Pakistan is in a debt (death) trap

[ThunderCat]

You were talking about religious minorities not ethnic minorities. Turkish state is somewhat intolerant towards non-Turks irrespective of religion

Alevis are very much Turk.
Shias are very much Turk.

You can't open URLs over there in India?

You can't read English? Show me the premise of their "tolerence." Tell me those articles are wrong.

 

[nahtanbob]

Calling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_genocide as intolerant is akin to telling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson didn't like Indians much.

that was 100+ years ago.

the massacare was bad. of course Turkish denial is worse

 

[epebble]

that was 100+ years ago.

the massacare was bad. of course Turkish denial is worse

Their present target of hate are the Kurds.

 

[nahtanbob]

Their present target of hate are the Kurds.

no disagreement here

Their intolerance is based on ethnicity not religion

 

[Zibago]

 

[ThunderCat]

@nahtanbob , any explanation for "turkish tolerance." Since opening URLs is unaccessable in Bangladesh with the limited Internet connection there.

From the links I posted:

"The nation of Turkey is often praised for being a secular role model for other Islamic societies. It is claimed that the land of Turkey is a beacon of hope and that democracy and secularism can exist within a mainly Muslim nation state. But is this based on reality?"

"So if secularism means having the right to crush Christian minorities, moderate Muslim minorities like the Alevi, and ethnic minorities like the Assyrians Armenians, and Kurds, in modern day Turkey, then it is not the secularism which I support. Turkish secularism is tainted by this overt nationalism and the Sunni orthodox mindset means that religious inequality is the norm."

"The rights of Christians and the Alevi Muslims are not equal in today’s Turkey. In recent times many Christians have been murdered. For the more numerous Alevi Muslims, it is clear that they face huge discrimination. Secular Turkey is a myth because under the surface we find a different Turkey based on preserving the dominance of orthodox Sunni Islam."

"To see how Turkish military "secularism" works in reality, go and see Northern Cyprus. In 1974 the Kemalist "secularists" occupied it. They destroyed all vestiges of ancient Christian culture there. Churches, monasteris , chaples were all robbed and changed into mosques, stables, latrines, bars or levelled to the ground, cemeteries desecrated. In every village new splendid mosques were built with imams calling the Turkish Moslems from Paphlagonia or Cappadocia for 5 daily prayers and Quranic schools. All of this has happened with permission and direct encouragement of the all=powerful "secularist" occupation army. If this is what 'secularists' do when they have power to do whatever they wish, then don't tell me Turkish fairy tales of good "secularists" fighting bad "Islamists". They work together to achieve the same goal with different means."

 

[epebble]

Pakistan has to reduce it expenditure and learn to live within its means.. and of course, actually get the middle class and wealthy to pay taxes !!! ( novel concept for pakistan )..

reduction of the defence spending, increase spending in education to stimulate growth would be good ideas too...

There is also a question of tolerating diversity of thought and ideas, sine qua non of a modern society. Religious nationalism by definition can be very intolerant of diversity. I think many high-level officials were not appointed due to being of the wrong faith or sect.

Charting Pakistan's Path Beyond Religious Nationalism

The marriage of religion and nationalism has the potential to sow discord and fuel extremism. Pakistan ought to shift towards a civic nationalism that unites

thefridaytimes.com

 

[HerbertPervert]

View attachment 955058

Sindh (With PPP)

Sindh (Without PPP)

 

[nahtanbob]

@nahtanbob , any explanation for "turkish tolerance." Since opening URLs is unaccessable in Bangladesh with the limited Internet connection there.

From the links I posted:

"The nation of Turkey is often praised for being a secular role model for other Islamic societies. It is claimed that the land of Turkey is a beacon of hope and that democracy and secularism can exist within a mainly Muslim nation state. But is this based on reality?"

"So if secularism means having the right to crush Christian minorities, moderate Muslim minorities like the Alevi, and ethnic minorities like the Assyrians Armenians, and Kurds, in modern day Turkey, then it is not the secularism which I support. Turkish secularism is tainted by this overt nationalism and the Sunni orthodox mindset means that religious inequality is the norm."

"The rights of Christians and the Alevi Muslims are not equal in today’s Turkey. In recent times many Christians have been murdered. For the more numerous Alevi Muslims, it is clear that they face huge discrimination. Secular Turkey is a myth because under the surface we find a different Turkey based on preserving the dominance of orthodox Sunni Islam."

"To see how Turkish military "secularism" works in reality, go and see Northern Cyprus. In 1974 the Kemalist "secularists" occupied it. They destroyed all vestiges of ancient Christian culture there. Churches, monasteris , chaples were all robbed and changed into mosques, stables, latrines, bars or levelled to the ground, cemeteries desecrated. In every village new splendid mosques were built with imams calling the Turkish Moslems from Paphlagonia or Cappadocia for 5 daily prayers and Quranic schools. All of this has happened with permission and direct encouragement of the all=powerful "secularist" occupation army. If this is what 'secularists' do when they have power to do whatever they wish, then don't tell me Turkish fairy tales of good "secularists" fighting bad "Islamists". They work together to achieve the same goal with different means."

Their intolerance pales in comparison to the excesses of Iranian revolution

 

[epebble]

Their intolerance pales in comparison to the excesses of Iranian revolution

I don't think Iranian revolution was particularly violent, definitely for non-Iranians (beyond the 1979 hostage crisis). Though much is made of Iran's perfidy, I don't think they have hurt too many non-Iranians. The worst violence was the Iran-Iraq war, which killed mostly Iranians and Iraqis. I am open to correction.

 

[HerbertPervert]

There is also a question of tolerating diversity of thought and ideas, sine qua non of a modern society. Religious nationalism by definition can be very intolerant of diversity. I think many high-level officials were not appointed due to being of the wrong faith or sect.

Charting Pakistan's Path Beyond Religious Nationalism

The marriage of religion and nationalism has the potential to sow discord and fuel extremism. Pakistan ought to shift towards a civic nationalism that unites

thefridaytimes.com

Religion itself is not the problem. You will find far more tolerance and harmony amongst religions in Iran or even Saudi Arabia than you would in relatively less religious Pakistan. The issue is with law & order.

TLP mobs can run amuck, destroying cars and burning property. Try that in Iran or Saudi Arabia, you'll find your head come clean off. You need the stick or "danda" in Pakistan.

 

[epebble]

Religion itself is not the problem. You will find far more tolerance and harmony amongst religions in Iran or even Saudi Arabia than you would in relatively less religious Pakistan. The issue is with law & order.

TLP mobs can run amuck, destroying cars and burning property. Try that in Iran or Saudi Arabia, you'll find your head come clean off. You need the stick or "danda" in Pakistan.

I think the author is arguing that politics of religion has driven away (or even killed) people with heterodox views resulting in the leadership being filled with duffers. You see that in the grave of physicist Abdus Salam being defaced while the man who invented 'Water car' lauded as Pakistan's Steve Jobs.

 

[ThunderCat]

Their intolerance pales in comparison to the excesses of Iranian revolution

A country where non-Muslims could not own property, bank accounts, build places of worship, paid taxes beyond their financial capacity while Muslims Kurds were exempt form this, is a country the opposite of intolerance.

You don't seem to be well informed on anything.

 

[nahtanbob]

A country where non-Muslims could not own property, bank accounts, build places of worship, paid taxes beyond their financial capacity while Muslims Kurds were exempt form this, is a country the opposite of intolerance.

You don't seem to be well informed on anything.

lot of non-believers visit Turkey with no trouble from the Turkish government, We cannot same the same for the Iranian government.

I don't think Iranian revolution was particularly violent, definitely for non-Iranians (beyond the 1979 hostage crisis). Though much is made of Iran's perfidy, I don't think they have hurt too many non-Iranians. The worst violence was the Iran-Iraq war, which killed mostly Iranians and Iraqis. I am open to correction.

You are generally right. Other than exporting revolution to a few Shia areas of Middle East Iran has refrained from actions against non-Iranians. The violence against Iranian dissenters of any kind was extreme. Lately they have gone soft.

 

[ThunderCat]

lot of non-believers visit Turkey with no trouble from the Turkish government, We cannot same the same for the Iranian government.

How does that negate anything I mentioned? Lots of non believers visit and even live in Saudi Arabia, including Europeans/Americans. So it became a hub of "tolerance?"