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PAKISTAN MAY NEGOTIATE WITH UKRAINE FOR 100 OPLOT-M MAIN BATTLE TANKS

What the is the price of Oplots offered to PA?

No idea...

Here are a few pics of them during trials... According to the Ukrainians PA wants a new Remote controlled weapon system and other modifications to the tank;


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Also Heavy Industries Taxila has also signed a 600 million contract with Ukraine... Specifics of the contracts aren't released.

Since T-80UD shares the same chasis,turret,gun and other systems of the Oplot M... It can also be upgraded to OPLOT M status;
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Ukraine didn't perform well in the Oplot M business with Thiland royal army, delivery speed is extremely slow and Thiland army had lost its patience. Some of the tanks delivered are found refurbished product due to its rough surface . But the price is very competitive, only 4 millions USD per. Thiland had begun to order VT4 from China.
 
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Ukraine didn't perform well in the Oplot M business with Thiland royal army, delivery speed is extremely slow and Thiland army had lost its patience. Some of the tanks delivered are found refurbished product due to its rough surface . But the price is very competitive, only 4 millions USD per. Thiland had begun to order VT4 from China.

Because the Ukranians hadn't produce rabks since T-80UD deal with Pak.. But they are upgrading their factories for mass production of Oplot and have also offered TOT.
 
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Why bother with Oplot-M MBT when PA already has MBT of similar class?

It would make sense to pursue a heavy MBT to counter Indian heavy MBT designs. However, not expecting much from PA planners.
 
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It would make sense to pursue a heavy MBT to counter Indian heavy MBT designs. However, not expecting much from PA planners.
There is no need for Heavy MBT in PA arsenal at first place. The Indian ''heavy MBT'' offer no threat to Pakistan.
For rest couple of options are in sight and will be followed with time being.

Why bother with Oplot-M MBT when PA already has MBT of similar class?

Off shelf purchase with domestic upgrades while AK will remain in production. As a result PA will successfully replace 600 of legacy tanks with cutting edge ones in comparatively short duration of time. Otherwise with production rate of 40-50 tanks per year, HIT will take Decade and Half to meet the production requirement of 600 tanks for replacing obsolete T59 series. That's the reason both Al Khalid & Al Haider exist as per now.

Do some research .. You will find Ministry of defence production report.
We read about that report right here on PDF. 2 Al Khalid in 2015, there is no doubt about it. :)


600 by 2019..:rofl:

This 600 Target is discussed a lot, I am tied of digging old stuff. As far as Remember you were also among them who facilitated the target of having 600 in total.
https://web.archive.org/web/2013110...rity.org/military/world/pakistan/mbt-2000.htm
Any way, 7th Para. Not very credible source but this thing is discussed more than enough.

By next year AK-II probably will be revealed ... Even that has been confirmed by HIT...

1500 HP engine,more armour and self protection gizmos ...

Yup. Hopefully. Other wise we are waiting for AK2 from past half decade.............
 
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There is no need for Heavy MBT in PA arsenal at first place. The Indian ''heavy MBT'' offer no threat to Pakistan.
For rest couple of options are in sight and will be followed with time being.



Off shelf purchase with domestic upgrades while AK will remain in production. As a result PA will successfully replace 600 of legacy tanks with cutting edge ones in comparatively short duration of time. Otherwise with production rate of 40-50 tanks per year, HIT will take Decade and Half to meet the production requirement of 600 tanks for replacing obsolete T59 series. That's the reason both Al Khalid & Al Haider exist as per now.


We read about that report right here on PDF. 2 Al Khalid in 2015, there is no doubt about it. :)




This 600 Target is discussed a lot, I am tied of digging old stuff. As far as Remember you were also among them who facilitated the target of having 600 in total.
https://web.archive.org/web/2013110...rity.org/military/world/pakistan/mbt-2000.htm
Any way, 7th Para. Not very credible source but this thing is discussed more than enough.



Yup. Hopefully. Other wise we are waiting for AK2 from past half decade.............

600 was the target ... But not by 2019...:lol:


MODP 2014 mentions 450 in service and 50 on order.

AK II was frozen due to financial crunch and is on track and confirmed by HIT officials at Ideas 2016... Aswell as on their website...
 
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Oplot-M+BTR-4+Dozer-B would be a interesting combo for Pakistan

500 Oplot-M for $2 billion
2000 BTR-4 for $2 billion
10000 Dozer-B $2.5 billion

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Pak needs wheeled APC we lack it most of APC are tracked

Oplot is good but Altay is superior tech which is German engineering
 
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I hope not.....
Just go along with AK2 and supplement that with Altay, job done. Look at what's going on in Ukraine. o_O
 
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I hope not.....
Just go along with AK2 and supplement that with Altay, job done. Look at what's going on in Ukraine. o_O
Nothing is going in Ukraine. Ukrainian companies are still producing great weapons and our Defence Minister for production was recently in Ukraine so there are more chances that the Tank Mr @Army research has mentioned is indeed OPLOT M. We can get OPLOT M with TOT and I think if we try a little harder we can also get engine technology from Ukraine. Not to forget some latest Anti Tank weapons can also come from Ukraine along with other stuff. @Tipu7
 
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Pak needs wheeled APC we lack it most of APC are tracked

Oplot is good but Altay is superior tech which is German engineering


Altay is a $7 million each, I bet Oplot-M is $4 million each

you could almost buy two Oplot-M for a single Altay :D
 
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There were times when we had them as many as 1500. 600 converted to Al Zarrar, some returned back,some moved to reserves, most stayed. We should be having 320, 320 each of T59/69 still in army which IMO should be given to FC or move to reserves once replacement will become available.

Do you have any info that how many T59 were given to FC?

T-59 design has limitations for modern combat now. There are three major points regrading this:

1. Ammunition storage capacity. Modern tanks have bigger hulls and bigger turrets.
2. Speed, related to engine up gradation. 50-55km/hr on road speed is less, offroad would be lesser.
3. Armor, related to engine up gradation. More armor will improve protection but further reduce speed.

If its used as a reserve or reinforcement tank, it will only fill in numbers to bring a battered armour regiment to its full strength during war but imagine using T-59 alongside AZ, AK and T-80. Dont you think it will be more of a burden on the regiment's role and capability?

AK and T-80 are used in the desert. They have the best available engines in the MBT inventory of PA. Speed is necessary in desert not for competitive racing with enemy tanks, but constant flanking on enemy sides, rear and weak points. Desert terrain gives flexibility of movement just like ships in the sea. Flanking requires covering extra distance and this distance sometimes needs to be covered in shortest duration possible to get all units aligned for an attack. If the commander waits and postpones the attack for the flank manoeuvring regiment to get into position, he may lose excellent opportunities.

Suppose, an AK regiment loses 22 AK's in 4 days of combat. Reinforcements are 12 T-59 II's from the reserves and 10 AK's either from Division reserve or acquired from reserves of any other formation. First, the CO will have a headache of asking QM and ordnance units for 105mm ammo.Then his Ops planning will suffer as how to deploy a slow and a fast tank. Getting a trained crew wont be a problem as almost every armour soldier is trained on T-59 and sometimes crew comes with the tank from other regiments. In defensive position, it will be fine. Let the enemy come close and flank the enemy from side or take enemy head on. The problem comes in offensive posture for which his regiment has been training with AK's. His offensive punch will still be the remaining AK's. The T-59 II's will not be able to keep up.

Oplot, Type-99 .....any modern MBT that can compliment AK and T-80 in desert is welcome.

There is another problem that IA regiments most probably are larger in quantity of tanks. Pakistan has 44 tanks, India has 59 tanks in a regiment. Maybe an indian member can confirm this. IA Armoured divisions have more regiments probably 7 whereas Pakistan has 5. Quality of PA tanks maybe better but quantity is a big issue. Hoping on tactics and operational command to make up for such short comings.

With AZ regiments, the T-59 II may fare better as a reinforcement for Armour Division to continue its operations. Terrain in upper punjab, lower Kashmir regions has limitations in manoeuvring, road networks are in place, lots of fields, population and houses, bridges etc. Ammunition type maybe a problem but operational capability of the regiment will remain.

There are minimum 16-17 Infantry divisions in PA that have one armour regiment atleast. That Minimum 750 tanks, probably around 900 if mechanised divisions are taken into account. That is where the T-59 and T-69 reside. They can keep pace with the slowly moving infantry advance and give awesome firepower with HE ammo. Enemy T-72 will be countered by PA infantry ATGM teams.

Using T-59 as a reserve tank, new formations can be raised e.g. in war time, raise a new Armoured brigade.

90 x T-59 MBT (2 Regiments)
Motorised infantry (Infantry in vehicles if M-113 and Talha are not in sufficient numbers)
Artillery (reserve 105mm guns)
AD Regiment.

FC is deployed on the eastern border. I am not sure how many T-59 are given to them but im hoping atleast one regiment worth of tanks to FC KPK and Baluchistan each.

Its upto PA to decide where to use T-59 II in combat in case of war:
1. A newly formed armoured brigade
2. Bring FC in combat with heavy weapons
3. Send it as reinforcements to depleted units.

@Ulla
 
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T-59 design has limitations for modern combat now. There are three major points regrading this:

1. Ammunition storage capacity. Modern tanks have bigger hulls and bigger turrets.
2. Speed, related to engine up gradation. 50-55km/hr on road speed is less, offroad would be lesser.
3. Armor, related to engine up gradation. More armor will improve protection but further reduce speed.

If its used as a reserve or reinforcement tank, it will only fill in numbers to bring a battered armour regiment to its full strength during war but imagine using T-59 alongside AZ, AK and T-80. Dont you think it will be more of a burden on the regiment's role and capability?

AK and T-80 are used in the desert. They have the best available engines in the MBT inventory of PA. Speed is necessary in desert not for competitive racing with enemy tanks, but constant flanking on enemy sides, rear and weak points. Desert terrain gives flexibility of movement just like ships in the sea. Flanking requires covering extra distance and this distance sometimes needs to be covered in shortest duration possible to get all units aligned for an attack. If the commander waits and postpones the attack for the flank manoeuvring regiment to get into position, he may lose excellent opportunities.

Suppose, an AK regiment loses 22 AK's in 4 days of combat. Reinforcements are 12 T-59 II's from the reserves and 10 AK's either from Division reserve or acquired from reserves of any other formation. First, the CO will have a headache of asking QM and ordnance units for 105mm ammo.Then his Ops planning will suffer as how to deploy a slow and a fast tank. Getting a trained crew wont be a problem as almost every armour soldier is trained on T-59 and sometimes crew comes with the tank from other regiments. In defensive position, it will be fine. Let the enemy come close and flank the enemy from side or take enemy head on. The problem comes in offensive posture for which his regiment has been training with AK's. His offensive punch will still be the remaining AK's. The T-59 II's will not be able to keep up.

Oplot, Type-99 .....any modern MBT that can compliment AK and T-80 in desert is welcome.

There is another problem that IA regiments most probably are larger in quantity of tanks. Pakistan has 44 tanks, India has 59 tanks in a regiment. Maybe an indian member can confirm this. IA Armoured divisions have more regiments probably 7 whereas Pakistan has 5. Quality of PA tanks maybe better but quantity is a big issue. Hoping on tactics and operational command to make up for such short comings.

With AZ regiments, the T-59 II may fare better as a reinforcement for Armour Division to continue its operations. Terrain in upper punjab, lower Kashmir regions has limitations in manoeuvring, road networks are in place, lots of fields, population and houses, bridges etc. Ammunition type maybe a problem but operational capability of the regiment will remain.

There are minimum 16-17 Infantry divisions in PA that have one armour regiment atleast. That Minimum 750 tanks, probably around 900 if mechanised divisions are taken into account. That is where the T-59 and T-69 reside. They can keep pace with the slowly moving infantry advance and give awesome firepower with HE ammo. Enemy T-72 will be countered by PA infantry ATGM teams.

Using T-59 as a reserve tank, new formations can be raised e.g. in war time, raise a new Armoured brigade.

90 x T-59 MBT (2 Regiments)
Motorised infantry (Infantry in vehicles if M-113 and Talha are not in sufficient numbers)
Artillery (reserve 105mm guns)
AD Regiment.

FC is deployed on the eastern border. I am not sure how many T-59 are given to them but im hoping atleast one regiment worth of tanks to FC KPK and Baluchistan each.

Its upto PA to decide where to use T-59 II in combat in case of war:
1. A newly formed armoured brigade
2. Bring FC in combat with heavy weapons
3. Send it as reinforcements to depleted units.

@Ulla
As of 2015 HIT re-manufactured/upgraded 486 al-Zarrar tanks, but the Army has 1021 T-59s left (link). The good think about the AZ is that it is given an up-rated engine and new 125 mm gun. The latter should offer ordnance commonality with the AK and T-80UD, though I'm not sure how well the new engine (730 hp diesel) stacks up in the desert. For what it's worth, the engine (I believe) comes from KMDB in Ukraine, i.e. the same source for the 6TD-2 aboard the AK and T-80UD. So comparable cooling and output (relative to weight) should be plausible.

Overall, I agree with you, the AZ and T-59 would be best served supporting the infantry. It would be ideal if we could end up upgrading all of the T-59s to AZ. I imagine this would be cheaper than coming up with another flanking tank, which is what Turkey and Indonesia appear to be doing by developing the MMWT (link).
 
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Question: Why isn't HIT making efforts to enhance its capacity? The model should be the same as JF-17. Offer a technologically superior product at a lower price and people will buy. Use this money to further enhance capacity and perform R&D. An initial shot in the arm might be needed from the government.

My own philosophy is to keep the tanks agile and nimble, with first find, first kill capability in xWeather xTerrain. Ideally ATGMs would be countered by am indigenously produced world leading active protection. In as much as this ideal cannot be achieved, I am willing to compromise on agility and nimbleness to increase armor.

But then again I have never fought a tank battle! I think the army's current strategy will be highly influenced by the WoT - both it's aftermath, and it's lessons learnt. But I hope our planners will adopt a research oriented approach to onboarding the lessons learnt.
 
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T-59 design has limitations for modern combat now. There are three major points regrading this:

1. Ammunition storage capacity. Modern tanks have bigger hulls and bigger turrets.
2. Speed, related to engine up gradation. 50-55km/hr on road speed is less, offroad would be lesser.
3. Armor, related to engine up gradation. More armor will improve protection but further reduce speed.

If its used as a reserve or reinforcement tank, it will only fill in numbers to bring a battered armour regiment to its full strength during war but imagine using T-59 alongside AZ, AK and T-80. Dont you think it will be more of a burden on the regiment's role and capability?

AK and T-80 are used in the desert. They have the best available engines in the MBT inventory of PA. Speed is necessary in desert not for competitive racing with enemy tanks, but constant flanking on enemy sides, rear and weak points. Desert terrain gives flexibility of movement just like ships in the sea. Flanking requires covering extra distance and this distance sometimes needs to be covered in shortest duration possible to get all units aligned for an attack. If the commander waits and postpones the attack for the flank manoeuvring regiment to get into position, he may lose excellent opportunities.

Suppose, an AK regiment loses 22 AK's in 4 days of combat. Reinforcements are 12 T-59 II's from the reserves and 10 AK's either from Division reserve or acquired from reserves of any other formation. First, the CO will have a headache of asking QM and ordnance units for 105mm ammo.Then his Ops planning will suffer as how to deploy a slow and a fast tank. Getting a trained crew wont be a problem as almost every armour soldier is trained on T-59 and sometimes crew comes with the tank from other regiments. In defensive position, it will be fine. Let the enemy come close and flank the enemy from side or take enemy head on. The problem comes in offensive posture for which his regiment has been training with AK's. His offensive punch will still be the remaining AK's. The T-59 II's will not be able to keep up.

Oplot, Type-99 .....any modern MBT that can compliment AK and T-80 in desert is welcome.

There is another problem that IA regiments most probably are larger in quantity of tanks. Pakistan has 44 tanks, India has 59 tanks in a regiment. Maybe an indian member can confirm this. IA Armoured divisions have more regiments probably 7 whereas Pakistan has 5. Quality of PA tanks maybe better but quantity is a big issue. Hoping on tactics and operational command to make up for such short comings.

With AZ regiments, the T-59 II may fare better as a reinforcement for Armour Division to continue its operations. Terrain in upper punjab, lower Kashmir regions has limitations in manoeuvring, road networks are in place, lots of fields, population and houses, bridges etc. Ammunition type maybe a problem but operational capability of the regiment will remain.

There are minimum 16-17 Infantry divisions in PA that have one armour regiment atleast. That Minimum 750 tanks, probably around 900 if mechanised divisions are taken into account. That is where the T-59 and T-69 reside. They can keep pace with the slowly moving infantry advance and give awesome firepower with HE ammo. Enemy T-72 will be countered by PA infantry ATGM teams.

Using T-59 as a reserve tank, new formations can be raised e.g. in war time, raise a new Armoured brigade.

90 x T-59 MBT (2 Regiments)
Motorised infantry (Infantry in vehicles if M-113 and Talha are not in sufficient numbers)
Artillery (reserve 105mm guns)
AD Regiment.

FC is deployed on the eastern border. I am not sure how many T-59 are given to them but im hoping atleast one regiment worth of tanks to FC KPK and Baluchistan each.

Its upto PA to decide where to use T-59 II in combat in case of war:
1. A newly formed armoured brigade
2. Bring FC in combat with heavy weapons
3. Send it as reinforcements to depleted units.

@Ulla

I agree on every line what you have written, my thoughts to that topic:

Offensive Operation against Indian quantity and quality still possible?

That's a good summary of the Pakistan Tank Corps. I think the top General leadership knows very well the lack of the offensive options. For defensive operations, the Pakistan Tank Corps is very well equipped and can hold his own ground, but how many AK and T-80UDs (current inventory 300 T-80UD ca. 300-400 Aks) we would need to penetrate the Indian territory and get an overhand in the battle? At the moment we are facing ca. 1400 Indian T-90s and ca. 1300 Indian T-72s (already upgraded) is not an easy task to overwhelm such a big force.

400 AK+300 T-80UD =700 v.s 1500 T-90=1:2 is not a bad match for a defensive Force.


T-85IIM and T-59IIM:
But you have forgotten to mention the T-85IIMP, I see a huge potential to upgrade this fleet to the AK-Standard. As you have described, I support your idea to integrate the T-59IIM in mechanized and FC Divisions, close fire support for the Troops and protection for the M-113 is a great deal in one cheap and economical package with the T-59IIM. By the way, many T-59IIMP are also upgraded with a 125mm gun.


ca. 750 Al-Zarrar + 250 T-85IIMP upgraded nearly to the Al-Zarrar standard vs. 1100 T-72M = also a ratio of 1:2, is absolutely fine for a defensive Force.


The Alkhalid, is here but in low numbers:
What I had read and heard from Members of the Army, is that during the Zardari Period, HIT had very fewer funds to upgrade and produce more Tanks, we have lost ca. 5-6 years. I did hear that, at some times, the factories even did not have electricity, of course, now the situation has changed, and they continued the program with AK-1 and Maybe AK-2. But still too slow and in low numbers, if we compare it to the Indian MBT inventory.


T-85IIM ca. 2002
a-goods-train-carrying-pakistan-military-tanks-passes-hyderabad-railway-h0dgmf.jpg


The Al-Zarrar ca. 2002


epa000276957-pakistani-soldiers-stand-in-line-next-to-tank-al-khalid-FEWRRN.jpg



Bottom line:
In my opinion, we have lost our technical superiority for the offensive operations (time is over where our numbers of AK and T-80UDs was bigger or equal to the Indian T-90S). As you already said: Oplot would be the best Option because it's built on the T-80 series, we already have the infrastructure, maintenance and supply structure for this Tank. If we want to gain success with our Strike Corps, we need more T-80UDs and AK-1s or the Oplot. But can we afford that with our current economical situation and the low budget?


On the other hand:
Tanks can't feed our folk, let Indians waste their resource in an arms race, we can hold the ground in the Future with our current inventory. The economy is now the key to success! What does help Tanks, when we can't control the floods, can't deliver clean drinking water to the mass of people, can't deliver electricity, no standard education for everyone, no future plans for climate change and water shortage.... I hope India is wasting more billions of Dollars in Tanks and Rockets, one day they will realize how fine the life is on the other side of the Border, where clean water and air are a standard and not a demand!
 
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