Pakistan Keen To Purchase F-16 Fleet From Norway: Mukhtar

[MastanKhan]

Hi Aaamir,

That was a good post. I am going back and revert to my old stand----it wll take at least a minimum of 5 years to get the JF 17 to where the paf thinks that it has become a potent force---so around 2014---15 is the time frame that I presume that this aircraft begins to meet and exceed the standards of paf with a consistency on continuous basis.

For an operator of this system---first you have to be truthful to yourself---you operate, judge, analyze, tear it up and put it back a hundred times, put it through its paces and then some more, till you are satisfied with its operational capabilities, its trust level, its maintenance issues, its ups and downs. Your machine has to know, what you expect from it and and you have to learn what the machine expects from you. That is the limit that you can take the machine upto and the machine has to know as to how you maintain and nurse it.

This man and machine inteface / relationship is as joyful as a personal relationship. Ask a team of operators if they love their aircraft as much as thier spouses or more and that answer will surpirse many. For hardly a year now, we have one sqdrn in service----that is barely no time to see and determine the parameters of this aircraft. We have just begun to sratch the surface.

We will have to take these machines to their limits for them to fail---to determine how far and hard we can push them. For that, you need time. Now, for show---we still do need the numbers in operational sqdrns which will keep the production line moving at a higher pace.

The good thing is that as these aircraft are a replacement of an existing lineup of A5's, F7's and Mirages---we are lucky to have a trained and dedicated crew to train and take over the servicing, maintaining and oprating of this aircraft with a minimal effort---even though the crew will have to be in sync with newer technology, but they already have a good base and foundations to step upto the challenge.

Now, this same challenge maynot be as severe with the J10B / FC20's----for the reason that the it has already been tested and tried in the form of J10----.

But the bottomline is----F16 is still an extremely potent aircraft---.

 

[araz]

Thats not the case brother JF-17 have its own importance PAF purchase of old/new F-16s won't affect anything for example Egypt have 200 F-16s but they are potential customer of JF-17.
I love to see 100 F-16s in PAF fleet.

Egtypt is buying JFTs to acquire a BVR capable sanction free platform buit and developed in hyouse to free itself from USAs shyackles. It will mean thyat US will hyave to allow it to have BVRs in sufficient Nos.Whyats our excuse?
Araz

 

[araz]

In my opinion, the global market for JF-17 is as a replacement fighter platform for Mig 21/F-7 and F-5 users.

F-16 is in a different league at this point in time or at least till such time when the definitive version of JF 17 is on the market.

Agtreed totally. But hyten whyy not J10? Is thyere a problem withy thye plane or thye deal. Whichy is whyy I am question ingt thye veracity of thye deal.Also notice thye timingt of thye statement in ligthyt of Chyinese PM visit.
Araz

 

[Aamir Hussain]

I might be touching a raw nerve here when talking about the JF-17 and its capabilities -- we have the basic platform in hand -- that was the first step.

The pros are:

The basic airframe design is based upon late nineties technology definition versus late fifties and and sixties (Mig 21 & Mirages respectively). This is a leap by itself.

Room for assimilating newer technologies and systems. Both the other systems being flown have come to their end of life cycle both from war fighting capability but upgrades as well.

Cons -- We need to work upon these -- and this is how PAF designed it to come out.

Engine -- power plant is under powered and it reflects in the thrust to weight ratio as compared to the F-16.

Radar -- the hunt is on and we have the capability in the basic platform to absorb the newer radars.

Mission Computer - Most probably a reverse engineered F-16 A/B type capability. Has room for improvement and as far as I know it is being improved with each new upgrade (I do not know where the "Block" thing comes from for the Chinese fighters?)

Countermeasures: They need to be worked upon. As far as we know they are not on board as yet.

Weapons systems: The integration is well advanced and an ongoing thing as PAF is integrating a lot of new stuff from various sources.

The bottom line as see I it -- JF -17 is in the evolution stage (It has been unveiled prematurely to the general public -- it still had some basic issues to tackle) It will take atleast one year for operational squadrons to refine air to air combat capabilities/tactics of the bird -- and then I believe it will start going through designed/required major upgrades. The one year hands on experience will help PAF further modify the plane from operational perspective including ease of line maintenance, programing bugs in all aspects of mission envelope etc.

This is the life cycle of a fighter developed from ground up.

JF-17 is not designed to replace the F-16 but the MIG 21, and the assorted Mirages. It has the ability to take us into the next two decades with upgrades and remain the mainstay of our force.

Please remember, a typical fighter has a life cycle of 40 years from inception to start of end of life cycle. There are very few fighter aircraft that have not followed this process -- very few have beaten the curve -- F-16 was designed and first flew in the early seventies (I was in school then and we use read about the med and high fighter competition between the f-16 & F-15) - it took another five years before F-16 was inducted in large numbers. BTW it still has at least ten years left from the "Forty' year rule not counting the major structural changes and massive electronic upgrades.

JF-17 will get there -- we are just asking too much from a bird which was inducted after two years of the prototype being flown. PAF will get it right in the end.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Egtypt is buying JFTs to acquire a BVR capable sanction free platform buit and developed in hyouse to free itself from USAs shyackles. It will mean thyat US will hyave to allow it to have BVRs in sufficient Nos.Whyats our excuse?
Araz

I think Egypt is finally coming out of the cold and becoming more pragmatic. They do not have a hope of affording an all F-16/F-15 replacement for their aging Mig 21 force or a F-35 kind of platform.

To keep the bare min. squadrons flying, they need a more cost effective platform and some ToT with it to develop its own industry and the Sino Pak venture is a win - win for all -- the venture needs more partners (money) and Egypt needs a plane that it can help designed to its needs.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Agtreed totally. But hyten whyy not J10? Is thyere a problem withy thye plane or thye deal. Whichy is whyy I am question ingt thye veracity of thye deal.Also notice thye timingt of thye statement in ligthyt of Chyinese PM visit.
Araz

I think that J-10 needs a lot of changes and China is swamped with new projects in parallel. I think China is going for massive technology overdrive -- they can afford it. Before one plane comes of on a runway, we read about another program in parallel that is being worked upon on a similar type of platform and mission envelope.

Furthermore, I believe that J-10 is facing similar issues as JF-17 -- premature limelight. Power plant is an issue for export (Atleast to Pakistan) -- Fly by wire and mission computer would be an area that would require some more R&D. PAF has asked for more improvements and they will come in time but not anytime soon.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Don't forget that in many cases jf-17 is competing with mig-29, like in case of egypt ,and also if the news of Iran interested in jf-17 is also true then there too we will see competition from Russian makers as Iran was also identified a potential customer for Russian fighters as well.same was in case of Sri Lanka

For that we should have good image of jf-17 in the minds of possible future customers

I agree with your assumptions but do give some thought to this fact that not all air forces can equip all their squadrons with Mig -29/SU 30 etc. They will always go for a mix of high and med performance fighters (US did the same with F-16 and F-15). Iran would not be any different.

Since we are competing with India we tend to pitch JF-17 with SU 30 etc. It was never envisaged by PAF to be in that league. That is why PAF is looking around for a High end fighter. Until we get it, F-16 will remain the mainstay high end fighter.

There is also an issue of time lag/overlap. JF-17 will take at least couple of years to develop while the Mirage fleet is getting costlier to maintain and the mission worthiness of the f-7 fleet is fast dwindling therefore the hunt for new F-16, EDA F-16, & MLU's.

 

[fatman17]

Agtreed totally. But hyten whyy not J10? Is thyere a problem withy thye plane or thye deal. Whichy is whyy I am question ingt thye veracity of thye deal.Also notice thye timingt of thye statement in ligthyt of Chyinese PM visit.
Araz

da engine, chinese or russian for the FC-20!!!

 

[Aamir Hussain]

da engine, chinese or russian for the FC-20!!!

Originally the WS-10A (WoShan-10A) Taihang turbofan was to power the beast but development issues led to Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31FN turbofan being used.

However, WS-10 has started replacing Russian units which have reached end of life cycle.

 

[fatman17]

Originally the WS-10A (WoShan-10A) Taihang turbofan was to power the beast but development issues led to Russian Lyulka-Saturn AL-31FN turbofan being used. Hope this helps.

correct - china does not have a re-export agreement with russia for the AL-31 like it does for the RD-93 - it may in the foreseable future, but it is most likely that the FC-20 will be powered by a chinese engine by 2014-15.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Good points Aamir, but let me correct you on two points.

Engine -- power plant is under powered and it reflects in the thrust to weight ratio as compared to the F-16.

That is not true, the Russians provided PAF with upgraded RD93's with more thrust. The TWR of the JF17's is 1.1, anything over 1 is considered excellent. That is not to say that PAF should not look for an engine in the future with additional thrust but the notion that JF17 is under powered right now is not correct. Are you aware that JF17 has constantly beat the F16 in dog fights an area which the F16 is considered the King off, JF17 is more maneuverable but the F16 is more agile.

Countermeasures: They need to be worked upon. As far as we know they are not on board as yet.

JF17 has DAS, RWR, MAW along with a separate self protection jammer for defensive purposes. On the other hand it also has separate EW suites for offensive purposes, so in my opinion JF17 is quite well protected in the area of Electronic Warfare.

 

[Luftwaffe]

MastanKhan...we are lucky to have a trained and dedicated crew to train and take over the servicing, maintaining and operating of this aircraft with a minimal effort---even though the crew will have to be in sync with newer technology, but they already have a good base and foundations to step upto the challenge.

I've to let members know that I've talked to PAF engineer currently in Risalpur working with K-8s might get posted to either K-8s or JFTs. He told me that Now all engineering ground crews are retrained on computer based simulations essentially Engineering dept. This is a very positive move on part of PAF.

 

[MastanKhan]

I think that J-10 needs a lot of changes and China is swamped with new projects in parallel. I think China is going for massive technology overdrive -- they can afford it. Before one plane comes of on a runway, we read about another program in parallel that is being worked upon on a similar type of platform and mission envelope.

Furthermore, I believe that J-10 is facing similar issues as JF-17 -- premature limelight. Power plant is an issue for export (Atleast to Pakistan) -- Fly by wire and mission computer would be an area that would require some more R&D. PAF has asked for more improvements and they will come in time but not anytime soon.

Hi,

And for that particular reason, I believe that the chinese have split up the development of these two aircraft between pakistan and china---it gives an independant and extremely competitive edge in developing two different programs running in parallel between two airforces to get the best of the two air forces.

 

[MZUBAIR]

We should stay on the thread topic!!!!
The title in intresting...
Any other source that PAF want Norway F-16. Would USA have no objection on it?
Would Norway offer it b4 F35 came into production.
I dont think these are coming b4 2014 (If PAF would be intrested).
Who will leave the worlds most furious and potent AC (F16).

 

[monitor]

We should stay on the thread topic!!!!
The title in intresting...
Any other source that PAF want Norway F-16. Would USA have no objection on it?
Would Norway offer it b4 F35 came into production.
I dont think these are coming b4 2014 (If PAF would be intrested).
Who will leave the worlds most furious and potent AC (F16).

Even if it start coming around 2014 it will accompany the Paf with FC-20 and i think just with any necessary upgrade it can directly induct into Paf fleet as already Paf is using this beast . but JF-17 might have a bright future but still a child compare to f-16.