Pakistan is interested in turkish MILDEN submarine project.

[Yasser76]

It's realistic target to have around 50-60 including midget subs by 2045 and it includes the once already in service

You want Pakistan to have the third largest submarine fleet in the world!!!????

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Yep that's what I wrote as well. The design has been settled, it's based off the Turkish REIS (214) project, straight from the Turkish defence experts and navy personal.

Though the PN's interested in the MILDEN, I think we're actually looking at the Navy's efforts for its own submarine design. Like the Jinnah-class frigate, one option could be to work with Turkey to re-work one of its MILDEN proposals into the next Khalid-class.

When we first saw this image, we all thought it was STM's miniature SSK proposal to the PN. But if we take a closer look, it seems to be a scale model of the TS1700.

Of course, if that's really the case, then I think we might see a design proposal from the Chinese too (e.g., ideally a single-hull with waterjet propulsion).

STM TS1700

 

[waz]

Though the PN's interested in the MILDEN, I think we're actually looking at the Navy's efforts for its own submarine design. Like the Jinnah-class frigate, one option could be to work with Turkey to re-work one of its MILDEN proposals into the next Khalid-class.

When we first saw this image, we all thought it was STM's miniature SSK proposal to the PN. But if we take a closer look, it seems to be a scale model of the TS1700.

Of course, if that's really the case, then I think we might see a design proposal from the Chinese too (e.g., ideally a single-hull with waterjet propulsion).

View attachment 707870

STM TS1700
View attachment 707871

That's an option but I feel the navy has too much on its hands at the moment to concept design and deliver a new submarine. The best use of time and resources would be the Mildem, as in looking to replace the Agosta 90's.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

That's an option but I feel the navy has too much on its hands at the moment to concept design and deliver a new submarine. The best use of time and resources would be the Mildem, as in looking to replace the Agosta 90's.

I can't help but feel that in a month, you'll say, "Look, MILDEN is just too far out there, I think the Navy should just order the Reis-class." You've always wanted the Type 214.

 

[GumNaam]

Question is why are we investing so much in submarines?
Not that I'm against it but what's the logic behind this?

simple - one submarine armed with nuclear anti-ship cruise missile and/or nuclear tipped torpedoes can keep the largest carrier fleet in the world stranded helplessly in the middle of the ocean regardless of how many submarines the fleet itself has protecting it. In the command of a good commander, a single submarine can sneak past all the protecting attack submarines and surface just a mile away from the aircraft carrier, fire a few missiles and/or torpedoes and then dive into the oblivion of the ocean leaving the fleet crippled with a sinking carrier.

 

[Aryeih Leib]

I can't help but feel that in a month, you'll say, "Look, MILDEN is just too far out there, I think the Navy should just order the Reis-class." You've always wanted the Type 214.

Question is would germans approve such sales ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Question is would germans approve such sales ?

Yes.

 

[Aryeih Leib]

Question is would germans approve such sales ?

Yes.

In august there was news about german denies upgrades for pakistani subs ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

In august there was news about german denies upgrades for pakistani subs ?

They reportedly denied engines for the Hangor-class submarine, yes. But that was probably due to the Chinese involvement and/or the fact that Pakistan walked away from a previous Type 214 deal in 2009-2010.

 

[Tipu7]

On spot...

Though the PN's interested in the MILDEN, I think we're actually looking at the Navy's efforts for its own submarine design. Like the Jinnah-class frigate, one option could be to work with Turkey to re-work one of its MILDEN proposals into the next Khalid-class.

 

[Incog_nito]

First PN needs to complete the current project with China and then consider the idea of the new submarine acquisition.

 

[Incog_nito]

I think at the moment PN should join Turkish with Germans on the T-214 Project in order to induct approx 8 T-214P Submarines till 2030.

Although, PN is inducting 8 Chinese submarines but they also need to get some German ones too.
As PN back in 2008 / 2010 was considering license production of the 8 T-214P, this idea should be brought to life again.

 

[PAR 5]

After getting those 8 subs by 2028, Type 54As, Turkish Milgems, 10 lineage jets , I doubt there will be any money left/dedicated for PN before 2035

The 8 Chinese Subs and T-54As are on deferred payment schedules. So PN is not paying huge amounts for them now.

Turkish MILGEMS are being only paid for the structure and navigation systems. Other armaments and sensors will be installed post induction.

Only 1 Lineage Jet has been acquired so far. Remaining jets and conversions is yet to happen if it does really in the next 5-10 years

Trust me when I say this, PN though doing good on acquisitions is now facing the penny pinch severely!

 

[araz]

More about the Mildem;

Turkey operates the second-largest submarine fleet in NATO. Currently all of them are imported designs, but that is set to change. The program to build the first indigenous submarine has been formally launched. Known as MiLDEN (Milli Denizaltı), six of the new boats should join the fleet in the 2030s.

The move comes at a time many defense deals with Turkey are under the spotlight, with the U.S. cancelling sales of F-35 fighter jets to the country and taking away its production role in the program over Turkey's decision to acquire Russian S-400 air-defense missiles. Turkey also has ambitions to be more self-sufficient in defense, building indigenous frigates and main battle tanks. It even has a railgun project.

The new submarines will have Air Independent Power (AIP), which will allow them to remain submerged for much longer than traditional non-nuclear submarines. Contrary to popular belief, AIP is used to power the electric motor which turns the propeller, not to charge the batteries. The batteries are reserved for silent running and high-speed dashes when the AIP alone is not enough.

Turkey;s 12 current submarines are all based on the German Type-209 family. The plan has been for these to be partly replaced by six of the more advanced Type-214TN model, also from Germany. The Type-214TN submarines will be known as the Reis Class and, like many previous Turkish submarines, will be built locally. The project has suffered from serious delays however and is not expected to join the fleet until the 2020s.

The MiLDEN program will take years more of research and development. In the meantime the local shipbuilding industry is gaining experience by upgrading three of Pakistan's submarines. These were built in France so, together with the construction of German-designed boats, Turkey is gaining a broad awareness of submarine design.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidh...mystery-unmanned-vessel-really-a-chinese-spy/

When the Pakistani submarines reenter service they may shoulder the nuclear deterrent in the form of nuclear-tipped cruise missiles. Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has suggested he’s interested in developing nuclear weapons, saying on September 4 that "Some countries have missiles with nuclear warheads, not one or two. But [they tell us] we can’t have them. This, I cannot accept." The role of Turkey's submarines in any future nuclear deterrent is unclear.

Either way, Turkey occupies a strategic location on the eastern edge of NATO. It controls the Bosporus, a narrow waterway between the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Crucially, under the 1936 Montreux Convention other countries' submarines are forbidden from passing through the Bosporus. For example, this means that Russia cannot use its submarines based in the Black Sea for operations off Syria.

Turkey To Go Its Own Way With Submarines

Turkey operates the second-largest submarine fleet in NATO. Currently all the boats are imported designs, but that is set to change.

www.forbes.com

Seems like the Mildem will take inspiration from the most advanced 214 from Germany. That's fab.

I have marked a section which I think is pivotal in the lines along which both Turkey and Pak are thinking. Link this with the Hangor development and I think you have-an answer on the lines along which collaboration will go. I think the collaboration will be along the lines of a larger sub capable of launching a couple of CMs which is a capability both Pak-and Turkey want. Nuclear collaboration is NOT BEING DISCUSSED here. Also look at the date when first platform will-be produced and you will see the future-planning of-PN taking shape.
However I think the newer iteration will a variant which will be an off shoot of 214 but larger and perhaps more lethal. My own thoughts so feel free to disagree
A

Being a nuclear power, we ought to have a nuclear submarine. We need to complete the Nuclear Triad (not talking about launching of nuclear capable cruise missiles from the diesel electric subs).

Disagree. We dont have and SHOULD NOT have any EXPRESSED designs of regional proje tion of force. Boomers are possibly not in PN picture for the moment.
A

 

[waz]

I can't help but feel that in a month, you'll say, "Look, MILDEN is just too far out there, I think the Navy should just order the Reis-class." You've always wanted the Type 214.

We've gone past the German point years back, and as much as I like the 214 they'd want a direct buy and would probably refuse the export order from their sides to to the Turks.
No, the Mildem is the way forward.