Pakistan must MORE Naval forces ASAP

[aakash_2410]

This paise hain post makes me laugh, india receives about a billion pounds in aid, from the UK every year. This indian hubris is just priceless and totally adorable. LoL

I agree that was a lame post but you were'nt less either? India does NOT get ANY aid frm u.k. or any other country!! [yeah I would know as i'm british indian myself!] My reply could have been 'You guys get billions of dollars aids to fight against terrorism but you spend it on your military buildup against india' but i WON'T!! Keep the thread civil! Please guys!

 

[Penguin]

India does NOT get ANY aid frm u.k. or any other country!!

"Total UK bilateral aid received (2009/2010): £295.1 million"
DFID - India

"India has received more foreign aid than any other developing nation since the end of World War II--estimated at almost $55 billion since the beginning of its First Five-Year Plan in 1951. Foreign aid has directly financed and sustained India's centralized planning and control framework and thereby financed the growth of one of the noncommunist world's largest and most inefficient public sectors."
Cato Policy Analysis No. 170 May 6, 1992 Foreign Aid and India: Financing the Leviathan State

"India will still remain the biggest recipient of Japan's official development assistance (ODA) in the near future. Since Japan's first ODA to India in 1958, the country has received monetary aid worth Rs 89,500 crore (Rs 895 billion) so far, according to Noro Motoyoshi, Japanese consul general in Kolkata. In 2008, Japan's ODA to India was up by more than 18% compared to 2007 at Rs 6916 crore (Rs 69.16 billion).

The biggest direct aid donor countries to India are Japan and UK, as well as multiple international humanitarian aid programs supported through NGOs, in addition to the World Bank, UNICEF, UNESCO, UNDP, WFP, and a whole alphabet soup of organizations active in helping the teeming population of the poor, the illiterates, the hungry and and the destitute in India."
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/04/foreign-aid-continues-to-pour-in-india.html


Japan > US$949 million to India
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/5/44285062.g

UK > US$700 million to India
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/53/44285551.gifif

Germany > US$289 million to India
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/42/1/44284478.gif

 

[ANG]

Hi, let's not digress from the topic at hand and start discussing aid. India might receive aid, but she is more than capable of standing on its own feet and has massive currency reserves. Unfortunately, Pakistan is completely broke and is complete dependent on aid and charity just to pay its debt payments. That is why the PN is so underfunded and has limited capabilities. Pakistan is very lucky China offers it soft loans and grants to buy weapons. Take care.

 

[Safriz]

Hi, let's not digress from the topic at hand and start discussing aid. India might receive aid, but she is more than capable of standing on its own feet and has massive currency reserves. Unfortunately, Pakistan is completely broke and is complete dependent on aid and charity just to pay its debt payments. That is why the PN is so underfunded and has limited capabilities. Pakistan is very lucky China offers it soft loans and grants to buy weapons. Take care.

Look at the bright side...Being broke means we cant afford to buy weapons from abroad,and that may lead us to try and develop weapons at home,and that will be good

 

[Safriz]

About Naval missile defense,its becoming easier by the day to make a gizmo to try and shoot down incoming missiles.Unlike an aircraft which can carry a limited amount of resources,a ship can carry a thousand or two thousand tons of equipment dedicated for missile defence..There can be many hit and try...The gattling gun can spray bullets in the approximate direction of incoming missile,many times over,as unlike an aircraft,a ship is less likely to run out of bullets.The only issue in the case of super/hypersonic missile will be short response time as from launch to impact there wont be much time...
Luckily Brahmos is not a completely terrain hugging missile,as a terrain hugger can be lost by ship radar in the sea clutter . The initial Boost phase will give ample time to a well built radar to detect and predict the trajectory of the missile and the guns can be adjusted accordingly.The last dive of the missile may be tricky as the radar risk losing track of the incoming missile,but then again,the system can have a pre calculated trajectory of the missile,as Brahmos is less likely to be highly maneuverable,and wont deviate too much from a predicted path.In addition to all that,Brahmos must have a very High IR signature for all sorts of reasons,and that to will help a lot in missile detection and tracking.

Here is an old thread where the matter has been discussed
http://www.defence.pk/forums/naval-forces/11580-ship-counter-measures-against-anti-ship-missile.html

 

[jagjitnatt]

Luckily Brahmos is not a completely terrain hugging missile,as a terrain hugger can be lost by ship radar in the sea clutter . The initial Boost phase will give ample time to a well built radar to detect and predict the trajectory of the missile and the guns can be adjusted accordingly.The last dive of the missile may be tricky as the radar risk losing track of the incoming missile,but then again,the system can have a pre calculated trajectory of the missile,as Brahmos is less likely to be highly maneuverable,and wont deviate too much from a predicted path.In addition to all that,Brahmos must have a very High IR signature for all sorts of reasons,and that to will help a lot in missile detection and tracking.

A few corrections mate:
- There is nothing like sea clutter. Sea is vastly empty and all vessels are huge in size, and can be easily identified on a radar.
- No missile hugs the terrain for the complete distance. The missiles only hug for the final phase of the flight. Hugging the terrain makes the missile consume 3-4 times more fuel, thereby reducing its range.
- The missile would be detected by the ship, no doubt. The only advantage of Brahmos is the low reaction time it offers to the target. From the time of launch to the destruction of target, the time duration is just 6 min. When the missile is detected, it would only be 3 min away.
- Thinking that Brahmos is not maneuverable is another mistake. Brahmos has successfully carried out S maneuvers at Mach 2 speeds. It has huge fins for a reason. You can not predict the direction of the missile. There his hardly anything PN can do to stop it.
- It will have a high IR signature, but no higher than a regular aircraft.

 

[Rafi]

Yes but it will have a huge IR signature, as the metal will be white hot. This will allow heat seaking missiles who are also very fast and manoeuvrable a huge target.

 

[Safriz]

A few corrections mate:
- There is nothing like sea clutter. Sea is vastly empty and all vessels are huge in size, and can be easily identified on a radar.
- No missile hugs the terrain for the complete distance. The missiles only hug for the final phase of the flight. Hugging the terrain makes the missile consume 3-4 times more fuel, thereby reducing its range.
- The missile would be detected by the ship, no doubt. The only advantage of Brahmos is the low reaction time it offers to the target. From the time of launch to the destruction of target, the time duration is just 6 min. When the missile is detected, it would only be 3 min away.
- Thinking that Brahmos is not maneuverable is another mistake. Brahmos has successfully carried out S maneuvers at Mach 2 speeds. It has huge fins for a reason. You can not predict the direction of the missile. There his hardly anything PN can do to stop it.
- It will have a high IR signature, but no higher than a regular aircraft.

Ok i dont know about S manoeuvrings carried out by Brahmos..Surprises me.
Abou sea clutter..Its the Radar reflection of Sea waves which appear as solid targets.You know waves at sea can be massive and often give big radar reflection.Thats sea clutter.

About IR signature..Anything traveling that fast has to have a huge IR signature....Dont you think?

 

[Safriz]

For those who say Scram jet will be incorporated in Brahmos and it will still be a cruise..i am flabbergasted.

At sea level and at supersonic speed,the air starts to act as solid medium,not gas. Materials dont have strength to withstand the stresses...If Indian scientists can build a missile with Scramjet,flying at mach 6+,and keep it at low altitude...I think they wil deserve more than one nobel prizes,because that wil be equivalent of bending the laws of Fluid dynamics and Physics in general.
I am no expert at fluid dynamics..May be a university graduate in this subject can give better info,but here is an example of Hypersonic speeds.

These are MIRVs hitting targets..Their speed may be in the range of mach 10..which is high hypersonic speed as intended for scramjets.Note that all are just white blobs of hot metal or ceramics and follow a straight path,as any manoeuvrings at that speed is out of question.Also notice the IR signature?

If Indian scientists can devise a system which will enable manoeuvrings at Hypersonic speeds..i am sure not only the missile will sell,the technology too will make billions for india as it will be a new thing which doesnt exist in practical use anywhere.

 

[Kinetic]

For those who say Scram jet will be incorporated in Brahmos and it will still be a cruise..i am flabbergasted.

At sea level and at supersonic speed,the air starts to act as solid medium,not gas. Materials dont have strength to withstand the stresses...If Indian scientists can build a missile with Scramjet,flying at mach 6+,and keep it at low altitude...I think they wil deserve more than one nobel prizes,because that wil be equivalent of bending the laws of Fluid dynamics and Physics in general.
I am no expert at fluid dynamics..May be a university graduate in this subject can give better info,but here is an example of Hypersonic speeds.

These are MIRVs hitting targets..Their speed may be in the range of mach 10..which is high hypersonic speed as intended for scramjets.Note that all are just white blobs of hot metal or ceramics and follow a straight path,as any manoeuvrings at that speed is out of question.Also notice the IR signature?

If Indian scientists can devise a system which will enable manoeuvrings at Hypersonic speeds..i am sure not only the missile will sell,the technology too will make billions for india as it will be a new thing which doesnt exist in practical use anywhere.

These are the MIRVs from Peacekeeper ICBM, they have speed of nearly Mac 20+.

And Brahmos doesn't cruise at low altitude all of its flight path but mainly at terminal phase. Brahmos with Mach 2.8 still a highly maneuverable, I guess though less maneuverability than current generation Brahmos the new hypersonic one will be fast enough to give very little reaction time as well as high kinetic energy. Thats the main reason they might be seeking.

This is something about Brahmos Block III test last week...

BrahMos capability in mountain warfare tested

The mission highlight was the missile performing tricky manoeuvres, rolls and a vertical dive towards the targeted area in the Bay of Bengal even as it flew at a velocity of 2.8 times the speed of sound. It was the missile's Block III version, boasting advanced guidance and upgraded software, that was tested. The flight established the missile's precision strike capability in mountain warfare.

After a vertical take-off, BrahMos performed manoeuvres at different points in its range while cruising at a high altitude at a velocity of Mach 2.8, said Dr. Pillai, who is also the Chief Executive Officer, BrahMos Aerospace Private Limited. He declined to disclose the altitude at which it cruised.

"Block III version of BrahMos with advanced guidance and upgraded software, incorporating high manoeuvres at multiple points and steep dive from high altitude was flight tested successfully from Launch Complex III of ITR," its ITR Director S P Dash said after the test fire from a mobile launcher at 1100 hours.

 

[Safriz]

^^^ The point was about maneuverability and heat signature.

This video shows an alleged test fire of Brahmos on a stationary target...The missile does look like flying supersonic at hitting the target..But i am not sure if it had the warhead or not? As it doesnt cause any significant damage.
Most importantly how effective it will be against Moving targets,such as ships?
Maneuverability at those speeds will be a hindrance.

 

[jagjitnatt]

This video shows an alleged test fire of Brahmos on a stationary target...The missile does look like flying supersonic at hitting the target..But i am not sure if it had the warhead or not? As it doesnt cause any significant damage.

All test have been carried out without a live warhead.

Most importantly how effective it will be against Moving targets,such as ships?
Maneuverability at those speeds will be a hindrance.

Ships sure are moving targets, but they are slow moving targets, and an easy target for Brahmos. A ship moving at 50 km/h can not evade a missile at 3000 km/hr.

The missile won't maneuver like a jet aircraft, but it does maneuver pretty well, in the category of A2A missiles.

And it will have a heat signature, but not glowing red type. Ram jet, and scramjet are highly efficient propulsion systems and use up less fuel thereby reducing the heat. The heat due to drag would be a problem, but it won't be any more than that of an aircraft, because the missile is aerodynamic in shape.
Shooting Brahmos down with a heat seeking missile is possible, but you'll need the right direction, and a lot of luck, since the missile won't be able to trail Brahmos, and will run of out fuel before it reaches Brahmos. Also the reaction time would be very very low (<30 sec)

 

[Kinetic]

^^^ The point was about maneuverability and heat signature.

I have talked about maneuverability and about heat signature I don't think many countries have ground based long range thermal imager to to track supersonic cruise missile. Above all it has very short reaction time.

YouTube - Indian Brahmos Missile test hits bullseye at speed MACH 2.9+


This video shows an alleged test fire of Brahmos on a stationary target...The missile does look like flying supersonic at hitting the target..But i am not sure if it had the warhead or not? As it doesnt cause any significant damage.

It certainly do not have any warhead because there was no explosions, just penetrated the wall.

You can watch the video between 3:50 to 4:16 when Brahmos armed with warhead...

Most importantly how effective it will be against Moving targets,such as ships?
Maneuverability at those speeds will be a hindrance.

Brahmos navy is an anti-ship weapon with active radar seeker.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well things are looking good for Pakistan Navy

8 - F22P frigates China (4 in hand - 4 coming F23P designation)
May be 4 Type083 friagtes/Destroyers
6 - OHP friagtes from US (1 in hand - 5 coming)
8 - P3 orions
8 - Anti Submarine Helicopters from China
12 - Submarines from China (12 submarines discussions on going)


What we really do need is the Submarine deals to go thru , and the OHP arrivals on schedule not late or held in state of limbo

We could have retired our old ships if we had inducted 1 Destroyer from US but that is old story

Right now the pressure is on the gov to close the deal on Submarines and More frigates - ASAP

 

[Safriz]

^^^ instead of retiring old ships...Convert them into power plants..MArine Hevy oil engines fitted on those ships are cheap to run and maintain...Modification will be required...fitting a generator instead of propeller.