Pakistan must MORE Naval forces ASAP

[satishkumarcsc]

I think Pakistan Navy would be more afraid of Indian Anti Ship Missiles rather than a cruise missile like Brahmos.

Brahmos comes in different blocks if you dont know about it. The first one is Antiship and the second is Land attack capability. So you will be facing Klub, Bhramos, and Moskit along with the KH 31 missiles for anti ship roles.

 

[PakSher]

Back to discussion. PN needs to focus on fleet expansion.

The PN Air Arm has added P3C-Orions, Z9 Helicopters, Fixed Winged Aircraft along with BVR missiles for the PN Support Aircraft.

F-22s are a good start, Perry Class Frigates is a short-medium term solution. Addition of the submarine hunters, fast attack naval craft, attack missile boats, heavy destroyers and the Turkish Milgem Class Boats all need to be added to the PN's fleet. PN has done a good job with missile boats manufactured locally and with F-22 being built at home will also give PN the boost needed to a Navy of the 21st Century.

Lot has been done and lot needs to be done.

 

[Penguin]

Brahmos comes in different blocks if you dont know about it. The first one is Antiship and the second is Land attack capability. So you will be facing Klub, Bhramos, and Moskit along with the KH 31 missiles for anti ship roles.

Which Indian ships and/or aircraft carry P270 Moskit? Which anti-ship version of Klub does IN actually employ (3M-54E, 3M-54E1 or both)?

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Which Indian ships and/or aircraft carry P270 Moskit? Which anti-ship version of Klub does IN actually employ (3M-54E, 3M-54E1 or both)?

The Talwar class frigates ( Krivak III class) are equipped with the Klub 3M-54E

Talwar Class Frigate - Naval Technology

The Sindugosh class ( Kilo class) submarines are are equipped with the Klub after modernization.

Yes I made a mistake..it was the Uran class KH 35 which is on the Delhi class destroyers. Not the Moskit

Delhi Class Destroyers - Naval Technology

Shivalik Class Frigates - Naval Technology

The Shivalik also carries the Klub.
The Frigates namely the Krivak IV class arriving next year will be fitted with the Bhramos.

The Rajput/Kashin II class destroyers carry the Bhramos as of now.

Indian navy also uses the Sea Eagle missile integrated to the Sea King helicopter and its Harriers.

Indian Naval Aviation - Part 1

And Harpoons along with the P8I Poseidon.

 

[Safriz]

Safriz, Can you tell us your thought how Pakistan Navy respond to BrahMos missiles ?

Step one would be an accurate and detailed Intelligence on the Missile's design,construction and capabilities..Once we know it inside out...Countermeasures can be devised and will be most effective...

My example may be irrelevant,but when Pratt&Whittney made their first Jet engine..Russian spies walked around the factory,and inside the factory with sticky shoes.The shoes were then sent to laboratories in Russia for detailed examinations and that's how they came to know precisely what the jet engine was made of..

Something of similar lines should be done by ISI..A perfect intel on every weapon system bought or made by India.

 

[jagjitnatt]

Step one would be an accurate and detailed Intelligence on the Missile's design,construction and capabilities..Once we know it inside out...Countermeasures can be devised and will be most effective...

My example may be irrelevant,but when Pratt&Whittney made their first Jet engine..Russian spies walked around the factory,and inside the factory with sticky shoes.The shoes were then sent to laboratories in Russia for detailed examinations and that's how they came to know precisely what the jet engine was made of..

Something of similar lines should be done by ISI..A perfect intel on every weapon system bought or made by India.

Let me give u a hint straight on.
A gattling gun can hunt down Brahmos. You'll need some luck by your side, and a gattling gun capable of firing thousands of rounds per minute.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Step one would be an accurate and detailed Intelligence on the Missile's design,construction and capabilities..Once we know it inside out...Countermeasures can be devised and will be most effective...

My example may be irrelevant,but when Pratt&Whittney made their first Jet engine..Russian spies walked around the factory,and inside the factory with sticky shoes.The shoes were then sent to laboratories in Russia for detailed examinations and that's how they came to know precisely what the jet engine was made of..

Something of similar lines should be done by ISI..A perfect intel on every weapon system bought or made by India.

This information could be acquired through espionage but this is a very dangerous and risky project, i can assure you Indian and Russian facilities are quite well protected.

In my opinion and as other senior members have pointed out before, the key to defeating Brahmos is early detection. As soon as the missile is launched whether from an Airborne, Sea or Land platform, our commanders should be aware because the response has to be fast considering that Brahmos travels at Mach 3. If its travelling at Mach 3, its likely that its going to be travelling at a height ceiling of 40 000 feet and at that speed it would be emitting huge amounts of IR signature due to the height. Considering how extensive our radar coverage is, it should not be a problem to pick it up. Since we are talking in terms of naval combat, combat ships usually have layers of defence. A SAM can be launched for a head on interception from distance or Chaffs/Flares can be launched from distance to seduce the Brahmos which is homing in. The last layer of defence for a ship is its CIWS Phalanx. Modern Day Phalanx linked up with FLIR, can launch thousands of rounds in a matter of seconds, Brahmos does not stand a chance in front of that. I would be more worried if a sea skimming Anti Ship Missile is approaching our fleet, due to its low IR signature and low flying altitude, it would be really hard for our radars to pick that up.

 

[notorious_eagle]

^^ CIWS Phalanx currently on F-22Ps, not FLIR including

F-22P uses a Type 730 CIWS.

"The Type 730 is a Chinese seven-barrelled 30 mm Gatling gun CIWS. It has a PLA-N designation H/PJ12. It is mounted in an enclosed automatic turret and directed by radar, and electro-optical tracking systems. The maximum rate of fire is 5800 rd/m, and the effective range is up to 3 km."

Electro Optics

The OFC-3 system is modular design that is consisted of a laser range finder, a color TV camera, and an IR camera, and the laser range finder can be replaced by a laser designator (for the laser beam riding SAM), the TV camera can be replaced by a night vision camera, and the IR camera can be replaced by a ImIR, at higher cost. Development to incorporate the dual band IR, night vision camera, and the color TV camera is reportedly in progress.

Fire Control System

Like western CIWS, Type 730 CIWS is an autonomous closed-loop system and thus offers faster reaction time than the Russian AK-630, but Type 730 CIWS lacks the local manual control such as that on AK-230. Type 730 CIWS is fully compatible with Chinese and European combat data systems such as ZKJ-1, ZKJ-4, ZKJ-4A-3, ZKJ-5, ZKJ-6, ZKJ-7, H/ZBJ-1, and Thomson-CSF TAVITAC, and can be directly integrated with these combat data systems without any modification.

Our modified Harpoon Missiles is useful but not faster like BrahMos.

To take out a ship, i would put my money on a Harpoon any day over the Brahmos. Brahmos is an excellent cruise missile and can be quite deadly for land based targets, but its not as potent against well protected warships in the sea. Faster means squat if your enemy has excellent radar coverage and the necessary weapons to counter your attack.

 

[indushek]

This information could be acquired through espionage but this is a very dangerous and risky project, i can assure you Indian and Russian facilities are quite well protected.

In my opinion and as other senior members have pointed out before, the key to defeating Brahmos is early detection. As soon as the missile is launched whether from an Airborne, Sea or Land platform, our commanders should be aware because the response has to be fast considering that Brahmos travels at Mach 3. If its travelling at Mach 3, its likely that its going to be travelling at a height ceiling of 40 000 feet and at that speed it would be emitting huge amounts of IR signature due to the height. Considering how extensive our radar coverage is, it should not be a problem to pick it up. Since we are talking in terms of naval combat, combat ships usually have layers of defence. A SAM can be launched for a head on interception from distance or Chaffs/Flares can be launched from distance to seduce the Brahmos which is homing in. The last layer of defence for a ship is its CIWS Phalanx. Modern Day Phalanx linked up with FLIR, can launch thousands of rounds in a matter of seconds, Brahmos does not stand a chance in front of that. I would be more worried if a sea skimming Anti Ship Missile is approaching our fleet, due to its low IR signature and low flying altitude, it would be really hard for our radars to pick that up.

I thought that cruise missiles have a terrain hugging flight path, which i think means they fly very low right?? 40,000 feet seems to be abnormally high for a cruise missile to follow even though at supersonic speeds. I think 40,000 feet is like a fighter aircrafts sealing rather than a supersonic missiles?? please explain and correct and me if i am wrong.

 

[Rafi]

I thought that cruise missiles have a terrain hugging flight path, which i think means they fly very low right?? 40,000 feet seems to be abnormally high for a cruise missile to follow even though at supersonic speeds. I think 40,000 feet is like a fighter aircrafts sealing rather than a supersonic missiles?? please explain and correct and me if i am wrong.

A super sonic missile can not fly a terrain hugging flight path, it is simply impossible.

 

[Penguin]

A super sonic missile can not fly a terrain hugging flight path, it is simply impossible.

But we're talking AT SEA, not over terrain here and sea is a lot more flat, wouldn't you say?

In fact, Brahmos can do either low level trajectory or high level trajectory. I'm assuming range can be optimized by a portion of the trajectory being flown at high level. Besides sea-skimming, high-diving is another common AShM approach technique. Ideally, you want to combine the two so as to plit up the defences.

Other russian systems use a technique where by a salvo of missiles is launched and flight high to look at the target by radar while the rest trails along low. If the high flyer is killed, another missile in the pack take that position etc.

 

[ANG]

Dear All, a phalanx system might be able to stop a single anti-ship missile. However, given the speed of the Brahmos, I would not want to be in the ship trying to intercept it. Moreover, most anti-ship missiles are fired in volleys now and are pre-programmed to attack simultaneously and at different points of the ship, aft, port, topside, left-side, etc. This overloads the anti-shipping systems and ensures a hit.

I personally think the PN made a mistake buying these F-22Ps, they will not stand a chance in any potential combat. The PN should have invested in more subs, and combat airplanes like the JF-17 or JH7A, and tactical nukes to hit ships in the ocean without land fallout and contamination. Take care.

 

[indushek]

But we're talking AT SEA, not over terrain here and sea is a lot more flat, wouldn't you say?

In fact, Brahmos can do either low level trajectory or high level trajectory. I'm assuming range can be optimized by a portion of the trajectory being flown at high level. Besides sea-skimming, high-diving is another common AShM approach technique. Ideally, you want to combine the two so as to plit up the defences.

Other russian systems use a technique where by a salvo of missiles is launched and flight high to look at the target by radar while the rest trails along low. If the high flyer is killed, another missile in the pack take that position etc.

Actually Sir i was trying to ask the question reagarding the land platform. Can u please let me know if the Brahmos can do a terrain hugging on land vesion?? it would be helpful if u could point out why if it cannot.

Particularly Mr. notorius eagles point of 40,000 ft is too high according to me even if the missile is a supersonic one, because i remember reading somewhere about the vertical launching of brahmos and it doing the S-shaped manouvere (whatever that is) or something and also a steep dive.

 

[Safriz]

^^ dont you think terrain hugging is too far fetched for a hypersonic missile? It wont change path quick enough to follow the contours of land...For speed you pay the penalty of maneuverability.

 

[truthseeker2010]

I agree that F-22P wasn't a good choice, rather PN should focus more on subs and aviation in the short run.