Pakistan Keen To Purchase F-16 Fleet From Norway: Mukhtar

[Storm Force]

Just imagine in 2020

A fully loaded F16/52 with 2 Amraams and 4 wvr missles AND jammers with RCS of 2m sq with apg68(9) radar ( from a paf fleet of of over 120)

Flying into into LOC air space

Over indian air space 2 FGFA PAK FA with a RCS of 0.2msq low observable design carrying 6 internal RAMJET R74 long range BVRS. The Aesa radar tracks upto 300km due massive nose cone. The engine a brand new 3 dimensional TVC is a upgrade on the current su30mki equipped ALF31 TVC engine.

The FGFA are 2 of 25 in service with IAF

ASK YOURSELVES who will win this engagement.

Donmt be to quick to dis the PAK FA

 

[BATMAN]

^^ And than you woke up.... and started crying.

2020!!!!!! please wakeup.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Rain and thunder it shall be my friend...

ameen to that!

 

[Rafi]

^^ And than you woke up.... and started crying.

2020!!!!!! please wakeup.

You sir, have a wonderful sense of humour, it is likely that the indian version of the FA if and when inducted will not carry the same tech as the Russian version.

It is a fact that the Russians will not share their best technology with the indians.

 

[Storm Force]

rafi

its known fact that the SU30MKI is superior to any russian Flanker bar the brand new SU35.B

due to israeli french cockpit jammers electronics etc.

 

[silent hill]

^^ And than you woke up.... and started crying.

2020!!!!!! please wakeup.

impression from indians T20 WC dreams

 

[BATMAN]

Niaz Saheb
No one here is totally in the know. We all come here to discuss options that we think might be more suitable for PAF. No one would deny the efficacy of F16s pre 2020. However there does not appear to be a credible date for acqisition and given the time frame for F35 distribution it could be well past 2015-18. Then they would neeed to be checked out perhaps by LM which might mean a further delay of upto a year. So in short we are looking at getting F16s in 2020.
The point of contention is not what they will provide, but what we can produce in house and with Chinese help in the same period.I know we have been dissuaded from buying western avionics and weaponery due to cost and quality considerations and have turned to the chinese products. Now when we feel that J10 is going to be a good product with 3-5 yrs development, and the engine issues would be resolved, and our own product would have advanced sufficiently, what will we get from MLUed F16s that we cant get from these 2 options.
The third consideration is purely strategic. No one amongst us will deny that US attention span post 2014 towards pakistan would vary from mild interest to fickle at best. Now we have reduced an order of new planes to go for an equivalent chinese offer, and then we will go for MLUed Bl15s in that time period.This is what is confusing me.
Lastly is a mute point about our own industry which we should be projecting. What signals are we sending to the world when while on the one hand we are trying to go from pillar to post trying to sell the aircraft and then begging Norway for their retired planes. We should have enough confidence in our own industry to produce and develop our own plane to matching quality,considering we have long since been harping about the fact that our thunder is in the region of a Bl40 capability wise.
It is on the basis of the above thought process that I have put my arguments against this purchase.
Araz

Hi, I see that you missed the point in what you have quoted to your above reply.

1- Cost Issues: A new JFT of PAF standard may cost around $30million.
While grounded F-16 may cost max. $15 million and both a/c are comparable in characteristics.
Gains from stuff like Eurofighter has no justification, so people shall think rationally.

2- Battle Ready: We already have expertise in flying and maintaining F-16 and while we already have blk-52 which are going to serve us for another 15 years. So we'll be maintaining those skills and any new F-16 in PAF inventory will be on mission without clocking hours for training exercises.
It is better to hang AIM120 on a/c rather than keep them in shelf for expiry. So costs will be saved towards weapons as well.

3- Maintainence: Actually, skill issues is more sensitive towards maintainence staff.
Their experience grow and so does the availability of fleet.
Spares ratio as compare to the fleet comes down and so is the cost of inventory. In worst case scenario we can even afford to canabalise any of F-16.

JFT will not loose any thing, it will be available to the world post 2012 and at half the cost of F-16.
Buyers don't make their opinion based on assumptions.
They even can fly the machine.... remember PAF had been flying Grippen.

Now, the highlighted part... i didn't get your point but soon i'll post a link about our discussion on subject matter.

Here you go:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/31901-avionics-thunder-western-chinese.html

 

[TOPGUN]

I know there are alot of haters / trolls out there and perhaps here as well... but what we all need to understand for the million of time is that PAF is a defensive force and damn good one and thats proven JACK. Furthermore, several Pakistani members and several indian members like to play in a fantasy world as some you kids like to call it wet dreams one must understand that we can not and must compare our selves with the IAF that goes for both parties.... what PAF is doing is best for them selves to safeguard the land and people of Pakistan and iam sure whatever India is doing is the same why go back and forth playing like little kids now for the ones hating that Pakistan might get this or that keep hating you are only hurting your health it won't change anything and the same can go for the ones that thinking likewise for the India stop this bs its old now grow up people.

 

[notorious_eagle]

I dont agree that a F16/52 can live with a TYPHOON or F18 super hornet or in deed a Gripen NG. All 3 or these mmrca have Aesa radars and RCS EQUAL TO LESS than third of the FALCON. Not to mention fat better engines with more thrust and power.

If you want to compare one on one than compare it with the Desert Falcon, no point of comparing these fighters with Block 52 because it lacks an AESA radar. I was talking from PAF's perspective in terms that it will be backed up by several other multiplier assets. Considering how deadly effective JHMCS would be with AIM9X, lets see the Typhoon dodge that with its superior thrust to ratio oh and yes Typhoon is still not fully Multi Role . Super Hornet, USN Aviation and USAF regularly exercise and their are no reports which state that Super Hornet dominates the F16's. The F16 is a better dog fighter and a legend when it comes to Air to Air and Air to Ground roles, its success speaks volumes of its legend. Gripen NG, is that even operational . You are just randomely making up this up that F16 cannot stand its own against the SH, EF or Gripen NG. Its not backed up by any substance, just tall claims.

Engine wise the Russians already prouduce TVC engines ie SU30MKI

I dont know how is that important but can the Russians produce a low observable engine like the PW F119, just look at the shape of the Raptors engine and compare that with PAK FA engines.

If you look at the SU30MKI the reason it ranked higher than any other flanker in the world bar SU35 is the israeli/french influence on the mki cockpit interface and jammers.

Well we will see if the Russians let Israelis or the French come close to their latest technology, because anything the Israelis know the Americans will find out. Oh and please dont bring in SU27 because during the 1990's they purchased these planes and performed extensive tests on them, so they already know the SU series inside out.

2 OF WORLDS LARGEST ARMED FORCES (russia & india) are about to invest $10 billion to make it get their.

And the Americans spent $60 billion on the development of F22, the only other country that can come up with cash like that is China. No offence but Russia and India combined do not have the same economic muscle as the US or China.

Over indian air space 2 FGFA PAK FA with a RCS of 0.2msq low observable design carrying 6 internal RAMJET R74 long range BVRS. The Aesa radar tracks upto 300km due massive nose cone. The engine a brand new 3 dimensional TVC is a upgrade on the current su30mki equipped ALF31 TVC engine.

First of all we are not sure what PAK FA's RCS is, and second the F16 would be backed up by extensive radar coverage so it will be aware of PAK FA's location. As far as BVR weapons are concerned, i would put my money on the AMRAAM any day over Russian BVR's.

 

[fatman17]

^^by 2018-20, the chinese J-20 5th gen will also be flying - what makes one think it wont be in PAF colours!

 

[MastanKhan]

There is everything going for F-16. PAF has had about 20 years operating experience with F-16 and know just about everything that F-16 can or cannot do. We also have trained ground staff (IMO as important as the pilots). This gives us the capability to maintain the aircraft flying despite its age.



Hi,

It is clear from the post that nothing works better than a battle proven system.

Seems like if paf could afford to and if there are no restrictions attached---they might have a go at majority F 16 air force---. Paf is mentally sold on this aircraft---so it might yet be the mainstay of the air force.

A ferrari is a Ferrari---new or old---you can't replace it with a hyundai---and can't ask the hyundai to perform like a 30 year old ferarri. Even an old Ferrari will out do 95 % of the newer cars on the road.

F16 has set the standards for what fighter aircraft should look like, be like and perform like.

Young people please listen and learn---there is no replacement for a battle proven system---there are no seconds.

You people can't seem to get it that war birds cannot be just put into service like that against a very aggressive and well equipped adversary---it will take years and years of modifications and training to create a mean fighting machine out of them.

 

[PAFAce]

I know there are alot of haters / trolls out there and perhaps here as well... but what we all need to understand for the million of time is that PAF is a defensive force and damn good one and thats proven JACK.

There is no such thing as a defensive Air Force. It's like calling a sword or a machine gun a defensive weapon. It's defensive capabilities are simply a result of its offensive force.

I think a better phrase would be minimum deterrence. Minimum deterrence is not a choice or an option, it is a necessity. If the PAF could, they would go way beyond minimum deterrence and build a full-on offensive force, much like the path the IAF is trying to take or like the USAF. The USAF, for example, doesn't wait for their perceived adversaries to go ahead and counter their current capabilities before it begins work on newer ones; they push ahead and let the rest of the world try and catch up. However, with limited resources, we cannot think about going ar beyond it, hence the "minimum" part.

These F-16s are a great way to add to our offensive punching power, and hence enhancing our deterrent force. However, we must get out of the "defensive" mindset. It's time to start thinking beyond 2022/23, when the PAK-FA may very well be close to deployment in the IAF. What are we going to do then?

Maybe only possible option (which is bound to be unpopular on this board) is to divert funds from the F-16 and JF-17 programs and invest in the J-XX or the fictional JFX-17?

 

[Aamir Hussain]

As far as Norway is concerned -- I do not think that we would have to wait until they switch over to a newer a/c. They already have f-16's in storage - they can be handed over for MLU.

If we can gather the whole Mirage fleet from the rest of the world and spend money on upgrading them -- than the F-16 option does not look bad considering that this platform is still being supported by the manufacturer.

US Marine Corps. is using 40 year old platforms today with constant upgrades.

JF-17 definitive version is still to materialize -- no one is suggesting that stop work on it -- I do not think that PAF will do that either. Meanwhile, in the interim what do we do? Just sit back and relax and wait for J 10B/C to materialize -- PAF have asked for modifications including power plant and avionics including radar systems. That will take time.

The options on the table for the interim are:

-Continue with Mirages for the next five years -- accident rate is going up
-Continue with F-7 versions -- accident rate has always been higher -limited functionality
-Ask US for EDA transfers and MLU them and get an interim fighter with good capability. After having said and done all it is the user who has the ultimate say so and it seems PAF is eager to continue with the platform.
-Buy used F-16 from Norway, Belgium, and Holland etc. and get them MLU'ed.

The strategy is simple.

Replace F-7 & Mirages with currently in-use platform with support available with relatively low payout from the exchequer (In case of EDA) with low absorption time into the force.

Build with China a core base of Med performance (JF-17) and high performance J-10 to take us through the mid of next decade. This is how long it is going to take to refine and integrate both platforms and induct them in numbers that can make a significant contribution towards our air defense.

Please do not forget that it does take a while for the pilots to refine and hone their fighting skills and tactics on a new platform with each new version or upgrade ofthe platform.

The things we are discussing here have a timeline of three to four years. the planning is for a 2015 force from PAF perspective.

 

[Super Falcon]

it might be good but remeber our ministers talk alot and in few days that agreement they will throw in bucket and forget it foreer as U 214, J 10 and song class subs are examples

 

[TOPGUN]

But thunders seldom cause any damage...rains create havoc

Yes my friend so make sure you stay undercovers...