around CM-400 AKG due to its paper speed.CM-400AKG is not really a true ship killer.It has no maneuvering ability,has only hi-lo dive approach which is detected on AESA radar masts hundreds of kilometres away because majority of their flight path is high in the radar and not under radar screen cover like sea skimmers.Because they can't maneuvre their speed doesn't matter as much because they are coming towards the ship and ship's missile will not chase them,only reaction time is slower but that is cancelled out by early detection due to flight path.It has no sea skimming ability.Missiels like these have been in use with USSR since 1960s.This is the main reason the actual manufacturers the chinese don't use them - they use subsonic and supersonic sea skimmers.

Subsonic missiles have advantage of low cost,can maneuvre,range and avoiding detection by sea skimming.Weakness is though detected late,once detected they are easy to shoot down and can also be gunned down by CIWS.

Brahmos/Oniks main advantage is they have at once good range,sea skimming flight path throughout to avoid radar detection,and supersonic speed to give no reaction to defenses once detected.CIWS are generally useless against supersonic missiles in sea skimming mode.Main drawback is cost and weight.

The way to counter brahmos like missiles is a combination of AESA radar masts on ships,early warning aircraft and layered defence of new generation active warhead interceptor missiles designed specifically for the role - european aster 15/30 combo,barak 8 (multipurpose) or american SM/RAM combo and fielded in numbers to survive saturation attacks.

PN surface fleet needs a couple of air defence ships.European FREMM class frigates with aster are a good choice.Or maybe chinese option - cheaper but not that advanced.

Read this.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dubai-china-details-performance-of-carrier-killer-393301/

 

[SipahSalar]

There is a serious misunderstanding around CM-400 AKG due to its paper speed.CM-400AKG is not really a true ship killer.It has no maneuvering ability,has only hi-lo dive approach which is detected on AESA radar masts hundreds of kilometres away because majority of their flight path is high in the radar and not under radar screen cover like sea skimmers.Because they can't maneuvre their speed doesn't matter as much because they are coming towards the ship and ship's missile will not chase them,only reaction time is slower but that is cancelled out by early detection due to flight path.It has no sea skimming ability.Missiels like these have been in use with USSR since 1960s.This is the main reason the actual manufacturers the chinese don't use them - they use subsonic and supersonic sea skimmers.

Subsonic missiles have advantage of low cost,can maneuvre,range and avoiding detection by sea skimming.Weakness is though detected late,once detected they are easy to shoot down and can also be gunned down by CIWS.

Brahmos/Oniks main advantage is they have at once good range,sea skimming flight path throughout to avoid radar detection,and supersonic speed to give no reaction to defenses once detected.CIWS are generally useless against supersonic missiles in sea skimming mode.Main drawback is cost and weight.

The way to counter brahmos like missiles is a combination of AESA radar masts on ships,early warning aircraft and layered defence of new generation active warhead interceptor missiles designed specifically for the role - european aster 15/30 combo,barak 8 (multipurpose) or american SM/RAM combo and fielded in numbers to survive saturation attacks.

PN surface fleet needs a couple of air defence ships.European FREMM class frigates with aster are a good choice.Or maybe chinese option - cheaper but not that advanced.

The fact is, even if detected, stopping a Mach 4 missile is no joke. Especially when you are under a swarm attack of such missiles. How many can you stop? One? Two? Three?

I don't think India has demonstrated the capability to stop missiles at such speeds even with Barak 8.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The fact is, even if detected, stopping a Mach 4 missile is no joke. Especially when you are under a swarm attack of such missiles. How many can you stop? One? Two? Three?

I don't think India has demonstrated the capability to stop missiles at such speeds even with Barak 8.

The missile doesn't maneuver and its speed is not so much a factor because - 1.You will detect it a 100 miles out due to high trajectory like a plane 2.interceptor is head on ..not in tail chase making speed not a factor as such once recation time is not considered due to early detection.

Read this.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/dubai-china-details-performance-of-carrier-killer-393301/

Basically stating its fast and accurate.But stating none of the vital flaws - no maneuver,high lo profile only with no sea skimming.They are again advertising something they themselves won't use.PLAN itself uses supersonic sea skimmers ,and older subsonics for cheap support.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Need to act , less of bold statement and more of actual purchase , such as the Turkish Frigate/Corvette deal

 

[Joe Shearer]

One of the most fascinating threads I've read for a long time.

All sorts of amateur speculation floating around, and then the unforgettable sight of Internet warriors taking on veterans of the defence supporting industry.

Good going.

 

[Safriz]

The missile doesn't maneuver and its speed is not so much a factor because - 1.You will detect it a 100 miles out due to high trajectory like a plane 2.interceptor is head on ..not in tail chase making speed not a factor as such once recation time is not considered due to early detection.



Basically stating its fast and accurate.But stating none of the vital flaws - no maneuver,high lo profile only with no sea skimming.They are again advertising something they themselves won't use.PLAN itself uses supersonic sea skimmers ,and older subsonics for cheap support.

CM-400AKG is an air launched quasi ballistic missile with a solid fuel rocket which can stop start.
The engine gives about three sustained bursts of thrust. First just after launch at 25000+ feet, where the rocket heads upwards and levels out at about 50,000 feet and glides un-powered. Then second Burst mid flight to maintain glide speed of Mach 2-3. Last burst of thrust comes at terminal phase when the missile has pointed downwards an heads towards the target. Seeker acquired the target and rear small wings provide maneuverability. Last thrust and gravity together give the impact velocity of about Mach 5 .
The speed alone causes damage of a shaped charge hitting the ship with 200Kg explosives.
Since there is Maneuverability but very limited capability to do so, the Missile is advertised for "Large Slow moving targets" i.e. Air craft carriers and large ship,not small destroyers and missile boats.

 

[Arsalan 345]

pakistan navy is in pathetic situation.

 

[$@rJen]

CM-400AKG is an air launched quasi ballistic missile with a solid fuel rocket which can stop start.
The engine gives about three sustained bursts of thrust. First just after launch at 25000+ feet, where the rocket heads upwards and levels out at about 50,000 feet and glides un-powered. Then second Burst mid flight to maintain glide speed of Mach 2-3. Last burst of thrust comes at terminal phase when the missile has pointed downwards an heads towards the target. Seeker acquired the target and rear small wings provide maneuverability. Last thrust and gravity together give the impact velocity of about Mach 5 .
The speed alone causes damage of a shaped charge hitting the ship with 200Kg explosives.
Since there is Maneuverability but very limited capability to do so, the Missile is advertised for "Large Slow moving targets" i.e. Air craft carriers and large ship,not small destroyers and missile boats.

Aircraft carrier is slow moving?? do you know how many numbers of defenses a jet or ship have to break before getting anywhere near thst target?