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Pakistan might consider the Klimov RD-33MK for JF-17

This is not correct. PAF, like any other operator, follows the book. If the book says 200 hour inspection, 600 you inspection, 1200 overhaul, then thats how it is. Nobody juices the engine to 7000 hours to see what will happen. Do you think a flame out and crash of JF17 be good for the program? Which PAF official makes this claim?
The claim came from AC Khalid Mahmood in an interview with Air International in December 2013, but people have misinterpreted what he said.

His statement, "We've flown 7000 hours with the engine and we haven't had any problems..." wasn't in context of a single specific engine, but the total sum of hours logged by all RD-93s being flown by the PAF at the time.
 
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The claim came from AC Khalid Mahmood in an interview with Air International in December 2013, but people have misinterpreted what he said.

His statement, "We've flown 7000 hours with the engine and we haven't had any problems..." wasn't in context of a single specific engine, but the total sum of hours logged by all RD-93s being flown by the PAF at the time.
7000 cumulative, not unitary, as per Rangar's statement (KM for you guys, Mig killer for us old chaps."
 
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I guess sales people of industrial equipment could not understand concepts we take for granted.
I think we just misread the article the first time, going back to it, I'm not sure how we got to the 7000 hour per engine conclusion.
 
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In our case we reduced the inspection time of Al 31 engines..:mad:

For the safety purpose.
 
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EJ200 is in a consortium currently led by the Germans. I am not saying it will not sell it Pakistan, I am saying it is currently not cleared for Export. The only way it will sell is Pakistan guarantees the Engine will not fly to China. On the airframe / engine side, PAF is still dependent on the Chinese for configuration and design changes. Hence, no engine change can be done without CATIC, and no western government will approve their engine going to China.

If Pakistan can order 36 (at least) EFT in small trenches with few LRSAMS or possibly some new or used ships, it can add 150 engines and avionics deal in it and European countries will not deny that kind of money.
 
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I think we just misread the article the first time, going back to it, I'm not sure how we got to the 7000 hour per engine conclusion.

No problem dear. We are here to educate you smart thinking minds, as our time is done. So, engines have TBO (Time before overhaul) and TSO (Time since overhaul). They have mandatory inspection stops, unless defect reported by pilot, or ground crew. Rule book is followed to the dot. Nobody messes around with the engine.

The strict maintenance regime of PAF will ensure RD93 and JF17 will have low risk service in the force.
 
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According to PAF officials they have juiced these engines up to 7000 Hours without problems..
Some times special variations funded by end user require deliberate under-rated labelling to deceive the adversary..

that 7000 hours were the accumulated figures of all operational jets engines ... not of a single engine ....
 
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If Pakistan can order 36 (at least) EFT in small trenches with few LRSAMS or possibly some new or used ships, it can add 150 engines and avionics deal in it and European countries will not deny that kind of money.
Yeah, but if only we had that kind of money. Unfortunately, we don't. The only way the Europeans would agree to sell to us given our economic condition is if they decide to extend financing, but that is almost always done out of political and geo-strategic consideration, not pure commercial interest. Moreover, even if we had that kind of money, I don't think it would be wise to spend it on complete Western systems, maybe a few subsystems (e.g. HMD/S, ECM/EW, etc), but not whole fighter aircraft.
 
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No problem dear. We are here to educate you smart thinking minds, as our time is done. So, engines have TBO (Time before overhaul) and TSO (Time since overhaul). They have mandatory inspection stops, unless defect reported by pilot, or ground crew. Rule book is followed to the dot. Nobody messes around with the engine.

The strict maintenance regime of PAF will ensure RD93 and JF17 will have low risk service in the force.
Except off course in this cases like these
28 Oct 1991 [w/o] 85725 81-0923
paf.gif
PAF 14 sqn
F-16A Block 15U
Crashed in Attock, Pakistan after it suffered an engine failure during a dogfight training mission with the pilot, Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum, ejected safely. The engine failure was caused by installing not an original part in the engine during routine maintenance.

Considering that the only "on the dot" procedure that was not followed was a technician putting a ATAR part on the F-100.

There plenty of other cases where rules were not followed.
 
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Pakistan should consider EJ-200.
@Quwa @The Eagle @Horus @Oscar

In my short knowledge and a bit of reading at PDF, my words as follows.

No doubt, PAF is satisfied with RD-93 performance which provides more power than RD-33 but having a less life. Not to forget that officials stated to be satisfied for the time being so it could be like waiting for better alternative that can surpass the necessity/need of RD-93 with more power, life and support.

Also to remember, WS-13 is almost closing to finalization phase and soon (I hope) would be announced for production. Furthermore, we are looking for advance/better avionics like AESA, IRST etc for upcoming JFT block-III which warrants the necessity of more power and RD-33 lacks the same in front of current JFT engine, RD-93. It was also discussed by many senior members that even RD-93 may not be able to handle all that power and doubts were told but the few shared that RD-93 may accommodate the required power of AESA tailored for JFT having a smaller size while keeping in view the nose-cone of JFT but in conclusion we may feel the requirement of more powerful, long life and reliable service after sale engine.

IMO, it was like to stick with RD-93 for JFT Block-I & II until & unless Chinese engine or to the some extent we have hands upon engine like EJ-200 but seems like it is going to be WS-13 for future blocks of JFT including JF-17B. Also to remember that on many occasion, we have been expressing our reservations with respect to relying on West or US so also we have some kind of "not to be trusted" thing that the sale or spares could be blocked any time in case of controversy or things gone wrong so in this case, China is to be trusted more than them that stands with us as proven on many occasions in past. Rather to rely upon moody friends, better to be in the company of trustworthy. EJ-200 is not alone product of England but consortium includes 3 countries so going for the same engine is like to deal with all these partners especially Germany and never to make angry anyone of them that can effect our security, money, time and above all delayed induction of an engine (WS-13) from reliable friend, China. However, if we succeed to secure the any arm deal for any of our forces from any of these nations, might pave the way towards something like EJ-200 but chances are less.

Indeed, RD-33 holds more life than RD-93 but lacks power that would be required in future blocks due to integration of AESA, IRST etc. so in my humble opinion, any engine powerful than RD-93 with more life would make it to PAF for JFT and while looking at current situation and our relations with West, US and all, seems like it is going to be Chinese that we can trust more than others. We have to keep in view the expected future induction of FC-31 as well which may fly with WS-13 so to avoid maintenance hurdles and dealing with different parties, we might go for WS-13 in JFT along with FC-31 so that will be easy to maintain and help manufacturer to increase its reliability more than before.

However, I can be wrong in my observations or findings though the words or correction by any senior member would be appreciated.
 
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In my short knowledge and a bit of reading at PDF, my words as follows.

No doubt, PAF is satisfied with RD-93 performance which provides more power than RD-33 but having a less life. Not to forget that officials stated to be satisfied for the time being so it could be like waiting for better alternative that can surpass the necessity/need of RD-93 with more power, life and support.

Also to remember, WS-13 is almost closing to finalization phase and soon (I hope) would be announced for production. Furthermore, we are looking for advance/better avionics like AESA, IRST etc for upcoming JFT block-III which warrants the necessity of more power and RD-33 lacks the same in front of current JFT engine, RD-93. It was also discussed by many senior members that even RD-93 may not be able to handle all that power and doubts were told but the few shared that RD-93 may accommodate the required power of AESA tailored for JFT having a smaller size while keeping in view the nose-cone of JFT but in conclusion we may feel the requirement of more powerful, long life and reliable service after sale engine.

IMO, it was like to stick with RD-93 for JFT Block-I & II until & unless Chinese engine or to the some extent we have hands upon engine like EJ-200 but seems like it is going to be WS-13 for future blocks of JFT including JF-17B. Also to remember that on many occasion, we have been expressing our reservations with respect to relying on West or US so also we have some kind of "not to be trusted" thing that the sale or spares could be blocked any time in case of controversy or things gone wrong so in this case, China is to be trusted more than them that stands with us as proven on many occasions in past. Rather to rely upon moody friends, better to be in the company of trustworthy. EJ-200 is not alone product of England but consortium includes 3 countries so going for the same engine is like to deal with all these partners especially Germany and never to make angry anyone of them that can effect our security, money, time and above all delayed induction of an engine (WS-13) from reliable friend, China. However, if we succeed to secure the any arm deal for any of our forces from any of these nations, might pave the way towards something like EJ-200 but chances are less.

Indeed, RD-33 holds more life than RD-93 but lacks power that would be required in future blocks due to integration of AESA, IRST etc. so in my humble opinion, any engine powerful than RD-93 with more life would make it to PAF for JFT and while looking at current situation and our relations with West, US and all, seems like it is going to be Chinese that we can trust more than others. We have to keep in view the expected future induction of FC-31 as well which may fly with WS-13 so to avoid maintenance hurdles and dealing with different parties, we might go for WS-13 in JFT along with FC-31 so that will be easy to maintain and help manufacturer to increase its reliability more than before.

However, I can be wrong in my observations or findings though the words or correction by any senior member would be appreciated.
I heard that RD-93MA will have higher trust than both RD-93 and RD-33MK plus it would smokeless so first of all is this true ? If it is than this engine should be chosen for JF-17 block 3 and JF-17B intead of RD-33MK or WS-13. If we could get thrust vectoring nuzzles with this engine then this could be a game changer.
@Horus @Quwa @Tank131 @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar
 
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Except off course in this cases like these
28 Oct 1991 [w/o] 85725 81-0923
paf.gif
PAF 14 sqn
F-16A Block 15U
Crashed in Attock, Pakistan after it suffered an engine failure during a dogfight training mission with the pilot, Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum, ejected safely. The engine failure was caused by installing not an original part in the engine during routine maintenance.

Considering that the only "on the dot" procedure that was not followed was a technician putting a ATAR part on the F-100.

There plenty of other cases where rules were not followed.

It was just not PAF that suffered from counterfeit parts being supplied. The Air Crash Investigation of Partnerair Flight 394 in 1985 found out that US Air Force 1 was also installed with these parts.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/bogus-aircraft-parts-put-passengers-at-risk-1475502.html

https://flightsafety.org/fsd/fsd_jan-feb94.pdf

http://www.aia-aerospace.org/assets/counterfeit-web11.pdf

 
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I heard that RD-93MA will have higher trust than both RD-93 and RD-33MK plus it would smokeless so first of all is this true ? If it is than this engine should be chosen for JF-17 block 3 and JF-17B intead of RD-33MK or WS-13. If we could get thrust vectoring nuzzles with this engine then this could be a game changer.
@Horus @Quwa @Tank131 @Bilal Khan 777 @Oscar
Not on the cards.

Except off course in this cases like these
28 Oct 1991 [w/o] 85725 81-0923
paf.gif
PAF 14 sqn
F-16A Block 15U
Crashed in Attock, Pakistan after it suffered an engine failure during a dogfight training mission with the pilot, Squadron Leader Nadeem Anjum, ejected safely. The engine failure was caused by installing not an original part in the engine during routine maintenance.

Considering that the only "on the dot" procedure that was not followed was a technician putting a ATAR part on the F-100.

There plenty of other cases where rules were not followed.

The early 90s was a tumulus time. With the F16s as the mainstay, the embargo resulting by Pressler Amendment put great amount of burden on our maintenance. During this time, spares were purchased through non-OEM sources and grey market, which also include PMA and fake parts. One such incident you mention here, and there many others not in public eye.
 
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