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PAKISTAN MAY NEGOTIATE WITH UKRAINE FOR 100 OPLOT-M MAIN BATTLE TANKS

Hello all.
PA need 2500+ Tanks (minimum) to keep defensive and some sort of offensive capability , We can not match IA with TANK for TANK , Best solution is to have modern Eqm.
AK is and will be back born and we will see (hope fully) many more AK series production , But only having 2500+ AKs , not a great Idea , its not even sound that good.
For that reason AH will join AK , PA need Tanks weight around 49t to 51t MAX, In modern ATGM and other systems(IA Tanks) we can not use Lighter Tank against IA.
AH will bring the new tech (more advance armament , Advance systems) with it , and This will also help AK program in future . Both (may be) will shear same engine and some other Tch , Both will have great HP/T ratio.
AH (Oplot or VT-300) will replace all older Tanks like T6x , Type 59G , Type 85 , Only AZ will stay in-service for few more years with upgraded T-80UDs.
For Heavy Tank , PA may buy of the shelf 55T+ Tank , Max 250 just for desert area to counter IA cold or hot start ,
In very short against IA 5000+ Tanks PA will have 2500 to 2700 Tanks and PA trying to have modern 50T+ tanks with some 55T+ tanks , (AZ not against T90s and upgraded T-72s) .
AK all versions 1000
AH all versions 1000
T-80UD 320
55T+ Tank 350
_______________________
Total 2670
Just Add 500 AZ in that so Grand total will come out 3170 Tanks . Less in number (The number gape will always stay) but Advance in Tch , Armament , Protection and extremely lethal , fast.
Thank you all
:-)

Yaar i like your plannings :-)
 
:D:p: . hahahaha . ;):enjoy:
Having always MBT and 40+ tanks to counter the enemy is never best answer. ATGMS can and will also be deadly against these 40+ ton tanks which are larger in size as compared to lighter tanks. Lighter tanks are perfect for ambush and flanking enemy positions, tanks are good for front line war breaking barriers from the front. Light tanks have faster acceleration and response of turret can be exceptional using Recoil less guns on the turret for ambushing and attacking enemy light mechanized forces and buildings. In Urban warfare sending Bradley IFV or 50 to 75mm equipped light bored cannons on wheeled/tracked armor vehicles both are more effective to fight inside city surrounded by buildings. For cold start type attack also reason is these lightly armored vehicles are cheaper and can be produced in bulk equipped with atgms to fight along side tanks is more favorable.

US forces have proved that a combined task force which includes from light to medium to heavy armored vehicles is best combination than sending only single type of class.

I hope you get the point.
 
Having always MBT and 40+ tanks to counter the enemy is never best answer. ATGMS can and will also be deadly against these 40+ ton tanks which are larger in size as compared to lighter tanks.
MBT is the main offensive weapon for any Ground force. MBT has protection systems against ATGM teams and there are ways to counter and neutralise enemy ATGM teams. ATGM has not made MBT obsolete. Almost every ground force in the world which can afford an MBT inducts it.

Lighter tanks are perfect for ambush and flanking enemy positions, tanks are good for front line war breaking barriers from the front. Light tanks have faster acceleration and response of turret can be exceptional using Recoil less guns on the turret for ambushing and attacking enemy light mechanized forces and buildings.
Light tanks and an MBT which is lighter in weight when compared to heavier MBT's ....are two different platforms.

Light tanks have recon and sometimes convoy escort roles where threat is not monumental. Light tank is not expected to counter MBT's but can sometimes carry a heavier cannon like 105mm. An example of light tank could be PL-01, British Scorpion, PT-76 etc. Wheeled Armoured vehicles like Stryker etc are coming up and taking the role away from Light tanks.
In weight category, PL-01 is 30 to 35 Tonnes but its called a light tank. Others are 20 Tonnes or lighter. Interestingly, T-55 MBT was 36 Tonnes when it was inducted, later up gradations made it heavier.

MBT which is lighter in weight compared to other MBT's , still retains the role of an MBT and its role cannot be replaced by a Light tank. AK is not a light tank but a lighter MBT. An MBT is used for recon only when it will be encountering threats which a Light armoured vehicle or recon vehicle or light tank cannot counter easily, but this is rare.

In Pakistan Army, its usually MBT and APC filling in two distinctly separate roles, where light 4x4 can fulfill the recon duty along with helis.

In Urban warfare sending Bradley IFV or 50 to 75mm equipped light bored cannons on wheeled/tracked armor vehicles both are more effective to fight inside city surrounded by buildings. For cold start type attack also reason is these lightly armored vehicles are cheaper and can be produced in bulk equipped with atgms to fight along side tanks is more favorable.
M2 Bradley was replaced by MRAPs as Bradley fell easily to IED's, RPG's, ambushes etc. A 25mm/30mm/40mm cannon or even a bigger cannon like 105mm can bring a wall down. Depends also if HE or AP is used. Ofcourse smaller calibre may use more rounds.

Sending an MRAP to fight in a built up area like city is probably a good idea than sending an MBT or IFV.
1.The carried personnel and crew are expected to survive the hits and ambushes,
2.its cheaper to produce and operate as its mostly wheeled,
3. it has good on road speeds where it will be operating
4. still carries a decent cannon for fire support.
5.The personnel it carries can dismount and use indirect firing weapons like mortars to engage NLOS targets.
US forces have proved that a combined task force which includes from light to medium to heavy armored vehicles is best combination than sending only single type of class.

I hope you get the point.

Its observed in recent excercises that PA also practices using this combo of MBT, APC, SP Guns, Air Defence and Gunships.
 
MBT is the main offensive weapon for any Ground force. MBT has protection systems against ATGM teams and there are ways to counter and neutralise enemy ATGM teams. ATGM has not made MBT obsolete. Almost every ground force in the world which can afford an MBT inducts it.


Light tanks and an MBT which is lighter in weight when compared to heavier MBT's ....are two different platforms.

Light tanks have recon and sometimes convoy escort roles where threat is not monumental. Light tank is not expected to counter MBT's but can sometimes carry a heavier cannon like 105mm. An example of light tank could be PL-01, British Scorpion, PT-76 etc. Wheeled Armoured vehicles like Stryker etc are coming up and taking the role away from Light tanks.
In weight category, PL-01 is 30 to 35 Tonnes but its called a light tank. Others are 20 Tonnes or lighter. Interestingly, T-55 MBT was 36 Tonnes when it was inducted, later up gradations made it heavier.

MBT which is lighter in weight compared to other MBT's , still retains the role of an MBT and its role cannot be replaced by a Light tank. AK is not a light tank but a lighter MBT. An MBT is used for recon only when it will be encountering threats which a Light armoured vehicle or recon vehicle or light tank cannot counter easily, but this is rare.

In Pakistan Army, its usually MBT and APC filling in two distinctly separate roles, where light 4x4 can fulfill the recon duty along with helis.


M2 Bradley was replaced by MRAPs as Bradley fell easily to IED's, RPG's, ambushes etc. A 25mm/30mm/40mm cannon or even a bigger cannon like 105mm can bring a wall down. Depends also if HE or AP is used. Ofcourse smaller calibre may use more rounds.

Sending an MRAP to fight in a built up area like city is probably a good idea than sending an MBT or IFV.
1.The carried personnel and crew are expected to survive the hits and ambushes,
2.its cheaper to produce and operate as its mostly wheeled,
3. it has good on road speeds where it will be operating
4. still carries a decent cannon for fire support.
5.The personnel it carries can dismount and use indirect firing weapons like mortars to engage NLOS targets.


Its observed in recent excercises that PA also practices using this combo of MBT, APC, SP Guns, Air Defence and Gunships.
I never said obsolete. the point here was made by the guy to whom I quoted named chacha. That is
"In modern ATGM and other systems(IA Tanks) we can not use Lighter Tank against IA."
To that I said. Saying IED's made bradley ineffective is completely same as saying Mines make tanks ineffective. IED's in Military wars are less of a threat. There will be face to face battles. Bradley's du round of 25mm easily penetrated most of iraqi tanks from rear and sides. also had some kills against them. Light tanks can be used against MBT if they are equipped with ATGM's or 105 is also good against side and rear armor.

Why are you saying that light tanks and mbts are different platform ? did I said that they are same ?

thats the point that 25mm, 40 or higher can bring wall down, why send heavy forces when light forces can do the job against light infantry inside buildings.

using combo is what I am making the point. but apparently our forces still lack IFV and low caliber systems.

AK is not light mbt but medium to heavy mbt. 47 tonnes while most of heavy mbt lie within 55tons m1 and leopard are super heavy
 
Hello all.
PA need 2500+ Tanks (minimum) to keep defensive and some sort of offensive capability , We can not match IA with TANK for TANK , Best solution is to have modern Eqm.
AK is and will be back born and we will see (hope fully) many more AK series production , But only having 2500+ AKs , not a great Idea , its not even sound that good.
For that reason AH will join AK , PA need Tanks weight around 49t to 51t MAX, In modern ATGM and other systems(IA Tanks) we can not use Lighter Tank against IA.
AH will bring the new tech (more advance armament , Advance systems) with it , and This will also help AK program in future . Both (may be) will shear same engine and some other Tch , Both will have great HP/T ratio.
AH (Oplot or VT-300) will replace all older Tanks like T6x , Type 59G , Type 85 , Only AZ will stay in-service for few more years with upgraded T-80UDs.
For Heavy Tank , PA may buy of the shelf 55T+ Tank , Max 250 just for desert area to counter IA cold or hot start ,
In very short against IA 5000+ Tanks PA will have 2500 to 2700 Tanks and PA trying to have modern 50T+ tanks with some 55T+ tanks , (AZ not against T90s and upgraded T-72s) .
AK all versions 1000
AH all versions 1000
T-80UD 320
55T+ Tank 350
_______________________
Total 2670
Just Add 500 AZ in that so Grand total will come out 3170 Tanks . Less in number (The number gape will always stay) but Advance in Tch , Armament , Protection and extremely lethal , fast.
Thank you all


Current Inventory:
800 Al-Khalid Tank (all versions)
320 T-80UD Tanks
600 Al-Zarrar Tanks
300 Type 85-IIAP
1200 Type-69/63/59 (Need to be replaced by Al-Khalid 2 and Al-Haider tank)
Total: 3,220

additional Requirement:
600 Al-Khalid 2 Tanks
1000 Al-Haider Tanks (Oplot or VT-300)
500 Advance Lighter and more agile Tank (Something closer to PL-01)
Upgrading remaining Type-59 to Al-Zarrar II Tank
 
Current Inventory:
800 Al-Khalid Tank (all versions)
320 T-80UD Tanks
600 Al-Zarrar Tanks
300 Type 85-IIAP
1200 Type-69/63/59 (Need to be replaced by Al-Khalid 2 and Al-Haider tank)
Total: 3,220

additional Requirement:
600 Al-Khalid 2 Tanks
1000 Al-Haider Tanks (Oplot or VT-300)
500 Advance Lighter and more agile Tank (Something closer to PL-01)
Upgrading remaining Type-59 to Al-Zarrar II Tank
300 Type 85-IIAP 1200 Type-69/63/59 should either upgraded to alzarar until the alkhalid or haider arraived or convert it as heavy track IFV with at least 4 ATGM .
 
Current Inventory:
800 Al-Khalid Tank (all versions)
320 T-80UD Tanks
600 Al-Zarrar Tanks
300 Type 85-IIAP
1200 Type-69/63/59 (Need to be replaced by Al-Khalid 2 and Al-Haider tank)
Total: 3,220
are you sure AK is 800 in numbers?

Type-59/69 cannot be 1200, as AZ upgrade was applied on these tanks. AZ isnt a new inducted tank.

300 Type 85-IIAP 1200 Type-69/63/59 should either upgraded to alzarar until the alkhalid or haider arraived or convert it as heavy track IFV with at least 4 ATGM .

MBTs are already short in numbers. The older ones are being given to FC. APC will be Talha/M-113 or the wheeled Hamza.

I never said obsolete. the point here was made by the guy to whom I quoted named chacha. That is
"In modern ATGM and other systems(IA Tanks) we can not use Lighter Tank against IA."
To that I said. Saying IED's made bradley ineffective is completely same as saying Mines make tanks ineffective. IED's in Military wars are less of a threat. There will be face to face battles. Bradley's du round of 25mm easily penetrated most of iraqi tanks from rear and sides. also had some kills against them. Light tanks can be used against MBT if they are equipped with ATGM's or 105 is also good against side and rear armor.

Why are you saying that light tanks and mbts are different platform ? did I said that they are same ?

thats the point that 25mm, 40 or higher can bring wall down, why send heavy forces when light forces can do the job against light infantry inside buildings.

using combo is what I am making the point. but apparently our forces still lack IFV and low caliber systems.

AK is not light mbt but medium to heavy mbt. 47 tonnes while most of heavy mbt lie within 55tons m1 and leopard are super heavy
M2 Bradley had its own set of problems in COIN and MRAPs are a preferred platform.
Light tanks are surviving because of air transport capability and can operate well in certain terrain. In India Pak scenario the MBT weight is increasing.

105mm was used in COIN because the MBT had better protection and punch. 25mm wasnt available.

light, medium, heavy, super heavy is not my categorisation.
 
Al-Khalid will be Upgraded to Al-Khalid II

Al-Haider wil replace old Tanks like Type-6X
Type 69 means a lot for PA.

I thought they said the price tag of VT4 is not cheap.i still remember China provided type 69 tanks to Pakistan when Pakistan had war with India in 1971 per Pakistan request(Pakistan tanks stock runed nearly empty), most of those type 69 delivered to Pakistan was brand new induction in PLA Arsenal.the only country willing to provide tanks when Pakistan hanged by a thread is China. Those Oplot is good looking, but you know what I mean. Maybe Ukranian willing to provide TOT? I don't know.

But now Pakistan already has the ability to produce Al Khalid on his own. So there will be not a problem which tank it induct for Al Haider.

All the best!
 
are you sure AK is 800 in numbers?
Confirmed numbers of AK (all versions) produced so far is 320. Some PDF members suggest that roughly 450 are produced so far.

.i still remember China provided type 69 tanks to Pakistan when Pakistan had war with India in 1971 per Pakistan request(Pakistan tanks stock runed nearly empty), most of those type 69 delivered to Pakistan was brand new induction in PLA Arsenal.the only country willing to provide tanks when Pakistan hanged by a thread is China
Type-59/69 cannot be 1200, as AZ upgrade was applied on these tanks. AZ isnt a new inducted tank.

There were times when we had them as many as 1500. 600 converted to Al Zarrar, some returned back,some moved to reserves, most stayed. We should be having 320, 320 each of T59/69 still in army which IMO should be given to FC or move to reserves once replacement will become available.

. The older ones are being given to FC

Do you have any info that how many T59 were given to FC?

Current Inventory:
800 Al-Khalid Tank (all versions)
320 T-80UD Tanks
600 Al-Zarrar Tanks
300 Type 85-IIAP
1200 Type-69/63/59 (Need to be replaced by Al-Khalid 2 and Al-Haider tank)
Total: 3,220

additional Requirement:
600 Al-Khalid 2 Tanks
1000 Al-Haider Tanks (Oplot or VT-300)
500 Advance Lighter and more agile Tank (Something closer to PL-01)
Upgrading remaining Type-59 to Al-Zarrar II Tank

320 Al Khalid is confirm number. 450 is Rumored Number.

Numbers must have decreased by now. Perhaps 600 of them are still around in army.

300 AK2 and 300 Al Haider. Remember these tanks are not new additions but replacement of old ones. PA has enough numbers of Tanks already and it need to focus on ''Quality'' factor bcoz this is what India is doing.

And we don't need light tanks. Upgradation of T59/69 tanks to AZ standard is not in plans as far as I know. Bcoz after a decade, AZ & T85 will be too obsolete to fight against armor. You don't spend millions of $ on 600 Tanks for making them use full for next decade only.
 
Confirmed numbers of AK (all versions) produced so far is 320. Some PDF members suggest that roughly 450 are produced so far.




There were times when we had them as many as 1500. 600 converted to Al Zarrar, some returned back,some moved to reserves, most stayed. We should be having 320, 320 each of T59/69 still in army which IMO should be given to FC or move to reserves once replacement will become available.



Do you have any info that how many T59 were given to FC?



320 Al Khalid is confirm number. 450 is Rumored Number.

Numbers must have decreased by now. Perhaps 600 of them are still around in army.

300 AK2 and 300 Al Haider. Remember these tanks are not new additions but replacement of old ones. PA has enough numbers of Tanks already and it need to focus on ''Quality'' factor bcoz this is what India is doing.

And we don't need light tanks. Upgradation of T59/69 tanks to AZ standard is not in plans as far as I know. Bcoz after a decade, AZ & T85 will be too obsolete to fight against armor. You don't spend millions of $ on 600 Tanks for making them use full for next decade only.

Al khalid are close to 800 based on my calculation. We had 320+ back in 2007- 2008.
 
We had 320+ back in 2007- 2008
We had 320 Back in 2013 as mentioned by Officials in IDEAS.
Only two Al Khalid were produced in 2015. Total target was to produce 600 of them by 2019 which suffered due to economic constrains.
 
Confirmed numbers of AK (all versions) produced so far is 320. Some PDF members suggest that roughly 450 are produced so far.




There were times when we had them as many as 1500. 600 converted to Al Zarrar, some returned back,some moved to reserves, most stayed. We should be having 320, 320 each of T59/69 still in army which IMO should be given to FC or move to reserves once replacement will become available.



Do you have any info that how many T59 were given to FC?



320 Al Khalid is confirm number. 450 is Rumored Number.

Numbers must have decreased by now. Perhaps 600 of them are still around in army.

300 AK2 and 300 Al Haider. Remember these tanks are not new additions but replacement of old ones. PA has enough numbers of Tanks already and it need to focus on ''Quality'' factor bcoz this is what India is doing.

And we don't need light tanks. Upgradation of T59/69 tanks to AZ standard is not in plans as far as I know. Bcoz after a decade, AZ & T85 will be too obsolete to fight against armor. You don't spend millions of $ on 600 Tanks for making them use full for next decade only.

450 number + 50 on order were confirmed by MODP 2014.. Not rumours.

We had 320 Back in 2013 as mentioned by Officials in IDEAS.
Only two Al Khalid were produced in 2015. Total target was to produce 600 of them by 2019 which suffered due to economic constrains.

Do some research .. You will find Ministry of defence production report.

600 by 2019..:rofl:


By next year AK-II probably will be revealed ... Even that has been confirmed by HIT...

1500 HP engine,more armour and self protection gizmos ...

Type 69 means a lot for PA.

I thought they said the price tag of VT4 is not cheap.i still remember China provided type 69 tanks to Pakistan when Pakistan had war with India in 1971 per Pakistan request(Pakistan tanks stock runed nearly empty), most of those type 69 delivered to Pakistan was brand new induction in PLA Arsenal.the only country willing to provide tanks when Pakistan hanged by a thread is China. Those Oplot is good looking, but you know what I mean. Maybe Ukranian willing to provide TOT? I don't know.

But now Pakistan already has the ability to produce Al Khalid on his own. So there will be not a problem which tank it induct for Al Haider.

All the best!

Type 69 is obsolete ..

VT-4 doesn't offer much advantage of AK.. Apart from slightly better protection.. With its additional modular armour.

It competed against Oplot M to require a tender .. Don't know about the results but it was to augment our fleet ... While AK-II comes online .. Which will be our workhorse...

I'd think Oplot M makes more sense .. Because not just a great tank but since Pak operates 325 T-80UDs .. Which share similarities with the Oplot (and can be upgraded to Oplots capability)... Hence inducting it would make sense ...
 
450 number + 50 on order were confirmed by MODP 2014.. Not rumours.



Do some research .. You will find Ministry of defence production report.

600 by 2019..:rofl:


By next year AK-II probably will be revealed ... Even that has been confirmed by HIT...

1500 HP engine,more armour and self protection gizmos ...



Type 69 is obsolete ..

VT-4 doesn't offer such advantage of AK..

It competed against Oplot M to require a tender .. Don't know about the results but it was to augment our fleet ... While AK-II comes online .. Which will be our workhorse...

I'd think Oplot M makes more sense .. Because not just a great tank but since Pak operates 325 T-80UDs .. Which share similarities with the Oplot (and can be upgraded to Oplots capability)... Hence inducting it would make sense ...
What the is the price of Oplots offered to PA?
 

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