Pakistan Naval Aviation - Updated

[PAR 5]

It'll never happen, but I do like the Kawasaki P1.

Lets talk again in 24 months or so

 

[mingle]

Interesting discussions and speculative assessments on future of PN MPA. However reality is a tad different to what everyone is saying here. All I can divulge at this stage is that PN has already begun the process for a new MPA. But now is not the time to say more. But interesting thread and I’ll keep any eye on it.

Just give us hint??? Not Swedes I believe not yanks but who knows American are generous ppl can open door anytime

It'll never happen, but I do like the Kawasaki P1.

Bilal what will be price?? Kawasaki P1 and P8 let's see.

 

[syed_yusuf]

is there a jet base chinese option

 

[mingle]

is there a jet base chinese option

I doubt

 

[Dazzler]

is there a jet base chinese option

In future perhaps, not at the moment. Y8 Q is the platform that is being developed/ tested.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Just give us hint??? Not Swedes I believe not yanks but who knows American are generous ppl can open door anytime


Bilal what will be price?? Kawasaki P1 and P8 let's see.

I doubt a Kawasaki P1 would come for anything less than $300 m per plane (including logistics, training, support or maintenance package, and maybe torpedoes/missiles). I think $350 m US per plane would be realistic (considering the R&D overhead and lack of economies-of-scale vs. the P-8).

 

[Michel Niesten]

I don’t know the exact cost per plane, but it seems the unit price of a P-1 is about half of the P-8. The P-1 was also offered to some European countries, with some possible cooperation with Airbus, which has no long range Maritime Patrol in their portfolio.

 

[Shabi1]

Actually the chinese have a good option for replacing P-3C except its a turboprop which frankly is more economical. The Y-8Q aka Y-8GX6. The name is a bit misleading as it is actually on a Y-9 platform but it has a powerful AESA radar, a modern acoustics suite, the largest MAD in the world, can carry over 100 Sonobuey, and 6-8 heavy torpedos or C-802 AShM.

Yes that is the best option in my opinion as well but PN officials want a jet.

Difference is Turboprop more efficient at lower speeds lower altitude while Turbojet gets more efficient at higher altitude and higher speeds.

 

[Falcon26]

Pakistan has better chances of getting the F-22 than the P-1. Japan will never do anything to jeopardize relations with India which it sees as a bulwark against China. Pakistan’s engagement with japan will be limited to used Suzukis. Don’t even bother that direction.

 

[fatman17]

South Asia In South Asia, the key players in the MSF realm are India and Pakistan. The Indian Naval Air Arm operates the carrierborne MiG-29K Fulcrum-D, whose primary anti-ship weapon is the Russian Kh-35U Uran, but maritime strike roles are also shared with the Indian Air Force, which has a dedicated anti-ship squadron of Jaguar-IMs. There is no prospect of the Indian Naval Air Arm taking on sole responsibility of anti-shipping strikes. The Indian Air Force is keen to preserve this capability, having acquired 22 AGM-84L Harpoon Block-II anti-ship cruise missiles for the Jaguar-IM and test-fired it in May 2015. The Air Force’s upgraded MiG-29UPG also features the Kh-35U. The service’s Sukhoi Su-30MKI test-fired an air-launched variant of the BrahMos – the sole supersonic anti-ship cruise missile indigenous to South Asia – in November 2017 and is tipped to gradually integrate the missile with the Sukhois.
Unlike its Indian rival, the Pakistan Naval Aviation has no dedicated MSF component, which is found with the Air Force operating the Mirage-5PA3 armed with the AM-39 Exocet, a venerable but aging design like the fighter itself. The Pakistan Air Force has since acquired the JF-17 Thunder, a multirole fighter equipped with the more capable Chinese-origin C-802A.

 

[mingle]

South Asia In South Asia, the key players in the MSF realm are India and Pakistan. The Indian Naval Air Arm operates the carrierborne MiG-29K Fulcrum-D, whose primary anti-ship weapon is the Russian Kh-35U Uran, but maritime strike roles are also shared with the Indian Air Force, which has a dedicated anti-ship squadron of Jaguar-IMs. There is no prospect of the Indian Naval Air Arm taking on sole responsibility of anti-shipping strikes. The Indian Air Force is keen to preserve this capability, having acquired 22 AGM-84L Harpoon Block-II anti-ship cruise missiles for the Jaguar-IM and test-fired it in May 2015. The Air Force’s upgraded MiG-29UPG also features the Kh-35U. The service’s Sukhoi Su-30MKI test-fired an air-launched variant of the BrahMos – the sole supersonic anti-ship cruise missile indigenous to South Asia – in November 2017 and is tipped to gradually integrate the missile with the Sukhois.
Unlike its Indian rival, the Pakistan Naval Aviation has no dedicated MSF component, which is found with the Air Force operating the Mirage-5PA3 armed with the AM-39 Exocet, a venerable but aging design like the fighter itself. The Pakistan Air Force has since acquired the JF-17 Thunder, a multirole fighter equipped with the more capable Chinese-origin C-802A.

If Navy or PAF gets twin engine heavy strike Jett around 45 to 56 in number along JF-17 will neutralize Indian edge on this side. Lets see any j series or SU or F15 eagle will change the balance on other front PN is going fine and smooth.

Pakistan has better chances of getting the F-22 than the P-1. Japan will never do anything to jeopardize relations with India which it sees as a bulwark against China. Pakistan’s engagement with japan will be limited to used Suzukis. Don’t even bother that direction.

Some what is right but they all know india too how capable they are and willing to take sides

 

[Shabi1]

South Asia In South Asia, the key players in the MSF realm are India and Pakistan. The Indian Naval Air Arm operates the carrierborne MiG-29K Fulcrum-D, whose primary anti-ship weapon is the Russian Kh-35U Uran, but maritime strike roles are also shared with the Indian Air Force, which has a dedicated anti-ship squadron of Jaguar-IMs. There is no prospect of the Indian Naval Air Arm taking on sole responsibility of anti-shipping strikes. The Indian Air Force is keen to preserve this capability, having acquired 22 AGM-84L Harpoon Block-II anti-ship cruise missiles for the Jaguar-IM and test-fired it in May 2015. The Air Force’s upgraded MiG-29UPG also features the Kh-35U. The service’s Sukhoi Su-30MKI test-fired an air-launched variant of the BrahMos – the sole supersonic anti-ship cruise missile indigenous to South Asia – in November 2017 and is tipped to gradually integrate the missile with the Sukhois.
Unlike its Indian rival, the Pakistan Naval Aviation has no dedicated MSF component, which is found with the Air Force operating the Mirage-5PA3 armed with the AM-39 Exocet, a venerable but aging design like the fighter itself. The Pakistan Air Force has since acquired the JF-17 Thunder, a multirole fighter equipped with the more capable Chinese-origin C-802A.

I've been reading alot on this forum about people wanting PN to boost its air arm which is good on paper but the reality is what matters is about having assets that can make a difference in time of war.

Must understand PN primary role is to prevent a naval blockade of Pakistani shipping lanes. Indian navy's primary role is force projection and blockade of supplies to Pakistan. Both are different.

PN has a different strategy and relies primarily on it's submarine force for the offensive punch. These submarines ensure if India moves its Navy towards Pakistan, yes they can inflict damage to PN but they will risk heavy losses on their side as well.

Both Indian and Pakistani air assets with anti ship capability are shore based which can be knocked out by surprise or a missile strike. Indian jets cannot takeoff from aircraft carriers armed with Anti Ship missiles. So in both cases these are defending assets against a aggressor force. Also while aircraft have limited loiter time submarines can remain in the theater for months, making your enemy think very hard before risking a advance.

In case of war assets that would go offensive into Indian waters would be PN submarines, these are being added in good number and cannot be harmed by Brahmos/SU-30s/Mig-29Ks. Recent skirmish has shown even our unupgraded Agosta managed to stay undetected by Indian Navy for almost a month despite their latest P-8s working round the clock. Rest of PN assets would be on defence inside international or Pakistani waters preventing a naval blockade and countering Indian submarines which PN has displayed it can catch time and again.

It won't be a walk in the park for either side. Naval air power is important but in case of Pakistan it is not that much of a deciding factor as being hyped, PN should and is concentrating on a mix of assets that suites it's need.

 

[Dazzler]

 

[CHI RULES]

I've been reading alot on this forum about people wanting PN to boost its air arm which is good on paper but the reality is what matters is about having assets that can make a difference in time of war.

Must understand PN primary role is to prevent a naval blockade of Pakistani shipping lanes. Indian navy's primary role is force projection and blockade of supplies to Pakistan. Both are different.

PN has a different strategy and relies primarily on it's submarine force for the offensive punch. These submarines ensure if India moves its Navy towards Pakistan, yes they can inflict damage to PN but they will risk heavy losses on their side as well.

Both Indian and Pakistani air assets with anti ship capability are shore based which can be knocked out by surprise or a missile strike. Indian jets cannot takeoff from aircraft carriers armed with Anti Ship missiles. So in both cases these are defending assets against a aggressor force. Also while aircraft have limited loiter time submarines can remain in the theater for months, making your enemy think very hard before risking a advance.

In case of war assets that would go offensive into Indian waters would be PN submarines, these are being added in good number and cannot be harmed by Brahmos/SU-30s/Mig-29Ks. Recent skirmish has shown even our unupgraded Agosta managed to stay undetected by Indian Navy for almost a month despite their latest P-8s working round the clock. Rest of PN assets would be on defence inside international or Pakistani waters preventing a naval blockade and countering Indian submarines which PN has displayed it can catch time and again.

It won't be a walk in the park for either side. Naval air power is important but in case of Pakistan it is not that much of a deciding factor as being hyped, PN should and is concentrating on a mix of assets that suites it's need.

Sir history reveals many bitter truth of past in Operation Trident Pak faced unbearable damage simply due to lack of technology and superiority of enemy. Meanwhile PAF and PA performed relatively well despite 1971 separation of one part of the country.

I am quite agreed that due to defensive doctrine and limited aims PN does not need separate air arm however it do needs full air cover especially considering the fact that even in near future the PN ships at best shall have medium range SAMs i.e up to 70 Km range if HQ16 latest version considered otherwise it shall be up to only 40-50 KM at max.
We have to induct a true heavy multi role fighter in addition to JF17, at least to provide sufficient air cover to our naval assets from threats posed by Mig 29Ks and SU30.

 

[Shabi1]

Sir history reveals many bitter truth of past in Operation Trident Pak faced unbearable damage simply due to lack of technology and superiority of enemy. Meanwhile PAF and PA performed relatively well despite 1971 separation of one part of the country.

I am quite agreed that due to defensive doctrine and limited aims PN does not need separate air arm however it do needs full air cover especially considering the fact that even in near future the PN ships at best shall have medium range SAMs i.e up to 70 Km range if HQ16 latest version considered otherwise it shall be up to only 40-50 KM at max.
We have to induct a true heavy multi role fighter in addition to JF17, at least to provide sufficient air cover to our naval assets from threats posed by Mig 29Ks and SU30.

Operation Tridant tactics cannot be used again as PN now has long range coastal missile batteries and AWACs patrols.