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Pakistan Naval Aviation - Updated

Exercise Barracuda-X Organized by Pakistan Maritime Security Agency

Post Thu Dec 05, 2019



Multi-national Exercise Barracuda-X - an oil spill control and anti-piracy - organized by Pakistan Maritime Security Agency (PMSA). The exercise was held from December 2 to December 4 in Arabian Sea near Karachi.

Air and surface assets of the PMSA, Pakistan Navy, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) and others participated in the sea phase of the exercise.



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Sir history reveals many bitter truth of past in Operation Trident Pak faced unbearable damage simply due to lack of technology and superiority of enemy. Meanwhile PAF and PA performed relatively well despite 1971 separation of one part of the country.

I am quite agreed that due to defensive doctrine and limited aims PN does not need separate air arm however it do needs full air cover especially considering the fact that even in near future the PN ships at best shall have medium range SAMs i.e up to 70 Km range if HQ16 latest version considered otherwise it shall be up to only 40-50 KM at max.
We have to induct a true heavy multi role fighter in addition to JF17, at least to provide sufficient air cover to our naval assets from threats posed by Mig 29Ks and SU30.
By the next decade...all the assets in the pipeline for the surface fleet(Type 054, Milgem, etc.) would be fully operational along with the subs(upgraded 3 Agosta90s and the 8 Chinese ones). The subs(armed with torpedoes and SLCM such as Babur and potentially even the supersonic cruise missiles under development) and coastal batteries will form a formidable A2AD zone in Pak waters. All that's needed is the rumored J15(modified to take off from land)...a squadron or two of those(with support assets such as AWACS, MPAs, etc.) and IN would find it really hard to establish superiority over PN and impose a blockade.
I've been reading alot on this forum about people wanting PN to boost its air arm which is good on paper but the reality is what matters is about having assets that can make a difference in time of war.

Must understand PN primary role is to prevent a naval blockade of Pakistani shipping lanes. Indian navy's primary role is force projection and blockade of supplies to Pakistan. Both are different.

PN has a different strategy and relies primarily on it's submarine force for the offensive punch. These submarines ensure if India moves its Navy towards Pakistan, yes they can inflict damage to PN but they will risk heavy losses on their side as well.

Both Indian and Pakistani air assets with anti ship capability are shore based which can be knocked out by surprise or a missile strike. Indian jets cannot takeoff from aircraft carriers armed with Anti Ship missiles. So in both cases these are defending assets against a aggressor force. Also while aircraft have limited loiter time submarines can remain in the theater for months, making your enemy think very hard before risking a advance.

In case of war assets that would go offensive into Indian waters would be PN submarines, these are being added in good number and cannot be harmed by Brahmos/SU-30s/Mig-29Ks. Recent skirmish has shown even our unupgraded Agosta managed to stay undetected by Indian Navy for almost a month despite their latest P-8s working round the clock. Rest of PN assets would be on defence inside international or Pakistani waters preventing a naval blockade and countering Indian submarines which PN has displayed it can catch time and again.

It won't be a walk in the park for either side. Naval air power is important but in case of Pakistan it is not that much of a deciding factor as being hyped, PN should and is concentrating on a mix of assets that suites it's need.
No doubt submarines take the cake when it comes to A2AD, stealth(some of the hardest assets for enemy to find), and lethality(primarily due to their stealth)...but one must not underestimate the power of an air arm for the Navy. Yes of course in terms of priority...submarines and surface fleet would be boosted first while the naval air arm takes a back seat. But as we have seen in the recent past PN has done just that. Orders after orders were placed to procure surface fleet assets and current submarines are being upgraded with another 8 on order. Coastal batteries are already in place, Pak has enough AWACS(10 I believe) and enough MPAs(P3C Orion and ATR)...
...adequate progress has been made in this regard...next up the focus should be towards building a potent air arm. JF17s armed with antiship cruise missiles(C802 or CM400 AKG) is a considerable threat for IN surface fleet. There's also rumored interest of PN in acquiring J15(without carrier specific modifications). A squadron of J15s with a squadron of JF17s in antiship role would be a significant threat to IN surface fleet if it tries to get near Pak waters.
 
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By the next decade...all the assets in the pipeline for the surface fleet(Type 054, Milgem, etc.) would be fully operational along with the subs(upgraded 3 Agosta90s and the 8 Chinese ones). The subs(armed with torpedoes and SLCM such as Babur and potentially even the supersonic cruise missiles under development) and coastal batteries will form a formidable A2AD zone in Pak waters. All that's needed is the rumored J15(modified to take off from land)...a squadron or two of those(with support assets such as AWACS, MPAs, etc.) and IN would find it really hard to establish superiority over PN and impose a blockade.

No doubt submarines take the cake when it comes to A2AD, stealth(some of the hardest assets for enemy to find), and lethality(primarily due to their stealth)...but one must not underestimate the power of an air arm for the Navy. Yes of course in terms of priority...submarines and surface fleet would be boosted first while the naval air arm takes a back seat. But as we have seen in the recent past PN has done just that. Orders after orders were placed to procure surface fleet assets and current submarines are being upgraded with another 8 on order. Coastal batteries are already in place, Pak has enough AWACS(10 I believe) and enough MPAs(P3C Orion and ATR)...
...adequate progress has been made in this regard...next up the focus should be towards building a potent air arm. JF17s armed with antiship cruise missiles(C802 or CM400 AKG) is a considerable threat for IN surface fleet. There's also rumored interest of PN in acquiring J15(without carrier specific modifications). A squadron of J15s with a squadron of JF17s in antiship role would be a significant threat to IN surface fleet if it tries to get near Pak waters.

Because of sophisticated anti air defence systems any anti ship attack from air would have to be a saturated one where number of missiles overwhelm the enemy's defences for this type of scenario would rather think instead of a fighter jet my opinion is PN is better off choosing a missile truck like the P-3C which could carry Chinese or local developed anti ship missiles. JF-17s or F-16s (PAF bolari based) could provide air cover for it through AWACs coordination.
Yes J-16 (instead of J-15) is good too but only once we have P-3C replacement sorted. J-16 because it can carry YJ-12 series supersonic missiles and has EW capability. J-16 would be a good strike addition to PAF too.
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FYI second picture P-3C is armed with wingtip sidewinders to take out opponent Maritime patrol craft it might encounter.
 
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Because of sophisticated anti air defence systems any anti ship attack from air would have to be a saturated one where number of missiles overwhelm the enemy's defences for this type of scenario would rather think instead of a fighter jet my opinion is PN is better off choosing a missile truck like the P-3C which could carry Chinese or local developed anti ship missiles. JF-17s or F-16s (PAF bolari based) could provide air cover for it through AWACs coordination.
Yes J-16 (instead of J-15) is good too but only once we have P-3C replacement sorted. J-16 because it can carry YJ-12 series supersonic missiles and has EW capability. J-16 would be a good strike addition to PAF too.
P-7A-LRAACA-S.jpg

orion11.jpg

FYI second picture P-3C is armed with wingtip sidewinders to take out opponent Maritime patrol craft it might encounter.
I agree that it would have to be a saturation type of attack in order to overcome the defenses but I don't think P3(or similar Chinese platform) would be the ideal solution. No naval air arm in the world uses P3(or the likes) of jets as the tip of the spear to carry out aerial attacks against surface vessels. One of the biggest reasons I assume is that a surface vessel in general is equipped to carry out anti air attacks(in order to defend itself). Assets like P3 present a huge target on their radars and are much too slow...most of all they are too valuable(as MPAs). Indeed they have the capability to serve as missile trucks...but that has more to do with increasing their utility and versatility rather than pitting them against enemy surface fleet. Generally airforces and naval air arms keep their support assets(AWACS, MPAs, tankers, dedicated EW aircrafts like Dassault Falcon, etc.) in the back...under SAM cover and air cover provided by fighter jets...so it's harder for the enemy to get to them. The only time where we see P3 taking a more aggressive approach as opposed to being support is during antisubmarine warfare...and that is bcuz submarines generally don't have much anti air capability. Even if they did...it would require them to surface and have their radar turned on to acquire and engage aerial targets...which defeats the whole purpose of a submarine giving away it's stealth.

Bcuz of the above discussed immense value of MPA aircraft...instead we can look at bombers...which can serve that same purpose of being missile trucks. Here too I would like to point out that bombers(in any air force or naval air arm) generally come in to play after air superiorty is established bcuz they too generally are too vulnerable(talking about conventional bombers and not flankers and the likes). The best option for an aircraft that can serve as a missile truck...would still be J15(or J16 as u suggested or any twin engine fighter jet with lots of hard points). These types of aircrafts also present a huge RCS(this was recently shown to be a big drawback when IAF Su30s ended up dodging AMRAAMS) but unlike conventional bombers they can launch antiship missiles(like YJ12) at stand off ranges, turn around and full on after burner out of there. Another strategy to maximize the ability to get near enemy surface vessels as talked about before many times would be to fly low(Mastan Khan has discussed many times JH7 as a missile truck with its ability to fly low)...with that using the Earth's curvature to ur advantage...one can get around the enemy ship's advantage in radar range. Besides J15(or J16) are multirole and can be used to engage enemy fighter jets as well. Bombers on the other hand would be limited until air superiorty is established.

The reason why I mentioned J15 and not J16 is bcuz there was a rumor(by Khafee) that Pak was looking into it. J15 too should be able to carry YJ12 just like J16(it probably wasn't integrated bcuz the Chinese J15 has to take off from a carrier which would be hard to do with heavy loads of YJ12 hanging from it)...Pak was interested in J15(with modifications that would make it a land based variant) in that case carrying YJ12 shouldn't be a problem. Additionally I mentioned JF17 in anti ship role along with J15...that was mainly due to costs. J15 would cost way more to acquire and operate per jet as opposed to JF17...JF17 can carry two CM400AKG. So as a cost saving measure...JF17s can augment J15s.
 
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Because of sophisticated anti air defence systems any anti ship attack from air would have to be a saturated one where number of missiles overwhelm the enemy's defences for this type of scenario would rather think instead of a fighter jet my opinion is PN is better off choosing a missile truck like the P-3C which could carry Chinese or local developed anti ship missiles. JF-17s or F-16s (PAF bolari based) could provide air cover for it through AWACs coordination.
Yes J-16 (instead of J-15) is good too but only once we have P-3C replacement sorted. J-16 because it can carry YJ-12 series supersonic missiles and has EW capability. J-16 would be a good strike addition to PAF too.
P-7A-LRAACA-S.jpg

orion11.jpg

FYI second picture P-3C is armed with wingtip sidewinders to take out opponent Maritime patrol craft it might encounter.


I think those are torpedoes and not sidewinders :)

I agree that it would have to be a saturation type of attack in order to overcome the defenses but I don't think P3(or similar Chinese platform) would be the ideal solution. No naval air arm in the world uses P3(or the likes) of jets as the tip of the spear to carry out aerial attacks against surface vessels. One of the biggest reasons I assume is that a surface vessel in general is equipped to carry out anti air attacks(in order to defend itself). Assets like P3 present a huge target on their radars and are much too slow...most of all they are too valuable(as MPAs). Indeed they have the capability to serve as missile trucks...but that has more to do with increasing their utility and versatility rather than pitting them against enemy surface fleet. Generally airforces and naval air arms keep their support assets(AWACS, MPAs, tankers, dedicated EW aircrafts like Dassault Falcon, etc.) in the back...under SAM cover and air cover provided by fighter jets...so it's harder for the enemy to get to them. The only time where we see P3 taking a more aggressive approach as opposed to being support is during antisubmarine warfare...and that is bcuz submarines generally don't have much anti air capability. Even if they did...it would require them to surface and have their radar turned on to acquire and engage aerial targets...which defeats the whole purpose of a submarine giving away it's stealth.

Bcuz of the above discussed immense value of MPA aircraft...instead we can look at bombers...which can serve that same purpose of being missile trucks. Here too I would like to point out that bombers(in any air force or naval air arm) generally come in to play after air superiorty is established bcuz they too generally are too vulnerable(talking about conventional bombers and not flankers and the likes). The best option for an aircraft that can serve as a missile truck...would still be J15(or J16 as u suggested or any twin engine fighter jet with lots of hard points). These types of aircrafts also present a huge RCS(this was recently shown to be a big drawback when IAF Su30s ended up dodging AMRAAMS) but unlike conventional bombers they can launch antiship missiles(like YJ12) at stand off ranges, turn around and full on after burner out of there. Another strategy to maximize the ability to get near enemy surface vessels as talked about before many times would be to fly low(Mastan Khan has discussed many times JH7 as a missile truck with its ability to fly low)...with that using the Earth's curvature to ur advantage...one can get around the enemy ship's advantage in radar range. Besides J15(or J16) are multirole and can be used to engage enemy fighter jets as well. Bombers on the other hand would be limited until air superiorty is established.

The reason why I mentioned J15 and not J16 is bcuz there was a rumor(by Khafee) that Pak was looking into it. J15 too should be able to carry YJ12 just like J16(it probably wasn't integrated bcuz the Chinese J15 has to take off from a carrier which would be hard to do with heavy loads of YJ12 hanging from it)...Pak was interested in J15(with modifications that would make it a land based variant) in that case carrying YJ12 shouldn't be a problem. Additionally I mentioned JF17 in anti ship role along with J15...that was mainly due to costs. J15 would cost way more to acquire and operate per jet as opposed to JF17...JF17 can carry two CM400AKG. So as a cost saving measure...JF17s can augment J15s.

And that is exactly why Pakistan naval aviation works in close conjunction with Pakistan air Force. Furthermore the air superiority fighters don't have the required sensors onboard to fight in a cluttered radar environment.
 
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I agree that it would have to be a saturation type of attack in order to overcome the defenses but I don't think P3(or similar Chinese platform) would be the ideal solution. No naval air arm in the world uses P3(or the likes) of jets as the tip of the spear to carry out aerial attacks against surface vessels. One of the biggest reasons I assume is that a surface vessel in general is equipped to carry out anti air attacks(in order to defend itself). Assets like P3 present a huge target on their radars and are much too slow...most of all they are too valuable(as MPAs). Indeed they have the capability to serve as missile trucks...but that has more to do with increasing their utility and versatility rather than pitting them against enemy surface fleet. Generally airforces and naval air arms keep their support assets(AWACS, MPAs, tankers, dedicated EW aircrafts like Dassault Falcon, etc.) in the back...under SAM cover and air cover provided by fighter jets...so it's harder for the enemy to get to them. The only time where we see P3 taking a more aggressive approach as opposed to being support is during antisubmarine warfare...and that is bcuz submarines generally don't have much anti air capability. Even if they did...it would require them to surface and have their radar turned on to acquire and engage aerial targets...which defeats the whole purpose of a submarine giving away it's stealth.

Bcuz of the above discussed immense value of MPA aircraft...instead we can look at bombers...which can serve that same purpose of being missile trucks. Here too I would like to point out that bombers(in any air force or naval air arm) generally come in to play after air superiorty is established bcuz they too generally are too vulnerable(talking about conventional bombers and not flankers and the likes). The best option for an aircraft that can serve as a missile truck...would still be J15(or J16 as u suggested or any twin engine fighter jet with lots of hard points). These types of aircrafts also present a huge RCS(this was recently shown to be a big drawback when IAF Su30s ended up dodging AMRAAMS) but unlike conventional bombers they can launch antiship missiles(like YJ12) at stand off ranges, turn around and full on after burner out of there. Another strategy to maximize the ability to get near enemy surface vessels as talked about before many times would be to fly low(Mastan Khan has discussed many times JH7 as a missile truck with its ability to fly low)...with that using the Earth's curvature to ur advantage...one can get around the enemy ship's advantage in radar range. Besides J15(or J16) are multirole and can be used to engage enemy fighter jets as well. Bombers on the other hand would be limited until air superiorty is established.

The reason why I mentioned J15 and not J16 is bcuz there was a rumor(by Khafee) that Pak was looking into it. J15 too should be able to carry YJ12 just like J16(it probably wasn't integrated bcuz the Chinese J15 has to take off from a carrier which would be hard to do with heavy loads of YJ12 hanging from it)...Pak was interested in J15(with modifications that would make it a land based variant) in that case carrying YJ12 shouldn't be a problem. Additionally I mentioned JF17 in anti ship role along with J15...that was mainly due to costs. J15 would cost way more to acquire and operate per jet as opposed to JF17...JF17 can carry two CM400AKG. So as a cost saving measure...JF17s can augment J15s.

Sir no navy can totally overcome threats untill and unless the opposition is naive enough, however in case of Indo Pak scenario even the assets with lesser capabilities can be more effective, i.e If PN adopts path of Iran as we cannot afford to have surface assets on one to one basis, then even if PN is able to get and deploy stealth FACs with speeds 45+ Knots and ASHMS can pose serious threat to IN surface and naval assets.

However for time being we should focus on present position and it is quite evident that both PA and PN lack in long range/high altitude SAMs. Pak should address this issue first to minimize losses in case of any near future conflict.
 
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No doubt submarines take the cake when it comes to A2AD, stealth(some of the hardest assets for enemy to find), and lethality(primarily due to their stealth)...but one must not underestimate the power of an air arm for the Navy. Yes of course in terms of priority...submarines and surface fleet would be boosted first while the naval air arm takes a back seat. But as we have seen in the recent past PN has done just that. Orders after orders were placed to procure surface fleet assets and current submarines are being upgraded with another 8 on order. Coastal batteries are already in place, Pak has enough AWACS(10 I believe) and enough MPAs(P3C Orion and ATR)...
P3Cs have become old and need to be replaced. We need LRMPAs to counter the submarines otherwise the Indian subs can take out our Surface fleets

J15 would cost way more to acquire and operate per jet as opposed to JF17...JF17 can carry two CM400AKG. So as a cost saving measure...JF17s can augment J15s.
Would Thunder have the range? It would need range in sea and by having 2 CM 400AKG, you wont be having Fuel Tanks
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Sir no navy can totally overcome threats untill and unless the opposition is naive enough, however in case of Indo Pak scenario even the assets with lesser capabilities can be more effective, i.e If PN adopts path of Iran as we cannot afford to have surface assets on one to one basis, then even if PN is able to get and deploy stealth FACs with speeds 45+ Knots and ASHMS can pose serious threat to IN surface and naval assets.

However for time being we should focus on present position and it is quite evident that both PA and PN lack in long range/high altitude SAMs. Pak should address this issue first to minimize losses in case of any near future conflict.
Of course LRSAMs are also needed...it's up to Pak armed forces...they know better what to prioritize based on the threats Pak is facing.

As for Iran's strategy of having large numbers of fast attack crafts armed with antiship missiles...I'm not going to say whether it is a good strategy or bad strategy...I would just say that to my knowledge it is untested in practice. Antiship missiles are deadly...but in order to launch and guide them towards a target, u must first acquire a target on radar. This makes FAC ill equipped if they go up against an IN frigate for example(or any other relatively large sized ship with a more powerful radar). The enemy ship will see first and shoot first and the FAC will be taken out before it even sees a target.

However in modern warfare it seems very unlikely that a FAC will be operating like that...it is more likely that it will be operating with many other systems in the theatre. In that case the targeting information can be provided by some other asset(a drone, P3C, etc.) and the FAC can fire its antiship missile, which can be guided(by the radar which is tracking it) using datalink...until the missile's own target acquisition method can take over. In that case...the FAC just ends up serving as a launch platform and doesn't offer much other than that.

I'm not trying to belittle FACs...they have their role to play but I don't think building them in huge numbers would offer much of an advantage against a huge properly equipped Navy like the IN. Moreover I haven't seen/read about a battle where this strategy was successfully implemented and yielded advantageous results. I have read about US war gaming against such swarming tactics...which worked in that Red vs Blue scenario to a great effect but it also involved "suicide attacks" along with conventional attacks by the small boats. Here are some details about that war gaming exercise below.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Challenge_2002

Bcuz Pak has limited resources...it's a safer bet to invest in tried and true methods. That is having a capable surface fleet...which doesn't have to be matched one to one...just enough to support other assets in the battlefield and pack enough of an offensive punch while fighting defensively(for the most part). The second aspect that would help in this defensive strategy while not having to match IN on a one to one basis would be A2AD...which will mainly be done by submarines and to a lesser extent coastal defenses. Last but not least would be air support(MPAs, jammers, fighter jets, drones, etc). These 3 things working together will effectively nullify IN's numerical advantage.

P3Cs have become old and need to be replaced. We need LRMPAs to counter the submarines otherwise the Indian subs can take out our Surface fleets
P3C has long enough range to defend Pak waters against enemy submarines. It may be old but is still very capable. Though Pak is looking to replace them I don't think Pak can replace all the P3C rn. So it's probably going to be around a while.
Would Thunder have the range? It would need range in sea and by having 2 CM 400AKG, you wont be having Fuel Tanks
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Just bcuz u don't see a drop tank in these pics doesn't mean JF17 can't carry it while carrying CM400 AKG. I don't think JF17 would have any problem carrying a centerline drop tank with those CM400 AKG missiles...in terms of MTOW(unless it's due to dimensions of the drop tank and CM400). With a centerline drop tank and in air refueling...it should be able to cover Pak's territorial waters to counter enemy fighter jets or in antiship role.
 
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Air to Air refueling is the simple answer for JF17

With one centerline drop tank it’s will have range, I was told it still beats mirage due to better fuel efficient turbofan engine vs fuel guzzler turbojet of mirages
 
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P3Cs have become old and need to be replaced. We need LRMPAs to counter the submarines otherwise the Indian subs can take out our Surface fleets


Would Thunder have the range? It would need range in sea and by having 2 CM 400AKG, you wont be having Fuel Tanks
View attachment 604336 View attachment 604337
Are you Indian? I think you are a faker. No need to replace P3Cs. A number of developed countries still use them.
 
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I need a list of latest numbers of PN Naval Aviation assets. How many ATR's? How Many P3C's? How Many Sea Kings? How Many Z9EC's? etc
 
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