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Pakistan likely to buy China’s Z-10 Thunderbolt attack helicopters

WZ-10
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It looks quite nice and powerfull. If China has aopted it for its army, why not Pakistan, for at least a squadron for training while wating for the JV with Turkey or US Cobras which both have and will have some strings attached.


Well this load out, with brand new engines and avionics (with future room to upgrade easily), this heli doesn't look bad at all. If I was in Pakistan's shoes and I could locally assemble this (or get TOT if lucky), I'd pick this bird. No need to spend so much money externally if you can build internally as a JV.

But If the US provides PA with Super Vipers, that that's worth it as it'll be financed through the FMS. Which obviously is a much cheaper option for one of the best combat choppers out there. But if that's not the case, I'd go domestic if possible, saving a lot of $$.

The 3 Helicopters would give good usage to Pakistan Army , once thet taste the HIGH END Chinese Technology they will dump the crappy Cobra platform

Allow me to assure you that the "high end technology option" still belongs to the US / West and will be so for the next 2 decades at the least. There is a reason why Pakistan hasn't signed for T-129 or for Z series. They are waiting to get a yes or no on the Vipers. These 3 are also being used as an evaluation platform. Not a real deal yet. Another stop gap is the MI-28's. There is a reason for all these stop-gap measured. The PA knows what's the best and higher tech and quality option out there and it still is the Super Viper (or the Apache's which the US may not provide to Pakistan right now).
 
Allow me to assure you that the "high end technology option" still belongs to the US / West and will be so for the next 2 decades at the least. There is a reason why Pakistan hasn't signed for T-129 or for Z series. They are waiting to get a yes or no on the Vipers. These 3 are also being used as an evaluation platform. Not a real deal yet. Another stop gap is the MI-28's. There is a reason for all these stop-gap measured. The PA knows what's the best and higher tech and quality option out there and it still is the Super Viper (or the Apache's which the US may not provide to Pakistan right now).

Quantity some times has it own quality, mostly in cases of strings attached and irrational decisions; Pakistan has been an all weather US ally for a very long time and paying for it very dearly, be it militarily or economically. This is just beyond any logic the US can come up with to hold on to some needed weapons for Pakistan, it is not like if they were asking for the F-22 here, it is just a few helicopters and probably some few more F-16s, it should not be much for a "friend"...

I'll join you in your thought about ToT for the Z series, since having 50 of them will outmatch by far any dozen super viper, in any kind of mission or even a dozen Apaches.
 
Breaking news , India shows its displeasure at the change in balance of power in region
 
Quantity some times has it own quality, mostly in cases of strings attached and irrational decisions; Pakistan has been an all weather US ally for a very long time and paying for it very dearly, be it militarily or economically. This is just beyond any logic the US can come up with to hold on to some needed weapons for Pakistan, it is not like if they were asking for the F-22 here, it is just a few helicopters and probably some few more F-16s, it should not be much for a "friend"....

You are making the same mistake like many or majority of Pakistanis make. I don't think the US would ever say no to a request for weapons purchase (outside of sensitive stuff like you said, Apaches, F-22, F-35, etc). However, the string come in due to the US laws as these are product built by the US.

Plus, you have to see how these items are being requested for purchase also, are these being requested under FMS? Which then has its own strict criteria and US laws that are applicable on it. Or are these being requested on a cash offer for used Super Vipers? Which still means getting used Super Vipers for like 40% of the price (a big bargain in my opinion). How these items are being requested for purchase will have a huge role in this entire process IMO.
 
Breaking news , India shows its displeasure at the change in balance of power in region
What's the purpose of this post? There's zero truth behind it.

You think 3 Z-10s (if they are even coming) will change the balance of power between India and Pakistan??
 
You are making the same mistake like many or majority of Pakistanis make. I don't think the US would ever say no to a request for weapons purchase (outside of sensitive stuff like you said, Apaches, F-22, F-35, etc). However, the string come in due to the US laws as these are product built by the US.

Plus, you have to see how these items are being requested for purchase also, are these being requested under FMS? Which then has its own strict criteria and US laws that are applicable on it. Or are these being requested on a cash offer for used Super Vipers? Which still means getting used Super Vipers for like 40% of the price (a big bargain in my opinion). How these items are being requested for purchase will have a huge role in this entire process IMO.
I am not making any mistakes as you perceive my opinion, I am just stating that under any US sales conditions or Pakistani requests, these platforms should have already be delivered to Pakistan, be it just for all the hardship the latter went and still going through for supporting the US policies in the region. I hope you understand what I mean, since most of these needs were created by the US invasion of Afghanistan and it aftermath that Pakistan is still struggling with. Otherwise anyone can see that the Pakistanis are being objective and pragmatic in procuring and self making defense products they need for normal circumstances.
 
As I now in a library, I can now reply better

The reason why PA cannot effectively use Z-10 or T/A-129 now is because of the craft itself. It doesn't matter if China or Turkey offer their chopper for free, even free stuff have a price tag and the maintenance cost would far outspend the existing Infrastructure in place with the Cobras.

When PA have substantial knowledge on how to upkeep a cobra better than going for a new system, where you literally start from Zero. You will have to send teams of mechanic and pilot to China and Turkey to train with the platform, then they will have to come back to Pakistan and teach the local PA mechanic and pilot on how to operate and maintain the craft. Without regarding the time to build up their efficiency to the Cobra level, the training regime alone would take 1 to 2 years time. Helicopter did not grow on tree, you can't make 50 or 100 helicopter in a year or any short period of time. Especially when China and Turkey are fielding both Helicopter themselves, you can understand they won't try to field Pakistan first instead set their own stock as their priority. All in the while PA would still need to wait for the T-129 and Z-10 to deliver, as they are new system, that mean you are simply gotta go with initial low production, which most likely ended up using them in training only, so you are talking about maybe 10-20 Z-10 or T-129 for the first few years and you still have to get proficiency with them. and that number is already very generous.

On the other hand, AH-1W is an old platform, that mean they are ready built, and the PA crew were trained substantially in them already, literally you can fill in the gas and you can go. (Well, I know it's not that simple) Where the accessories, armament and crew are already in place, basically, it would be fit in your old stock just like that. The only time you wait is for the US to ship them to you. That's it.

Another major problem you can see is the doctrine. AH-1 Built with US doctrine in mind, it was an American Helicopter, and they build on behalf of their own Combat doctrine regarding helicopter gunship. So when Pakistan Army use the AH-1, they don't just bought the system, they bought the US Gunship doctrine as well.

AH-1 and AH-64 is different than most Attack Helicopter there are in the market, they are not better or worse, just different, this is because US have a different doctrine using helicopter gunship than the rest of the world. Now the reason why Cobra works in Pakistan is because the situation in Pakistan is a bit similar than what the US expected during cold war, facing a massive enemy with a lot of tanks. In US doctrine, when you are facing a lot of tanks, you first ram your helicopter in the fray, and interdict the enemy column by taking out their leads(Commands), comms and ammo and fuel vehicle, then you left them stun, and you assault the enemy using your own armour and mechanized infantry to fill the gap between your armoured.

In order to perform what I just said, you will need two things, 1.) A tank that's more advance than your foes, and 2.) A helicopter gunship that you can use as a scout. What ticks the US Gunship is they are also scouts (Or in layman term, Light Attack Helicopter) in the old days, the US uses AH-6 Little bird with UH-60 Blackhawk and OH-58 Kiowa with Ah-64 Apache or AH-1 Cobra team to do the work, but today as the Kiowa retired, the US Army were left with Apache alone to scout the enemy, that's why the longbow system worth their money.

Now, other country have a doctrine to use their helicopter only to support their armour, what they essentially do is, they would ram their tanks in first, then fly their gunship using their tank to provide target coordination, essentially becoming the shooter of an armoured assault.

Now, if PA want to change from using AH-1 to T-129 or Z-10, then they will also need to change their way of forward thinking and doctrine development. They would have to move away from localised fight with standalone helicopter instead they would need to build a larger armour force and possible better AWAC system to compensate the lost of scouting ability from the Cobra. And that is not gonna do in just 1 or 2 years, not even maybe 5 years, and PA needed gunship now.

but hey, what do I know? According to @Keel, I am just a dude who is ignorant about military, law and geopolitics and maybe a private mopping floor and that's much about all I do in the military LoL :)

@DESERT FIGHTER @Thəorətic Muslim
 
3 Helicopters would be loaded

120 - Rockets vs Ground Targets and Tanks
6 Air to Air Missiles
15 Other rockets

Looks pretty good deal to start

Cheque please
 
As I now in a library, I can now reply better

The reason why PA cannot effectively use Z-10 or T/A-129 now is because of the craft itself. It doesn't matter if China or Turkey offer their chopper for free, even free stuff have a price tag and the maintenance cost would far outspend the existing Infrastructure in place with the Cobras.

When PA have substantial knowledge on how to upkeep a cobra better than going for a new system, where you literally start from Zero. You will have to send teams of mechanic and pilot to China and Turkey to train with the platform, then they will have to come back to Pakistan and teach the local PA mechanic and pilot on how to operate and maintain the craft. Without regarding the time to build up their efficiency to the Cobra level, the training regime alone would take 1 to 2 years time. Helicopter did not grow on tree, you can't make 50 or 100 helicopter in a year or any short period of time. Especially when China and Turkey are fielding both Helicopter themselves, you can understand they won't try to field Pakistan first instead set their own stock as their priority. All in the while PA would still need to wait for the T-129 and Z-10 to deliver, as they are new system, that mean you are simply gotta go with initial low production, which most likely ended up using them in training only, so you are talking about maybe 10-20 Z-10 or T-129 for the first few years and you still have to get proficiency with them. and that number is already very generous.

On the other hand, AH-1W is an old platform, that mean they are ready built, and the PA crew were trained substantially in them already, literally you can fill in the gas and you can go. (Well, I know it's not that simple) Where the accessories, armament and crew are already in place, basically, it would be fit in your old stock just like that. The only time you wait is for the US to ship them to you. That's it.

Another major problem you can see is the doctrine. AH-1 Built with US doctrine in mind, it was an American Helicopter, and they build on behalf of their own Combat doctrine regarding helicopter gunship. So when Pakistan Army use the AH-1, they don't just bought the system, they bought the US Gunship doctrine as well.

AH-1 and AH-64 is different than most Attack Helicopter there are in the market, they are not better or worse, just different, this is because US have a different doctrine using helicopter gunship than the rest of the world. Now the reason why Cobra works in Pakistan is because the situation in Pakistan is a bit similar than what the US expected during cold war, facing a massive enemy with a lot of tanks. In US doctrine, when you are facing a lot of tanks, you first ram your helicopter in the fray, and interdict the enemy column by taking out their leads(Commands), comms and ammo and fuel vehicle, then you left them stun, and you assault the enemy using your own armour and mechanized infantry to fill the gap between your armoured.

In order to perform what I just said, you will need two things, 1.) A tank that's more advance than your foes, and 2.) A helicopter gunship that you can use as a scout. What ticks the US Gunship is they are also scouts (Or in layman term, Light Attack Helicopter) in the old days, the US uses AH-6 Little bird with UH-60 Blackhawk and OH-58 Kiowa with Ah-64 Apache or AH-1 Cobra team to do the work, but today as the Kiowa retired, the US Army were left with Apache alone to scout the enemy, that's why the longbow system worth their money.

Now, other country have a doctrine to use their helicopter only to support their armour, what they essentially do is, they would ram their tanks in first, then fly their gunship using their tank to provide target coordination, essentially becoming the shooter of an armoured assault.

Now, if PA want to change from using AH-1 to T-129 or Z-10, then they will also need to change their way of forward thinking and doctrine development. They would have to move away from localised fight with standalone helicopter instead they would need to build a larger armour force and possible better AWAC system to compensate the lost of scouting ability from the Cobra. And that is not gonna do in just 1 or 2 years, not even maybe 5 years, and PA needed gunship now.

but hey, what do I know? According to @Keel, I am just a dude who is ignorant about military, law and geopolitics and maybe a private mopping floor and that's much about all I do in the military LoL :)

@DESERT FIGHTER @Thəorətic Muslim

Hmmmmm....then its really cruel by US to force Pak to look for impossible options, I means by learning these facts and the current situation where US ignoring legitimate Pak needs in war on terror, its only sounds persistent showering of Salt by US on the wounds of Pakistanis....ordinary people on the streets rightly hate US...no doubt about it.
 
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@jhungary - what's the percentage of common components between AH-1F and AH-1Z.... Not much if any. So the advantages that you are talking about don't exist.
 
That is why China give us to make it battle proven. I think all three is free of cost, just to test the birds and China can do that

What makes you think China will give away 120 million USD just like this?
2013 Chinese investment world wide was 101 billion, of which Pakistan's share was measly 90 million.
Why sudden change of heart ?
 
^^^^ Exactly we should go for China at least they wont refuse for the spares like America did and Cobra are now crap falling out of the Skies... Turkey helis well they use American engine if they stop the supply of Engines T-129 in PA will end up like Cobra... Try WZ-10 if like it then go for it and we have options of Mi-28 also may be we should also but some of them like 15-20

Let check credibility for helicopter

US always put Pakistan on wall
Russia before any and after sell, goto India for explanation and during war times may impose sanction to please India
China always help us and by investing so much in advance technologies and integrated them in next 10 to 15 years China will be in top two.

Bottom line: one word China
 
Pakistan interested to buy China’s Z 10 helicopters

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan’s closest friend China is expected to give another gift this year in shape of their famous helicopter Z10.

According to reports, Three Z10 helicopters are expected to be included in Pakistan Army aviation fleet, which will be helpful in cleaning the terrorism in the county.

Pakistan shown interest in purchasing Z10 helicopters, sources said.

The helicopter is capable of targeting the enemy with a range of 3 to 4 kilometers without coming in reader. It is also capable of targeting in the air as well as on ground from air.

With the induction of Z10, Pakistan Army’s capability of targeting the terrorists will increase. Pakistan is already using the helicopters effectively in the war against terrorism.

On the other hand Pakistan is also interested to by Russian’s Mi-30 helicopters as well. This will not only strengthen the defence of the country but also help force to counter-terrorism effectively.

Pakistan interested to by China's Z 10 helicopters | The News Tribe
 

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